| Author | Message | ||
     Koz5150 |
I would love to read the report on that and know the specifics of the test. It doesn't add up up with everything else I have read. Besides if the stock 1125r is that good, how come it has never been used in a liter bike shootout like the 1098 was last year in Sport Rider? | ||
| Koz5150 |
the creation of a purpose-built American Superbike racer by the American firm comes at a time when riders and fans alike are growing more and more disenchanted with the DMG-controlled series. This is what I am talking about | ||
| Fresnobuell |
This Koz guy is a self-admitted casual race fan. Apparently he has read some internet article and probably supersquidplanet drivel and decided he is the authority on Buell racing. I wonder if the guy has even watched an AMA race. I for one am glad he won't get a test ride on a 1098r or 1125rr as he would probably hurt himself. | ||
| Whitetrashxb |
someone should put a match to this thread!  | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
A little off topic for a thread that's gone off topic, but... Are the japanese 600 supersport (race-replica, whatever you want to call them) bikes really made at a loss? They're big sellers here, almost as much as the litre bikes. | ||
| Koz5150 |
This Koz guy is a self-admitted casual race fan. I am guessing most of the people on this board are the same. I base my decisions off the best data I can gather. Since I am no race expert myself (I have done a couple track days though) I look to the experts and magazines to help form opinions. Fresno, I supose you are the kind of person who doesn't believe anything anyone else says? You look on the ground, see a piece of crap, you read that it tastes like crap, but would rather taste it yourself before realizing you just ate crap? I am with Lemonchili, I see a ton of 600's, literbikes, RC51's, and Hyabusas on the road. I can't imaging they are all sold at a loss? I guess i will have to look that up too since I make an attempt to back up my opinions with data unlike many of the statements I have read here. | ||
| Koz5150 |
BTW, please don't kill this thread. It is a great way for Buell to read what all potential customers have to say. I have been on Badweb for 6+ years and if you go back and look at a number of my 2,300+ posts you will see that I have always supported Buell while challenging them to take on the bigboys. American underdog takes on the Big 4 and beats them at their own game, not in a race series where they are give preferential treatment and clear advantages. | ||
| S1wmike |
American underdog takes on the Big 4 and beats them at their own game, not in a race series where they are give preferential treatment and clear advantages. I have posted earlier and watched and read the fallout, but what seems to be an issue with you is this illegal allowances for Buell to modify their bikes to allow them to be competitive in the series. Outside of the chain drive conversion , which in my opinion is also a safety issue. the mods you are so driven to point out are for the 1125RR that was approved for AMA American Superbike not the Daytona Sportbike 1125R (the 600 class). You seem to be comparing apples and oranges. (Message edited by S1wmike on October 09, 2009) | ||
| Chadhargis |
I am for challenging EVERYTHING. Never accept anything at face value. When I first heard the DMG DSB rules, I was a little confused. But once I watched the racing, it was awesome. I've done several track days at Barber, and I watched Danny and wondered why he wasn't faster on that track. There are no long straights, and he should have had the advantage coming out of the corners, but he didn't. Strange. I'd love to see a showroom stock racing class with a dollar cap on it. Bring whatever you want to the track, as long as it's under $20,000. I've seen tests where a 600 beat a 1000 on the track. I remember a few years back when some moto mag tested the Gixxer 600, 750, and 1000. The 750 spanked them all. A big HP number doesn't equate to a great bike. | ||
| Crackhead |
i would rather see the dsb series become a true showroom floor series with only easily available bolt ons. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Fresno, I supose you are the kind of person who doesn't believe anything anyone else says? Of course I will listen. I always consider the source, however. Either you get it or you don't. Unfortunately, casual fans don't get it. They look at displacement as the sole factor of race worthiness. They can't be blamed as racing classes have always been tied to cubic centimeters. It's a damn hard thing to go against the grain on this one. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
i would rather see the dsb series become a true showroom floor series with only easily available bolt ons. Then 1125r already fits this description for the most part. The Japanese factories would have a fit. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Koz, here is a famous anony post. I suspect that anony (wish I knew who it was as it shows REAL knowledge) knows much more than either you or I. Anonymous Posted on Friday, August 07, 2009 - 07:21 pm: -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ The stupidity of the magazines publishing this stuff is amazing. Not only do we not know what the power to weight is, but power to weight doesn't remotely tell the story on a roadrace course. There is so much more to a motorcycle than these morons write. I'll list three items and there are many more. 1) Just regarding power to weight, the conclusions of "unfairness" are ridiculous and uneducated. First of all the heavier bike will be at a disadvantage in every area except acceleration. Duh. The power doesn't help going into corners and the extra weight on the identical spec tires hurts braking and in corner speed. 2) Then, the impact of power drops off exponentially with speed when CdA takes over. So a heavy bike with a higher CdA would be slower into and through the corners, quicker once it gets out of the corners but then drop off and likely get passed on the long sraightaways. 3) A high inertia engine is wonderful for street tractability, and great in the wet, as the wheelspin is lazier and more controllable. Hmmm, wonder if that's why there were four Buells in the top ten at Road America in the rain? But crankshaft inertia is a disadvantage on a dry race track in the hands of top pro riders who ride with lots of wheelspin. Where traction is high, greater inertia hurts spin-up speed of the rear tire when setting a bike up to turn with a sliding tire. You can spin it up biut it's less responsive to do quickly, so your best bet is to break it loose early and hard under braking then keep it lit. With spec tires this means your tires will get fried earlier, and your ability to modulate the throttle and spin is slower too. Hmmm, sounds like Danny at Laguna, eh, if you watched the race with an interest in actually seeing what was going on. 4) (I know I said 3 but I had to throw in a bonus, but there are many, many more attributes at play in a motorcycle than these) As we said before, high engine inertia makes a bike mellow on the street as it keeps the bike from being jerky on and off the throttle, keeps dust or water on the road from being as much of a problem. But it makes a bike harder to snap right left through S type turns on a race track. The only way to get through these turns is to short shift and drop the rpm, but then the bike won't accelerate off the corner. So, what we are seeing is a race class that takes this complexity and differences in motorcycle design into account, and allows rules juggling as more information about the different bikes' performances comes in. And lo and behold, we have a great series, with 6 brands and significantly different types competing for the wins. These people who are tainting the great racing with truly uneducated "technical" comments like "What about more power" need to go back to school. Yes Danny has an acceleration advantage, but he was nearly ten MPH down on top speed to the Hondas on the long back straight at Road America. Did he whine about that? No. Don't you think it must frustrate him when the lighter bikes can outbrake him and block the smooth line he needs to take to minimize inertia effects, or drive around him in a corner later in a race after his tires are fried? Sure, but he never says "Well I could have won if those other guys weren't allowed lighter bikes" | ||
| Koz5150 |
I would love to see a Dollar cap showroom floor series. That would be awesome. I think of NASCAR and don't see any relation to Stock car anymore. Win on Sunday, Sell ???. It no longer fits since there isn't a single piece of that car found on a stock vehicle. However stating that the 1125r ($13,000) and the 1125rr ($39,995) are different only by a few bolt ons seems to be a bit of a stretch. | ||
| S1wmike |
However stating that the 1125r ($13,000) and the 1125rr ($39,995) are different only by a few bolt ons seems to be a bit of a stretch. From what I have read in this post you are the only one with confusion on the Buell bikes. I have not read to the contrary and most everyone else has been trying to point that out to you. | ||
| Fast1075 |
I like this thread...it's a virtual biatch-slap... | ||
| Blake |
Koz, Your ignorance of the tech rules and the difference between the DSB and SBK rules explains your confusion. In head to head comparison, the 1125R does VERY well against anything off the showroom floor that Ducati can offer. The aforementioned track testing where the lower peak HP 1125R bested the Ducati is a perfect example of that. The idea that you'd dismiss reality in favor of spec sheets is peculiar. As to your comments, you seem to be stuck on wanting Buell to produce racing machines first, street bikes for us second, just like the Japanese do with their loss leader 600cc repli-racers. Why would Buell want to lose money like that? Can you please explain? Buell produce around 12,000 motorcycles a year. They don't have the production to absorb an entire new model of money losing purpose built racing machines turned street bike. That is !#@$ing idiotic. And you want them to switch to the same pathetically gutless IL4 600cc engine as all the Japanese factories? That is the most foolish thing I can think of for any sport bike manufacturer to do. If anything, I'd say Buell needs to move their product towards being more upscale and exotic. It is utterly bewildering to see American racing fans so completely brainwashed by the Japan Inc propaganda. It's really sad too. 1. 4 cylinders performs better, why wouldn't you use that format for your engine? Because an IL4 600cc engine SUCKS for a sportbike street engine. It is utterly gutless until the revs climb near five digits; Buell street bikes are about big broad tractable power bands, the type of real world performance that makes a motorcycle more enjoyable to ride on the street, in the real world. Buell builds around 12,000 street bikes and cannot afford to mass produce a money loser, race winner or no. 2. 10,500 max? maybe we should tell everyone not to rev higher then that since our inferior engine can't go any higher Don't get stuck on stupid. Again the issue is one of a built from the ground up for racing engine versus a street bike engine. DSB is a street bike class. Japanese factories have rigged racing and inundated the racing world with their bullshit propaganda that HP/cc is the only valid gauge by which to measure performance ever since they started building race bikes that suck on the street. In my view, they've ruined the spirit of the street bike racing series the world over. DMG is changing that. Boo-hoo for the Japanese factories. If you want to compare engine tech, then skip to MotoGP; that is where the exotic race-only engines need to be, not in a street bike class. AMA DSB is street bike based racing intended to allow as many different configurations of machines race head to head as possible. So long as the racing is fair and there is parity among all the competing machines, that is all that matters. If the Japanese want to build an actual street bike that fits into the class, then they are welcome to do so. DSB is not a displacement limited class. Get over it. 3. Our bike is inferior and overweight I think you must be talking about yourself, not any Buell I've ever ridden. You cannot be that ignorant. Anyone who characterizes Buell motorcycles as "inferior" is certainly no Buell enthusiast. Despite having a significantly higher minimum weight limit, the 1125R won the championship, how is it "inferior"? 4. Give us an advantage, we want to race with a tool that was not built to race??? Write the rules for a street bike class to achieve parity and close exciting racing among a large collection of differently configured sport bikes, some built from scratch to win races but that suck on the street, others built to be the best possible street going sport bike but that are not optimized in HP/cc for racing. Koz, I gotta wonder, after seeing some of your derisive and antagonistic comments, Why are you here? You come off like an A#1 jackass with some of your statements. You think the 1125R is "inferior"? It is true that anything with a lower HP/cc output is seen as "inferior" to the idiot racing fans of the world. Well then you are left with the whining little two strokes as your only accepted racing engine platform. And really, if you stand by your comments that Buells are "inferior" then you should sell your Buell immediately and go purchase yourself something different that you deem superior. You've gone WAY beyond expressing your opinion that only like sized engines should be competing against each other in AMA Pro Racing competitions. You've launched into a Buell bashing the likes of which I've not seen in a long time. That is very poor form and not something that is ever appreciated here. Why do it? | ||
| Blake |
Back on topic: After reading the most recent issue of Sport Rider and their article about the 150 1098R Bayliss editions that will be sold stateside, I've become curious.. On the track, the 1125RR would eat it for lunch. The 1098R Bayliss edition is not close to the Ducati Corse Superbikes raced in WSBK or ASBK. It is a street bike. Sure, it's a lot closer to SBK than the 1125R, but it is still a street bike. On the street, the 1125RR loses; it is not legal for street use. | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
I think Blake ended this debate. Nuff said? | ||
| Bads1 |
Ignorant,idiotic and Jack ass. Thanks Blake for confiming those statements well. Now can I use them from time to time my friend??? Come man man Koz has been here a long time. And yes he is entitled to his opinion on the bikes. Hes not bashing a member of the forum. Or am I missing something?? | ||
| Chadhargis |
In the end, none of it matters. I'm not a professional racer. I can't use any modern sport bike made in the last 20 years to its potential. The 1125 is WAY too much motorcycle for me and 90%+ of the population. Would another 20hp make me a better rider? Nope. Would a prettier fairing make me a better rider? Nope. All I know is when I throw my leg over my 1125 and go ride, I'm happy as I can be. I love it. | ||
| Bads1 |
bingo to that | ||
| Koz5150 |
I agree the 600s are ground up race bikes adapted for the street I agree that Buell motorcycles are better street machines then 600s. They are more comfortable, have better ergonomics, and the engines are designed to perform well in the urban envirement. That is why I have owned one for the past 7 years. I also believe that Buell motorcycles make better trackday bikes for the average motorcycle rider (like myself). The broad torque band makes them easier to ride, I know from first hand experience. HOWEVER, no matter how much someone does some crazy Kung Fu math to calculate that a 1125cc rotax powered Buell is equal to a 600cc Kawasaki or a 1000cc rotax powered Aprilla (and it may be technically accurate and correct) it still will always appear to look like a HUGE advantage for the Buell to the average spectator. BTW - Buell may have 200 people working at "the factory", but they are not a little company. They are a part of a Fortune 200 company, Harley Davidson. And I would think after years and years of the Big 4 trying to emulate HD models it would be super sweet for Harley to take the fight right back to the competition and beat them on the big stage. You think a victory by a Nicky Haden ridden Buell at Indy or Laguna Seca wouldn't sell some bikes? Why do you think Toyota entered NASCAR? It's just a matter of time before they win a series championship. That's how you change an image and get the world to take notice. | ||
| Koz5150 |
Also, I gotta head back down to Racine and grab a beer sometime again. It's been too long. | ||
| Blake |
Koz, Buell Motorcycle Company stands on its own. And it is what it is, 200 hard working, innovative Americans in East Troy, Wisconsin. They certainly have no ability to steal money from HDI or HDMC. What you might happen to wish is inconsequential. And no matter, the size they are now, Buell doesn't have the resources to responsibly achieve what you are wanting, not if they hope to also keep their business growing and profitable. It takes a HECK of a lot more than just money to create a brand new racing machine. And did you know that the Japanese 600cc repli-racers are money losers for the factories? What you seem to be stuck on is feeling sorry for the ignorant folks who don't understand the difference between a purpose built designed from day one racing engine versus a street bike engine. How about instead of campaigning on behalf of the ignorant, try educating them. The Japanese 600cc engines are as close to MotoGP tech as exists in a street bike. In race trim they put out upwards of 150 BHP and the bikes reach speeds of 180 MPH. Don't believe it? Scale that 150 BHP up to the 800cc MotoGP engine size, you get 150BHP*(800cc/600cc) = 200 BHP. If the 1125R engine was developed to the same level, it would rev to 15,000 rpm and in stock form be putting out 200 HP, 240 HP in race tune. It doesn't. It is a street bike engine that is designed and configured not for the track, but rather to run optimally below 10K rpm for maximum benefit on the street. The Japanese 600cc repli-racer engines are designed and configured from day one, first and foremost for racing, to run optimally above 10K rpm and to respond spectacularly to allowable racing class modifications (decking of heads, re-timing of cams, optimization of exhaust and ECM). To top that off, the Japanese 600cc repli-racers are loss leaders; they don't earn a profit for the factories. Why would you demand Buell, a company of 200 people, be forced to adopt those same idiotic (my view) standards for their street bikes. It would harm them significantly and truth be told, such an effort is not feasible if Buell is to continue to develop their profitable street bike lines. | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
"Buell Motorcycle Company stands on its own. And it is what it is, 200 hard working, innovative Americans in East Troy, Wisconsin. They certainly have no ability to steal money from HDI or HDMC." No, it really doesn't. The XB series was a mutual effort between HD and Buell. Court himself can tell you that HD engineers took up shop in East Troy. Without HD, that bike may not have been around, with out HD, Buell as we know it may not be around. You do know that the profits made by the XB series directly funded the innovation and devlopement of the 1125 series? Without HD's investment and purchase of Buell, EB's garage may still be his factory. | ||
| Blake |
Buell Motorcycle Company stands on its own. Yes in fact it does. The HDMC/Buell partnerships on the XB engine and the XBRR engine are/were partnerships between engine vendor and motorcycle builder, no different really than that between Rotax and Buell wrt 1125. "Without H-D Buell may not be around..." You are getting off track. That is not the issue. We all know that Buell as a company was aided by H-D purchasing them. The issue raised was whether or not Buell is able to take money from them to develop a new 600cc repli-racer to compete with the Japanese. They aren't. Not that they would anyway. LOL. Anyway, in that line of reasoning, Buell now stands on its own and is unable to procure money from H-D, either HDI or HDMC, to throw into a new 600cc repli-racer project to compete against the Japanese. | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
If HD could justify a 600 project as viable to making them money, you sure as hell better believe they'd give it to Buell. Hell, they already supply the dealer network, financing, parts distribution and up till this year, marketing. But that's not Buell taking their money? If Buell truely stood on its own, there'd be a Rooster in Slicker's garage today. | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
While I agree Koz has mixed up a few things between the DSB and Superbike rules and the bikes raced in those classes, I can generally read between the lines and get the idea of some of what he's saying. Something along the lines of... Buell have recently decided to market themselves as company which primarily concerns itself with sportsbikes and racebikes, and the release of the 1125RR has cemented that focus. However I believe you can argue that it seems odd that with this new focus Buell do not currently sell a street-registerable bike which is a pure sportsbike (ie along the lines of a GSXR or 1198). The start of this thread, comparing a 1098R to an 1125RR, illustrates my point in an indirect way - one is a racebike with slicks, one is a street bike, so can they really be compared? Would it be fairer to compare a race prepped (and more expensive) 1098R Bayliss to an 1125RR? What do Buell have to compare with a 1198 streetbike? I hope, and assume, this will change in years to come and Buell will back up it's marketing and release a pure sportsbike model which, while it will probably be not as good as a *street* bike, will be a great track day bike, and a suitable base for SBK. This bike will be directly comparable to other companies products and not have to suffer debates about being in an oddball racing class. (Disclaimer - I have read many comments about DSB and it sounds like great, close racing, and I am very proud of Danny Eslick and Buell for their first AMA road racing championship. I do however still believe that DSB is a weird U.S. series.) Blake - you have said more than once that the Japanese 600's are loss leaders. Really? The 600's have always seemed built down to a price more than the 1000's. What makes you say they lose money on them? I would also like to have a little gripe of my own... People are often saying the 600's are designed first and foremost for racing. I must admit I've never seen a race bike that can last 8000 miles without an oil change, 16000 miles without valve clearance adjustment, meets noise and pollution emissions and starts first time at the push of a button, let alone has a starter motor. While I agree that they are designed with racing in mind and to take advantage of FIM and/or AMA Supersport rules, and they incorporate a lot of racing technology, they are much more a street bike than say something like a TZ250, don't you think?  The current 600's are amazing bikes. Maybe not great street bikes, and I hate it when people suggest them to novice riders, but they are very impressive pieces of hardware. (When I was younger I used to always moan that street bikes like my RD250LC, or bikes like the early GPz600R's were so far behind then current race bikes. If I was 21 again I'd LOVE a current GSXR600  ) cheers, chili | ||
| Blake |
Chili, I see the point and agree that about the oddity of the situation. The Japanese manufacturers themselves have stated that they lose money on their 600cc repli-racers. They themselves also state and even advertise that they design racing machines first and make them street legal second. I think that is even one of Suzuki's major marketing mottos. I agree that they've done a good job in streetbike their racing machines. Any machine that must reliably last for 200+ miles of racing at Daytona and is detuned for the street is likely going to be darn reliable. |
