| Author | Message | ||
     Jammin_joules |
Ford is looking at selling Volvo to the Chinese. Although Ford hasn’t resolved concerns about protecting intellectual property, it is sounding like a strong likelihood. Any buyer would gain insight into Ford’s future products, which will still share Volvo technology and mechanical vehicle designs, the people said. Ford will continue to provide engines and other major components to Volvo after it’s sold, which is why the intellectual property issues need to be resolved. To us outside, Buell is far less integrated with Harley than Volvo to Ford where they share platforms, engines, a design release process, future product insight, common customers, etc. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&si d=a95ZNr0A49j0 I would have thought out of both respect for the brand and potential cash value, Buell could have been sold. "  Chinese mfr.] “Geely has the potential to be a responsible future owner of Volvo and to take the business forward while preserving its core values and the independence of the Swedish brand,” Ford Chief Financial Officer Lewis Booth said. Ford has no plan to retain a stake in Volvo and has “no specific timeline” to conclude the discussions, it said. " The hundred + million$ Harley wrote off could have been delayed and a portion used to maintain the Buell line while a suitor was found, IMHO. Geely first approached Ford about buying Volvo in the summer of 2008, people familiar with the matter had said, and the Chinese company emerged as the frontrunner. Ford also talked to Beijing Automotive Industry Holding Co. and the Crown Group, led by former Ford director Michael Dingman, son James Dingman and Shamel Rushwin, a former manufacturing and labor executive at the automaker, the people had said. Ford had considered keeping the Swedish unit, whose losses are narrowing and sales are improving, people familiar with the situation had said. With Volvo’s prospects improving, Ford thought it may get a better bid for the luxury line when the economy improves, the people said. } | ||
| Tramp |
Are you suggesting that it might be advantageous to sell Buell to a Chinese interest? | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
I don't think he's talking about the buyer, I think he's suggesting that HDI's line of Buell being too integrated with HD to be able to sell is pretty lame, and I agree. Another example is BMW selling off different parts of Rover while keeping Mini. That included selling Land Rover to Ford after they'd put in a lot of investment and updates to Land Rover product. | ||
| Xl1200r |
Volvo has their own dealer network, their own customer service center, their own advertising, etc. Buell has none of that. I, too, agree that HDI should sell of what can be sold off, but the line about it being too integrated isn't total BS, just mostly BS, lol. | ||
| Larryjohn |
I really don't buy the "we're too integrated crap." Everything has a price. HD could sell the brand with nothing else and it would be up to the buyer to figure out how to address the gaps. I personally feel there is another reason for not selling the brand, but I have no clue what that is (kick in the balls, plan to restart the brand in the future, who knows) | ||
| Tpoppa |
'Too Deeply Integrated' is corporate double talk. Spinoffs and mergers are common. I can understand if Harley wants to keep the XB motor in house, but they should sell everything else. HDI is either not ready or not willing to sell Buell. | ||
| Rainman |
Damn. Volvo to the Chinese. BMW F650 using a Chinese-made engine in the cheapest Beemer. Is nothing what it used to be? What do we build? How do our people survive when our jobs are elsewhere? How can American companies be profitable if no one can buy even the cheapest Chinese product because no one can afford more than food and rent? | ||
| Swordsman |
Dealers don't seem to have any problem whatsoever getting out of Buell. I doubt it would take very little incentive to convince the remaining few to part ties, especially considering the dwindling stock. Whoever bought Buell would be responsible for warranty and parts. H-D is spitting so much BS you'd need a bulldozer to shift it. ~SM | ||
| Tpoppa |
If HDI sold Buell and sales and support improved. Could HDI's ego handle the blow? | ||
| Rfischer |
BMW does not source motors or hard parts from China. They have a deal with Kymco, which is a large Korean mfr. A very sophisticated company with deep engineering and manufacturing expertise. | ||
| Gentleman_jon |
I 100% believe that Buell is too integrated into HD, for HD to sell it. But that's only because HD management is so incompetent, not because of any other problems. If HD had any decent management they wouldn't be in the trouble they are in caused by making subprime loans, they would have never bought MV, and they could spin off Buell in a minute. If they really knew what they were doing, they would keep Buell, and give it the resources it deserves. If they really knew what they were doing, they would have gotten an experienced motorcycle man to run the company. But alas, they don't, so they won't. Real pity, because none of these problems are the least bit difficult to solve. | ||
| Nik |
BMW does not source motors or hard parts from China. They have a deal with Kymco, which is a large Korean mfr. A very sophisticated company with deep engineering and manufacturing expertise. Kymco is based in Taiwan (Republic of China, not to be confused with the PRC!), not Korea. They know how to build a quality product. | ||
| Chadhargis |
HD could sell Buell, then maintain a vendor agreement for a number of years. Selling them engines, training, and support. This would remove the downside, and provide only upside for them. They would get the money from the sale of the name, patents, logos, etc....then get ongoing income from selling engines, parts, etc. Eventually the new owners could get their own parts facilities set up, and establish their dealer network, but if they failed, then they would take the hit, not HD. It would be a true "win/win". It would save 180 hard working people's jobs, help a small town, make a bunch of loyal customers happy, protect HD's assets and stock prices, and give someone the opportunity to grow the brand. Where's the downside?? | ||
| Spatten1 |
Not much to sell with Buell. A proven product with a Harley engine, that doesn't make money. A rotax powered modern bike, that doesn't make money. Buell does not sell a lot of bikes. If you are a manufacturer like Polaris, How much would it cost to just hire the engineers? Not a lot. When does Erik's contract run out, in another year? Why spend money when you can just hire and sponsor the talent? An investment group will never buy a company that loses money and has no dealer network. | ||
| Spatten1 |
I think it all makes sense until you look at it from an investor's perspective. There are much simpler and more productive ways to invest money. | ||
| Doerman |
Following your logic, Volvo should just shut down? | ||
| Andymnelson |
The thing that people keep missing is that HD WILL SELL BUELL! It's not that they won't...they will take the write-offs this year, sell the assets next year. Pretty simple concept actually. My guess is that they won't sell BMC as a whole, because of the integration. BMC is an engineering and manufacturing house. Everything else, from marketing to sales to dealer support is done by HD. What's left? The facilities and the IP...which is what will get sold next year. Ironic isn't it? People have been parting out Buells for years because they are worth more in pieces than they are as a whole...now the same will happen to the Motor Company... | ||
| Spatten1 |
Volvo sells many units all over the world. Volvo designs and builds their own engines. Volvo has a dealer network. Volvo has a huge base of loyal buyers. With Buell you have to build half of a company, a new buyer base, and then turn around the financials. Volvo was successful worldwide on a standalone basis for many years before being acquired. Buell is no Volvo. Dude, if I know one thing, it's what corporations and private equity look at in investments. I do it for a living. Could Buell be sold? Whoever buys is takes on liabilities with no income. There is no huge potential for profts after things get turned around until they build it into a bigger company, with the buyer's money. They would probably have to pay someone to take it, but pay less than they will lose winding it down, thus coming out ahead. | ||
| Doerman |
So John Bloor did the impossible. | ||
| Spatten1 |
John Bloor did not buy a factory that was making products and losing money everyday. John Bloor did not buy an ongoing financial liability. John Bloor bought a trade name. John Bloor went to Kawasaki and paid for engineering so he could start from scratch. The Buell name and IP could be sold, just as Andy said above. Nobody in their right mind would buy a design house that is losing money, as Andy said above. You are taking this personally. It's not about how great your Buell motorcycle is, it's about business and profits. Money goes to where it will get the best return (theoretically). | ||
| Tramp |
You have to remember that Volvo was around as a stand-alone auto manufacturer since the 1920s (a little longer if you consider their start as a bearing mf'r.) , with their own long-lived powerplant design, etc. Ford essentially absorbed a very, VERY old car company. HD purchased an extremely young company from one of their own ex-engineers who gained fame for using their powerplant (not his own) in a sporting machine. The XB, etc., series exampled a logical and parallel evolution of Harley's preexisting design. After Ford all-but-destroyed Volvo by going to FWD transaxles and transverse engine configuration, the marque experienced some hard blows....killing their original, loyal fan base and providing potential new converts with a restyled/rebadged taurus that cost far more than a badged ford auto. The difference between the two situations could hardly be more pronounced. The modern Volvo represents a turd that is unlikely to take any polish while the Buell represents a prematurely-shortened rising star that could easily be destroyed by a Ford-esque purchase. | ||
| Tramp |
....and, yes, I am aware that Erik began with metric engines, note that I state Buell *gained fame* w/HD power. | ||
| Swordsman |
"John Bloor did not buy a factory that was making products and losing money everyday." Did anyone ever come up with numbers to prove this? I've seen arguments for both sides saying it was failing AND it was successfully treading water. What was the final verdict, or does anyone truly know? If you're relying on what H-D management claims in their press releases, I think you have to take that with a whole shaker of salt. ~SM | ||
| Doerman |
You are taking this personally No, not at all.. I just love arguing with accountants!  I a previous career,I was put in charge of a company in the above situation (continued losses and facing Ch7) . Lo and behold, against the bank's accountant's better judgement, the company got sold after a ch11 turnaround. The (most) employees continued with the buyer. Had the accountant had his way, the bank holding the loans would have lost $1.3M in the ch7 asset liquidation. I know, all situations are different. | ||
| Swordsman |
The modern Volvo represents a turd that is unlikely to take any polish"  ~SM | ||
| Spatten1 |
Buell represents a prematurely-shortened rising star that could easily be destroyed by a Ford-esque purchase. It is unusual for a large company to not ruin what is good about the smaller company they buy. Generally because of the arrogance of the larger company's people, thinking they know better because they are bigger. | ||
| Spatten1 |
I ain't no accountant, I'm in finance. | ||
| Court |
>>>>>Real pity, because none of these problems are the least bit difficult to solve. Accurate | ||
| Chadhargis |
Given the brand name, the logo, the recent racing success and media buzz, and intellectual property associated with the non-HD components...a savvy investor should be able to market Buells very effectively. Someone looking to buy a company and bask in the profits is not a good investor for Buell. But someone who has the passion of Erik and company, along with a big enough bank roll, could EASILY turn a profit. Every day that passes by gives less of a chance for a successful standalone BMC. I'm betting the Buell closing will be front page on every motorcycle magazine in the country soon...and possibly many foreign ones. A savvy businessman would levy that into a springboard to bring the company back to life. How many articles have we all read about Indian coming back? Given that Buell doesn't "make" anything...they only design, engineer, test, and assemble things....all the parts can be sourced. The frames, wheels, forks, shocks, swingarms, controls, and even the engines are all sourced components. I can tell you, if I had the money and the connections to build a dealer network, I'd be knocking on HD's door to buy Buell. It's all about perspective. Like the story of the two shoe salesmen. One went to a third world country and didn't sell any shoes. His boss asked him why and he said, "No one there wears shoes". The next sales guy goes to the same place and became a huge success. When asked how he did it he said, "It was easy, everyone there needed shoes". There is no question that Buell motorcycles are some of the best in the world. Not on a spec sheet, but on the road. The way they handle, the way the feel. A good businessman could take a quality product and make a fortune. Even mighty HD started out in a wood shack making bicycles. Then were owned by a sporting goods company. They had their rough times, but thankfully AMF saw fit to sell them and we see the success they have achieved. Now they need to pay it forward, and do the same to Buell. Harley...never forget where you came from or how you got there. Karma is a beyotch. | ||
| Rpm4x4 |
People can split atoms, I pretty sure Buell can be split from HD.  |
