| Author | Message | ||
     Buellinachinashop |
I wonder if Buell would use a LC V4. Harley has been rumored to be at work on that very motor. | ||
| Blake |
"When you tell me a bike with 1125cc's beat a bike with 600cc's it looks like a huge mismatch." Try removing the blinders. When you tell me a bike with 4 cylinders beat a bike with two, it looks like a huge mismatch. When you tell me a bike with a 17,000 rpm maximum engine speed beat a bike with a 10,5000 rpm max engine speed, it looks like a huge mismatch. When you tell me a bike with a 360 LB weight beat a bike with a 390 LB weight, it looks like a huge mismatch. When you tell me that a purpose built racing machine beat a bike built for the street, it looks like a huge mismatch. | ||
| Blake |
When you tell me that a racing machine from a HUGE Japanese factory that has been developing and racing for decades beats a bike from a small relatively young company of 200 people, it sounds like a huge mismatch to me. | ||
| Not_purple_s2 |
Displacement is NOT the absolute in terms of power. Really?? aren't GSXR600's and SV650's pretty evenly matched.... I mean I figured that the SV would have the edge with that 50cc advantage. Aprilia, Buell, and Ducati just need to man up and build some 600cc twins that can compete with the I4's... right?  | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
Harley has been racing, albeit not with great results, for years. There's people in Buell racing who have had experience with Harley's race efforts. Erik for one. | ||
| Koz5150 |
Blake, I don't disagree with a thing you said above. What I am saying is if I had to buy a trackday only bike, Buell would not be on my list. Since Buell has decided to use the "Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday" strategy to sell their bikes, I just feel they should build bikes that are competitive with the other retailers. Maybe they should build a Buell with an I4 engine? If the rest of the bike is so advanced, match it up with engine technology that is of the same caliber. | ||
| Koz5150 |
1. When you tell me a bike with 4 cylinders beat a bike with two, it looks like a huge mismatch. 2. When you tell me a bike with a 17,000 rpm maximum engine speed beat a bike with a 10,5000 rpm max engine speed, it looks like a huge mismatch. 3. When you tell me a bike with a 360 LB weight beat a bike with a 390 LB weight, it looks like a huge mismatch. 4. When you tell me that a purpose built racing machine beat a bike built for the street, it looks like a huge mismatch. 1. 4 cylinders performs better, why wouldn't you use that format for your engine? 2. 10,500 max? maybe we should tell everyone not to rev higher then that since our inferior engine can't go any higher 3. Our bike is inferior and overweight 4. Give us an advantage, we want to race with a tool that was not built to race??? sounds like 4 more excuses | ||
| Court |
Makes me glad I work with the folks I do . . . . man . . if I mired in this type of negativity all day I'd go zonkers(er). Engine displacement is but a single element in output. But hey . . . it's the Internet and you already knew that. I keep trying to imagine the result if folks at Buell listened to all this silliness and actually tried to to build an "Internet Committee Bike". | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
LOL, Court. I'm finding it amusing that some are attempting to argue with posters that are in agreement. Reading comprehension is a lost art. | ||
| Chadhargis |
I just sold my GSX-R600 for an 1125CR. I HATED the 600. It was a gutless unless you rung it's neck. On the track, you had better keep it on the boil all the time or risk getting run over. Miss a shift, and you're hosed. It was a very difficult bike to ride. I'm sure most of that was my skill set, but it was hard to ride for me. The 1125 is awesome. I've not ridden a liquid cooled Ducati, and I'm sure they are very nice. When I can find a brand new 1098 Streetfighter for what I paid for my 1125CR, then I might consider one. Until then, I'll ride my "inferior" bike and enjoy it. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
sounds like 4 more excuses Yeah Buell. Why don't you go the Beemer route and copy the IL4 to go racing? Why can't people get past engine size? Like Court stated---it's but ONE of many factors when it comes to how fast a motorcycle can get around a track. } | ||
| Koz5150 |
I would hope that Buell doesn't get all their research from the internet. Voice Of the Customer is important though. Anyway, I as I stated before I would choose the 1098s on the following criteria Looks = Duc - way cool paint job Price = Duc - I can't purchase the Buell as I don't have a race license Dealer Network = about even at this point Performance = Duc - engines are similar, but the traction control on the Duc is sweet. History = Duc - 25+ years of Buell is cool, but the reliability issue is still there (see all the FI issues of last year) Long Term value = Duc - have you priced a used Buell lately? | ||
| M2nc |
Koz, You posted a horsepower chart from the Motorcyclist "Oddball" comparison. You are aware that in that comparison the 1125R turned the fastest lap times, right? Yes, down 20rwhp and it was faster on the road course than the Ducati. In fact every time lap times are taken, the stock 1125R has beaten the Ducati (848, 1098S,). Just keeping it real. (Message edited by m2nc on October 08, 2009) | ||
| Koz5150 |
I believe this is the quote you were refering too: "If the Buell’s power deficit wasn’t obvious on paper, hammering the bike around the Big Track made it quite clear. Numerous times I had the throttle pinned exiting Turn 9 and just couldn’t help but note the Buell’s unwillingness to rev quickly. “Lethargic acceleration down the front straight” was how Captain Kevin described the Buell’s power when struggling against the infamous desert winds that often plague Willow. Nevertheless, Kevin admitted he had his best session of the day on the 1125R thanks, in part, to the Buell’s “softish motor that allowed full-throttle corner exits.” He added that the 1125R would make a fine endurance-class racer." Not exactly a glowing review of the "fastest" bike that day. Instead it shows that it was a good bike with a weak motor. | ||
| Danny_h__jesternut |
They had to slow the 600's down so Buell could compete evenly? Detuned the old FX bikes didn't they? Not realy full on race built 600's are they.  | ||
| Boltrider |
Koz - you say you would choose the 1098 but have you test ridden any of the bikes on that dyno chart? It has been said on here many times that a test ride is the best way to sell a Buell. They don't sell based on a spec sheet. (Message edited by boltrider on October 08, 2009) | ||
| Koz5150 |
Seeing that I probably won't be allowed to take either one out for a day at the track (1125rr or the 1098s) nor do I have the $40,000+ reqired to buy either of them I would say no, I haven't and probably won't get that opportunity. But then again I would guess 95% of the people in this forum wouldn't get that opportunity. | ||
| M2nc |
If your going to tell it, tell it all. "Our 1125R test unit had its issues, but handling wasn’t one of them. We talked former Willow Springs superhero, Curtis Adams and his five FormulaUSA championships, into circulating the “Fastest Road in The West” with us on a blustery late-spring day. There were no surprise comments from him after his time on the race-like Ducati, but he was jubilant about his time on the Buell. “It was way more fun than I expected it to be,” exclaimed Adams. “You kind of draw some conclusions before you ride it. Maybe it’ll be clunky or maybe a little cumbersome, and it’s absolutely the opposite. It has a very sporty, twitchy feel. It doesn’t have a steering damper and you kind of feel that, but you’ve got a real secure feeling with it.” In this comparison the 1125R flat out handled the Ohlins equipped $20,000+ Ducati. Also note that Ducati never allowed the standard 1098 to be compared with the 1125R. My guess is that they wanted a stacked deck in this comparison, but even with all the aces they got spanked. | ||
| Boltrider |
So you're making a theoretical purchase decision based on a spec sheet and a Buell that has been out for a couple of months? | ||
| Court |
On the bright side . . . Buell has never had their credit shut off by their vendors and not been able to ship parts.  I mean . . . as long as it's a pissing match. | ||
| Elvis |
I'm afraid this is just devolving into silliness. Ducati has more racing history, more racing experience, better performing bikes, etc. etc. etc. They're Ducati for cripe's sakes. But Buell is closer than they've ever been and Buell has been making leaps and bounds while Ducati has been basically maintaining their standard of excellence. . . . and, if you intend to spend less than $15,000 and you want the best performing twin, you only have one choice. The 848 was eligible for Sportbike with a 250 cc advantage over the 600's, but no 848's even cracked the top 20. Sure there are $22,000 Ducatis that can outperform $12,000 Buells, but if it's unfair to compare 1125 cc buells to 600 cc Japanese bikes, isn't it equally unfair to compare a bike that costs $10,000 more? As a consumer I'm a lot more concerned with performance per dollar than I am performance per cc. | ||
| Svh |
Wasn't the whole point of this thread a theoretical purchase question Boltrider? Until someone messed it up... I love this place! | ||
| Geforce |
Phillip...look what you did. Shame on you. | ||
| Boltrider |
^^ I have no idea. Whose on first? | ||
| Koz5150 |
So you're making a theoretical purchase decision based on a spec sheet and a Buell that has been out for a couple of months? I think that was the whole intension of this thread right? However, I could see myself being able to purchase a liter bike like the R1 someday which has better performance numbers, is street legal and available to the common man. In this comparison the 1125R flat out handled the Ohlins equipped $20,000+ Ducati. Also note that Ducati never allowed the standard 1098 to be compared with the 1125R. My guess is that they wanted a stacked deck in this comparison, but even with all the aces they got spanked. The Duc in that comparison was a true 1098 (2008). The current 1098r (the $40,000 one being compared to the 1125rr in this thread) has the newer 1198cc engine DTE traction control. 180 hp at the crank and performance numbers on par with the other 1000cc bikes from the big 4. I don't see Buell in that catagory anytime soon without a different powerplant. | ||
| Geforce |
Pkforbes... he started this thread. Response was aimed at him. While I'm here again... I'd take the 1125RR. I don't think I could justify affording either... but if I could. The RR would be "Very Nice!". | ||
| Boltrider |
I thought I saw that Eslick's bike is around 150 hp to the wheel, which would put it at 170-180 at the crank. His bike isn't an RR either.
My whole point here is that you don't KNOW enough about the RR. I haven't seen any published power numbers for a 1125RR, yet you say they are down on power. But we don't know how much, do we? What if it's down only 5 hp? Only the Buell factory people know the answer. (Message edited by boltrider on October 08, 2009) | ||
| Koz5150 |
My whole point here is that you don't KNOW enough about the RR. I haven't seen any published power numbers for a 1125RR, yet you say they are down on power. But we don't know how much, do we? What if it's down only 5 hp? Well, considering according to the rules in the series it was designed to race in states it is supposed to be "stock" I would assume it should be the same HP as the 1125r... Unless Buell is bending the rules for some reason??? Here is the end of an article comparing street versions of the bikes in the DMG. "While the rules are a bit hazy, which seems to be intended as such from DMG, there’s no doubt anyone observant can see the advantage Buell has; easier to push harder, more steam coming off the corners and is better on tires. Plus, the added weight given to them, at least at this point, is nothing more than a press ploy. Not to mention, where most seem to think the Inline-Fours have a major advantage in corner speed and the Buell gets it back coming off the corner, we found in stock form the Buell is right on par with the Kawasaki mid-corner, leaving the Inline-Fours with little-to-no advantage. In fact, when it came to the ease of changing direction, the Buell is superior to the lighter Kawasaki. As a result we would have to say the real losers here are the fans, the motorcycle industry and the riders on anything other than a Buell. We all want close racing and no one is against having an American manufacturer in the series, but let’s at least make it fair. Even in the Aprilia's case, the Buell has a definite advantage. What would we do to make things more equal? Air restrictors on the Buell to keep the HP down, or even more weight than currently outlined could possibly slow it down. But maybe we are focusing too much on restricting the Buell instead of empowering the others. I say allow the 600s to user lighter aftermarket wheels to aid in acceleration and fickability. This would help close the gap while still not adding excessive costs. As for the Aprilia, from our view this could be the toughest fix. I think if the KWS team were able to get the bike's weight down it could be competitive as is, but this is an issue that stems from the stock RSV1000R, not a DMG rule issue, and would take large piles of cash to achieve. Hence, I say allow the Aprilia 1mm overbore to give them slightly more displacement and some much-needed power (this would be cost effective as well), and then make them adhere to the same minimum weight as the Buell. Sounds complicated, I know, but what do you expect when they think 1000cc-plus V-Twins should race against 600s?" If you are interestdd in the whole article looke here. http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/9/3317/Motorcycle-Ar ticle/2009-Daytona-SportBike-Comparison.aspx | ||
| M2nc |
The Duc in that comparison was a true 1098 (2008). The current 1098r (the $40,000 one being compared to the 1125rr in this thread) has the newer 1198cc engine DTE traction control. 180 hp at the crank and performance numbers on par with the other 1000cc bikes from the big 4. I don't see Buell in that catagory anytime soon without a different powerplant. Yes, but in separate comparisons this year at the same track, the 1125R was still faster than the 1198. This is the street stock 120rwhp bike, not the race ready 170rwhp RR. Higbee this year in Super-Twin racing pulled two seconds a lap on a race prepped 1098R, with the current 1198 engine. The DSB prepped single R was already too much for anything resembling the street going 1098R. Now you want to compare it to the double R? You better bring Haga's F09 and pray for a long straightaway. | ||
| Boltrider |
Koz - The 1125RR was built for Superbike, and the Superbike rules allow Buell to modify the bike alot more than in the Sportbike class that Danny Eslick just won. This is from an article on motorcycle-usa.com earlier this season that highlights the differences between the 1125R and the 1125RR: _______________________________________________________ Buell motorcycles has released a racing spec version of its 1125R superbike, dubbed the 1125RR. Built specifically for competition in the AMA’s American Superbike class, the 1125RR MSRP is $39,995 – a full 28K more than its stock sibling. Buell 1125RR The Buell 1125RR will be available solely to AMA racers competing in the American Superbike series. The new 1125RR was actually announced by AMA Pro Road Racing first, reporting this morning that the new Buell was eligible for the upcoming American Superbike races at Mid-Ohio. Now the boys from East Troy, Wisconsin have filled in some of the details with a press release of their own. The biggest changes to the 1125RR are inside its Rotax-built Helicon Twin. The 1125cc engine, sporting an unchanged 103mm bore x 67.5mm stroke, makes use of “a larger airbox and intake manifold, revised valves and camshafts, a higher compression ratio.” Weight is shaved via new titanium exhaust system and 6-spoke magnesium wheels, which replace aluminum stock units. The cast aluminum swingarm is machined with an axle adjustment system and a chain drive replaces the stock 1125R’s belt system (though the current 1125R is already being campaigned with such a chain drive). The new 1125RR also sources a modified rotor for its novel ZTL (Zero Torsional Load) front brake. The suspension remains fully adjustable Showa units, front and rear. The intention of Buell founder and current Chairman, Eric Buell, is clear: “The 1125RR is designed to give privateer racers a turn-key machine to compete in the American Superbike class in AMA Pro Racing. We want to build on our program that has proven so successful for privateers in the Daytona SportBike class.” Related Articles * Buell 1125R Page * Buell Official AMA Road Racing Pace Bikes * 2009 Buell 1125CR First Look * 2009 Buell 1125CR First Ride * 2009 Buell 1125R DSB Comparison * 2008 Buell 1125R Revealed * 2008 Buell 1125R First Ride Not that the $40K pricetag would encourage many sales, but regular riders will not be getting their mitts on the 1125RR. Only a small amount will be built with Buell PR saying: “Buell will produce a limited number of 1125RR motorcycles for sale only to licensed professional road racers who will compete in the AMA Pro Racing American Superbike class.” Racers will place their orders through the Buell Race Department. Given the prior controversy regarding the Buell 1125R’s inclusion into the Daytona SportBike class, the creation of a purpose-built American Superbike racer by the American firm comes at a time when riders and fans alike are growing more and more disenchanted with the DMG-controlled series. (For more information of the DMG situation, read Motorcycle USA’s editorial DMG: Delusional Motorsports Group?) Privateer Taylor Knapp will campaign an 1125RR for his own Taylor Knapp Racing team this weekend at Mid-Ohio. _____________________________________________________________ The article doesn't mentioned it, but the race Buells also have the fully programmable race ECM. I bet the race ECM and race exhaust alone gives the bike an additional 20-30 hp at the crank. (Message edited by boltrider on October 09, 2009) |
