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Zac4mac
| | Posted on Thursday, September 24, 2009 - 12:10 pm: | 
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Best home defense - 18.5" barrel, 12ga, #8 bird shot.
Won't go thru the wall 15 feet away but will leave a 6" hole in the bad guy 5 feet in front of you.
Zack |
Odie
| | Posted on Thursday, September 24, 2009 - 12:42 pm: |
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Safety?!??! What's that? |
Bosh
| | Posted on Thursday, September 24, 2009 - 07:17 pm: |
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Won't go thru the wall 15 feet away
I wouldn't bet on that.... unless your walls are made of brick. |
Sayitaintso
| | Posted on Friday, September 25, 2009 - 08:56 am: |
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#8 birdshot won't go through a regular frame wall (two layers of drywall with a 4" space in between) with enough force to hurt anything ........from 15ft away |
Aesquire
| | Posted on Friday, September 25, 2009 - 10:56 am: |
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I have to urge you not to use #8 shot, or any birdshot. I used to feel that way, but it turns out that you just make an ugly shallow wound, and don't stop the bad guy. Lawsuit city, if he lets you live. Go with #4 buck, or copper BB's absolute minimum to penetrate enough to do the job.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu91.htm
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm
Also, wasp spray is a lawsuit you will lose.
It's far easier to defend yourself against a lawsuit by a dead criminals relatives, than against an evil guy in a wheelchair with a neck brace and a lot of gauze in artistic arrangements. |
Zac4mac
| | Posted on Friday, September 25, 2009 - 11:19 am: |
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Only problem with all that was the statement barrel length has no bearing on load selection and there was no mention of effective distance from the muzzle.
When I was a kid, my uncle accidentally fired a .410 birdgun in the truck.
It ripped a 1/2 inch hole in the floor of a new '57 Apache.
Just in case, a .44Mag Mod 94 Carbine sits next to the 12ga.
That WILL go thru walls tho.
Z |
Aesquire
| | Posted on Friday, September 25, 2009 - 05:25 pm: |
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It's not so much barrel length, as that shotguns, like pistols & rifles, like particular loads.
The M4 short barrel version of the M-16 really loses power & range compared to the 20" regular barrel, but accuracy is not much affected ( may even be better, short barrels vibrate different) and the rifle will still show a preference for certain loads.
In a shotgun, effective distance depends on the load & choke more than barrel length. Each combination (length/choke/load) gives a different pattern. A load that spatters all over an alley from one gun will still be a 6 inch spread from another at, say, 15 yards.
Remember that you are responsible for every pellet that goes down range, so the only way to KNOW what your effective range is is to go shoot & see. You read that shot spreads ABOUT an inch per yard, but that is a really big variable. Contrary to urban myth, you actually have to AIM a shotgun to hit your intended target.
I suggest a row of water filled milk jugs stationed every 5 yards or so out to about 50 yards. Paper targets would give better data, but water filled ones are more fun. |
Bob_thompson
| | Posted on Friday, September 25, 2009 - 08:10 pm: |
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Interesting thread. As I have learned many years ago in my CCW class, most of the time, unless done absolutely correct you will probably get sued by relatives, even if the perpetrator dies especially in more liberal states. Gotta love Texas for the exception. Utah if pretty good also.
With that said, I much prefer my first line of defense for the house pictured below. Usually completely docile loving companion until provoked as you see in our "play" below. He's my ears, eyes and scent detector at night and when my wife is alone. After that is 12 ga. Defender w/#6 shot to start and slugs to finish. If that is not enough my carry piece is a Glock 30. Enough by then. Hopefully a call to my attorney will not be necessary, but I would prepare for it.
And as I have learned from years of personal protection education, AVOIDANCE by all means, is always the best route by being aware of our surroundings at all times and preparation for the worst case scenario. I'm old but I'm not stupid. Bob
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Mr_grumpy
| | Posted on Sunday, September 27, 2009 - 02:06 pm: |
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De50man
| | Posted on Sunday, September 27, 2009 - 03:31 pm: |
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I think it is sad that people would rather kill someone so they won't get screwed in court... and while I believe no one has the right to needlessly end another person life, I completely support lethal force to stop anyone stupid enough to attack them.
One of these days I would like to get the Benelli M4 auto-shotty for home defense, for now it is just handguns and pump shotguns.
By the way Fast1075, the military has deemed that "double tap" is too aggressive, and that "controlled pair" should be said instead :P I guess that is along the same lines as my infantry unit not being able to use flight suits in Iraq because they looked too "forceful".
And practice does absolutely nothing for someone that doesn't know HOW to practice. Perfect practice makes perfect. If you don't know how to fire a weapon properly, train with someone who does or learn via the internet or any other information source you can get your hands on.
Phil |
Bosh
| | Posted on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 05:31 pm: |
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#8 birdshot won't go through a regular frame wall (two layers of drywall with a 4" space in between) with enough force to hurt anything ........from 15ft away
By the entrance hole this looks further than 15' away... but you'll get the point:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQngI_r2hQc |
Bads1
| | Posted on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 05:45 pm: |
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98% of homes are not bothered if it is occupied by a dog or dogs in my case. If my home means that much to come into with my two dogs then it is serious. If the person or persons get in past one they have another to deal with. Usually you never hear to much of cases like that though. |
Aesquire
| | Posted on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 08:02 pm: |
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I think it is sad that people would rather kill someone so they won't get screwed in court...
Sad, isn't it. I refer only to legitimate cases of self defense where dire threat to yours or another's life justifies lethal force. The philosophical point and the reality is your goal is to STOP the assault. You want to save a life, or there is no reason to do more than walk away, right?
Even nastier from a morality standpoint is defense against a gang. When the bad guys tell you ( and you have reason to BELIEVE them ) that they will kill your family, logic says you MUST kill them all to prevent that. The law is not so written.
The current Governor of NY wanted to pass a law that would make it mandatory for State police to shoot to wound. ( back when he was a legislator ) That's insane, and an invitation to massive lawsuit, both from the wounded criminal, and the survivors of his victim.
It's insane because almost no one is able to use a lethal projectile weapon with enough skill & luck to slightly harm someone without killing them, and be sure to stop them. The "graze" of western novels, and the "just a scratch" & "shot gun out of hand" of bad movies, is not reality. People in anger &/or "under the influence" can be killed, and continue the assault until the brain runs out of Oxygen. I have seen many Deer that, after being shot, absolutely had no functioning heart and made 100+ yards on nerve & anaerobic muscle function. The human side of that is why police have nightmares about goblins that are hit multiple times & still murder their wives/girlfriends/etc.
So, if you have to shoot, you shoot to STOP. Absent Star Trek Phaser w/stun function, that means lethal force. My comment Lawsuit city, if he lets you live. is a warning. Police have been killed when they forgot to replace the practice birdshot with social buckshot.
Don't use birdshot. If penetrating walls is an issue, ( apartment dwellers, etc. ) use a bean bag round in a 12 ga. shotgun. I bet it still goes into the next room, and even a slowed bean bag could kill a child. Other than that, anything lethal you can project across a room will endanger bystanders.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
Dog's rock.
(Message edited by aesquire on September 28, 2009) |
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