| Author | Message | ||
     Midknyte |
If Buell pulls the cover off a ZX-14 clone in July, then I will be the first in line to proclaim: "They've lost focus" . . . but I don't think that's likely to happen. But what if they did? And what if they sold a ton of em? | ||
| Midknyte |
I bought my Buell for everything it IS. Amen | ||
| Elvis |
But what if they did? And what if they sold a ton of em? Then God bless. In that case, my next bike might be a Superduke or 1098. You know, while almost all of us would agree that the dealer network is one of the biggest problems, that should be one of their biggest strengths. Think about it. When I bought my Ducati, I got it from a dealer who sold Ducati, Yamaha, Suzuki, Big Dog, and probably a few others that I can't remember. There were dirt bikes next to cruisers next to quads next to R1's. The fact that you're buying a bike from a dealer that specializes in Harley/Buell should be a big selling factor. I think a big part of the problem is that, at maybe 5 - 10 % of the dealers business, nobody takes them very seriously. If they were in a general dealer, they might be 20% of a smaller pie and get more attention. Limiting the number of dealers should be a step in the right direction (and the numbers seem to bear that out as fewer dealers have sold record numbers of bikes over the past 2 years). Growth will help, but it's a catch 22. How can they grow without dealers that will take them seriously, but how can dealers take them seriously when they are so small? I'm optimistic that we're seeing at least some improvement in that area. But Dave S's change of careers was probably the worst news we could have gotten on this front. Hopefully there will be more like him in the future. | ||
| Regkittrelle |
To clarify... My criticisms re Buell are, in fact, targeted at mother Harley. I have never questioned Erik's passion or his abilities, nor those of his staff. He--and they--are being creatively suffocated by The Mothership. Oddly, I understand this. Harley has always viewed Buell as the portal to a younger demographic, but rather than allow Buell to build what a younger demo wants it has dictated that it use a motor that must also be appropriate for the Sportster. Rick... I hope your are incorrect re the new XL being sold here. Frankly, I believe if it were a "Europe only" model a good part of the dealer network would ready the tar and feathers. "Not that he would object to thoughtful criticism but he will get pretty riled up when people say it is incompetence, ignorance or lack of commitment." (See my opening paragraph) Erik has been mightily pissed at me on more than one occasion. And he should be angry, but not necessarily at me. "I'll tell you right now (and I'm betting I'm not alone) that if Buell introduced an XB tomorrow with the KTM 990 engine, I'd be trying to convince my wife that I really do need another bike." So would I Elvis, so would I. But I'd prefer it to be a Buell motor of equal competance. | ||
| Bomber |
Elvis -- thanks for pointing out something that really hadn't occured to me -- that fact that Buell's selling through a distribution channel that is know as best in class, world wide, for creating loyal customers, one might say, rabid customers SHOULD be a strength I know of a number of people that firmly believe that if, for some reason, they couldn't have a Harley Davidson motorcycle, they wouldn't have one at all. While I may not agree with that stance, I stand in awe of an organization that can build that kind of passion. While, clearly, the dealers do not generate that enthusiasm all on their own, the least that can be said is that they don't kill it -- imagine what could be accomplished if, as Reg says, marketing quality was turned around, and, as you suggest, a dealership network interested in the brand existed -- | ||
| Midknyte |
You know, while almost all of us would agree that the dealer network is one of the biggest problems, that should be one of their biggest strengths. I am so unable to relate, and so lucky. Where I live, I can point in five different directions (heck, even ask someone walking by to point in five random directions for me) and there are five HD / Buell dealerships that I would not hesitate buy or get service from within easy riding distance (less than 50 miles, less than 25 for four of the five)... That doesn't help most/any of you, expect to say, it ain't that bad, everywhere... | ||
| Regkittrelle |
Midknyte... I too can point out several good Buell dealers. But the fact that we have to say this at all indicates the range of the problem. | ||
| Blake |
Reg, if we have to go back 37 years for an example to compare to the advancement level of the XB versus its predecessors, is that really so convincing? I agree that it is easier to make greater leaps in advancement during the nascent years, decades even, of a new motorcycle manufacturer. I just read the Cycle World review of the new 2007 Honda CBR600RR. Sounds very impressive. Who would have thought it? Major points touted were that Honda has reduced the rake, shortened the wheelbase, trimmed away 16 pounds, improved mid-range (7,000-10,000 rpm!) power, compacted the engine/tranny assembly, and added an electronic steering damper. All good sound advancements for sure. With the XB Buell trimmed what, at least ten pounds just from the front wheel/brake assembly alone while providing a significantly more powerful front brake to boot, yes? What are some of the other advancements did the XB bring to market? A 52" wheelbase holding a 984cc or 1200cc engine? Wow. A 21" rake. Wow. Molded-in paint finish quality bodywork. Zero adjustment rear axle. Multi-speed, computer-controlled, ducted, forced air cooling system with after shut-down heat anti-heat soak mode. Shedding 40+ pounds. Fuel in the frame. Oil in the swingarm. Meeting 2006 and later 2008 emmissions without catalytic converters. I know you've heard it all before and are all too familiar with the above advancements brought to market by the Buell XB. I'm just not sure--it doesn't seem like you really fully appreciate the magnitude of those features/upgrades. As an engineer and sport biker I was blown away seeing so many concurrent advancements showing up on a new motorcycle. I'm sure I've missed some. Whether or not all of the Buell XB's advancements and innovation are recognized and appreciated by the market is another thing. That they are true advancements however cannot be seriously debated, at least not from an engineering perspective. They all flat work. "Best Cornering Bike", remember that one?  Have you ever ridden on the street an honest to goodness 130 RWHP Buell? I only ask because I have, and it darn near scared the devil out of me. I'm not sure the world is ready for such a beast. Not to mention that such an increase in performance would represent a 40%+ advancement in peak HP compared to the XB12 platform. But again, my little 2 year versus 5 year product development example was only for the sake of discussion. I don't agree that the advancement level factor is academic. And I'm not so sure that the Japan Inc folks don't have some of their efforts tuned to a 5-year plan or at least other than the aforementioned 2 or 1-1/2 year plans. Not the repli-racers for sure, but maybe for some of the other classes of bikes are on a longer duration cycle for development? I agree, very interesting discussion. Sometimes participating in discussion on the internet is like playing golf; just when you think you've had enough and are about to give it up, you hit a great shot or in this case find a great thread. I did finally give up golf though. ![: ]](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/proud.gif) | ||
| Blake |
I'm certainly no expert in economics. I do recognize though that without their 0.1:1 advantage in labor rate, China's economy would be falling onto some seriously hard times. Why do you hold that the service sector is less valuable than manufacturing? I'm a consultant. That's a service, yes? Doctors, scientists, engineers, professors, writers, entertainers, the military, security/police, NASA, medical, psychologists, counselors, meteorologists, journalists, insurance, network managers, legal affairs, mail/parcel delivery, sysadmins, webmins, the airlines, advertising, accounting, and on and on, all service sector jobs yes? I think some folks think the service sector is comprised mainly of janitors and waiters/waitresses. If one isn't involved in producing an actual material product, software included, isn't one likely in the service sector, yes? That's not to say that janitors and waiters/waitresses don't absolutely rock. They do. | ||
| Blake |
I hear the dealership issue raised a lot. I agree that there are issues there that need addressed/improving. I have a question though: Are the Japan Inc, or BMW, or Ducati, or KTM, or Aprilia, or or Triumph dealerships any better on average compared to Harley-Davidson/Buell dealerships? In my experience not only no, but heck no. | ||
| Xl1200r |
I'm partial to waitresses myself... | ||
| Jaimec |
I wish all of the dealerships I've had to deal with were as good as my local BMW shop. | ||
| Wolfridgerider |
From what I'm told by some of my friends that sale H-D and Buells, they don't make jack selling Buells, about 50 bucks a unit. So why would they want to spend a bunch of time selling a Buell when in the same time frame they have spent telling you why low end torque is better than high speed horsepower and that you should spend 2 or 3 more thousand on a American bike, They could have sold a H-D slow sled with all the "CHROME" add ons from the P & A catalog and made a nice junk of change. "My mission is commission, it pays my bills" | ||
| Xl1200r |
All I can say is my dealership is excellent for both HD (when I had one) and Buell sales/service. However, I can say there is another dealer nearby that is lousy at both brands. | ||
| Bomber |
the definition of the service sector IS wide enough that it makes generalizations tough to make accurately -- may be time for the econ folks to make that a lil more granular -- as Blake sez, comparing a waitress to a Sr Software Architect really skews the reporting of economic data as for the dealership question Blake raised, my experince is the opposite of his -- far better customer experience at most other brands than I've had with most Buell dealerships -- like everything else, ya pays yer money and ya takes yer chances | ||
| Regkittrelle |
Blake, I'd like to be able to spend the time rebuttting you, but I don't have it today. So I'll touch on a couple of things. "Reg, if we have to go back 37 years for an example to compare to the advancement level of the XB versus its predecessors, is that really so convincing?" I consider it convincing because it highlights the fact that the required process improvements (and resulting quantum leap in productivity) were put in place decades before we realized the necessity for them. (Maybe we should have listened to Demming). I neither negate nor belittle the advances made by Buell, but I do put them in the necessary perspective. (And please, try to back down a bit with the patronizing; it's beneath you) "A 52" wheelbase holding a 984cc or 1200cc engine? Wow." Why is this so impressive? It's a neat packaging job, no doubt. But it is also proving to not meet the needs of the market as evidenced by the newer, longer WB frames. It is engineering for engineering's sake. "A 21" rake." (I believe you mean degree) This is impressive in that they made it work on a street bike. They could also make a 19-degree rake work, but to what end? "Molded-in paint finish quality bodywork." This is a consumer-oriented advantage that I applaud. "Zero adjustment rear axle." Ditto "Multi-speed, computer-controlled, ducted, forced air cooling system with after shut-down heat anti-heat soak mode." That has failed on occasion and toasted motors (The latest being on a friend's Ulysses). I have trouble viewing this as anything more than an absolute necessity, given the choice of motor. World class advancement? Not even close. "Shedding 40+ pounds." Now we're back to the relative aspect. Call me when the XB weighs in at Gixxer weight. "Fuel in the frame." I've always liked the idea of this, but the vulnerability of the frame (to dents) in a get-off is a big negative for me. "Oil in the swingarm." Ditto "Meeting 2006 and later 2008 emmissions without catalytic converters." Impressive. Also impressive is the excellent gas mileage that these motors return. I view that as an indication of a very efficient motor. "Best cornering bike." I do not believe for a single moment that the Buell deserves that title. Certainly it is an excellent cornering motorcycle, but not the world's best. I have my own 2-mile "test track" here in the mountains on which I routinely try out different motorcycles. The XB (the CityX, specifically) performs quite well, but I can easily beat that time on my Multistrada. A big reason for this is that the Ducati holds a line better on broken or rough pavement (i.e. real roads); the XB often "jumps" to the side. BTW: My best time is aboard a KTM 625 SMC. I have not ridden a 130 RWP Buell, and yes it would be a handful. I have, however, ridden several motorcycle with significantly higher horsepower, and they were as docile as needed. "Why do you hold that the service sector is less valuable than manufacturing?" Did I say that? Don't think so. (And thank you for the education as re just what the service is comprised of.) The problem is not the service sector, per se, but rather the fact that our economy is becoming unbalanced in that the service sector is beginning to dominate the jobs list. If we lose our manufacturing base we become evermore dependent upon the mercurial outside world. Too much of our service sector is in the business of selling and repairing what is made outside of the US. We've a strong economy (Surprisingly so considering the war) but if we view Ford's problem as an anomoly, then it shows we're inhaling sand. Incidentally, my local Chevy/Honda dealer announced today that it's giving up the Chevrolet line as Honda sales far outpace the Bow Tie products. The saving grace of our country, for me, is that the small businesses and private garages of our population house incredible examples of ingenuity, creativity, and craftsmanship. We know what to do, how to do it, and relish the challenges that all that brings. But at the upper levels of manufacturing these essentials get lost... but that's a topic for another discussion. | ||
| Kdan |
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| Blake |
Reg, Are the 52" wheelbases of 250GP machines also "engineering for engineering's sake."  I don't think you realize the magnitude of insult that kind of statement is for the engineers who invested so much of their heart and soul into making that happen. Most engineers don't work primarily for the money; they honestly love what they do. I humbly petition that you please reconsider levying that hurtful accusation. My understanding is that the Buell XB's 52" wheelbase was set as a goal and achieved in order to provide more responsive steering/handling. I can attest personally that it does exactly that to an amazing degree. On occasion, I've endured radiator and thermostat and liquid cooling system plumbing failures on motorcycles as have many others. That anecdotal data in no way invalidates the advancement provided by such systems as they are added and/or improved through the years. The same goes for the XB air-cooling system which is a giant leap ahead of its predecessors. How is it valid in analyzing the performance/value advancement from one production cycle to the next to reject the shedding of 40 pounds?  You've lost me on that one. Using that rationale, no advancement, lest it exceed the performance of all competitors, has any value. That doesn't make sense to me. I thought we were talking about the relative merits of different durations of product development cycles. Didn't mean to patronize. I'm more worried about my spelling and grammar than about offending you.  That said, if I'm not careful, I can come across as very offensive to some/many/all folks, or so I've been told. You could say that the internet has actually taught Blake some tact, not a lot mind you, but some. I did hear that you will be out riding a new Duc 1098 this weekend, so with significant envy, I'll leave you with a hearty, "you suck!" Keep your rubber down. | ||
| Blake |
Almost forgot; you wondered where I got the idea that you viewed service sector jobs as less valuable than manufacturing sector jobs. I gleaned that from your comments that "The unfortunate thing about the GNP is that it includes goods and services. It's unfortunate because the service sector is growing faster than the goods sector. This because we've moved so much off-shore and/or are buying our goods from countries such as China. The GNP is not a good indicator of our domestic manufacturing health. This trend I'm sad to say will not reverse." The emphasis being mine. I wonder how the ratio of service versus manufacturing GNP of America compares to that of China and other nations. Additionally, I can't see how we have more jobs tied to taking care of equipment due to a reduced manufacturing sector. Whether equipment is manufactured in-country or not, we still need the folks to maintain it, yes? Heck, much of what was previously high maintenance decades ago is now throw-away; televisions and other consumer electronics for instance comes to mind. Computers have likely filled that void though. heheheh. Let me know when a Microsoft or Boeing or Apple, or Dell, or Hewlett Packard, or Harley-Davidson spring up in China, meaning as a raw start-up that grows and rises to global market domination. American companies have fought for and earned their position in the free market and I think that makes them stronger and much more agile and competitive compared to those in China. When the wages increase in China, they have nothing over us, nothing. On the contrary, I think they have a huge disadvantage. But heck, I dunno. Call me jingoist or whatever, but I think American enterprise is still the best thing going. | ||
| Regkittrelle |
"Are the 52" wheelbases of 250GP machines also "engineering for engineering's sake." :/ I don't think you realize the magnitude of insult that kind of statement is for the engineers who invested so much of their heart and soul into making that happen. Most engineers don't work primarily for the money; they honestly love what they do. I humbly petition that you please reconsider levying that hurtful accusation. " No, because a 250 GP machine need only carry Pedrosa-sized riders who have no inclination to pillion the spouse, run off to the 7-11 for a sixer, or maybe take a trip that includes a toothbrush and a fresh set of pampers. Hurtful accusation? I don't view engineers as thin-skinned saints. Their job, in the consumer area is to engineer a product that will sell. That's it. And I'm sure any offended engineers won't lose any sleep over my opinion. I spent seven years managing engineers in a computor company. Were I to distill my responsibilities to their essence it would read like this: Tell them when they were finished. Without that edict a true engineer would NEVER bring anything to market because they are never satisfied... or finished. We, you and I, have reached the inevitable impasse that boards such as this specialize in generating: we've agreed as much as we're going to, anything more is just overengineering this subject. Thanx, been interesting. | ||
| Cochise |
See it as wrong or not, but Ford's downward turn has nothing to do with the car. Just like K-Mart's downward spiral that killed a ton of stores is because of Boycott. What boycott? The Christian Coalition because of Ford's hand going out to the gay and lesbian community. Right or wrong it has happened. It also almost happened to Wal-mart over the Christmas holiday when they were going to give a huge chunk of their web based earnings to the gay and lesbian coalition. Wal-Mart backed out of that one. I have ridden the other bikes, 1. R1 pushed me into the tank, nerts were not happy 2. gsxr 750 I thought the clutch was slipping because it took so long for the engine to get to the power. 3. FZ1, snooze. Fast, yes, but didn't do much for me. 4. ZX-9R. I kinda liked that one except for the forward lean and plank I had to sit on. Ok, I haven't ridden all of the other bikes, but so far I haven't found a Buell I wouldn't own (excerpt for uly, too tall for me. | ||
| Spike |
Didn't really want to get into this debate, just had to address this one point:
Wet weights from sportrider.com- '04 XB12R 461lbs '03 XB9R 454lbs '05 RSV-R 474lbs '04 RSV-R Factory 465lbs '05 999R 457lbs '02 998 479lbs '05 RC51 483lbs '98 VTR1000 477lbs '06 SV1000S 479lbs '00 TL1000R 510lbs '97 TL1000S 474lbs While the XB still has quite a few pounds on the GSX-R and other I4s, when compared to other v-twins it seems to be doing just fine. | ||
| Anonymous |
Oh ye of so little faith. Not all of ye, mind ya, and thanks for those keeping it. It's going to be a great, great couple of years. With what will you wash down the humble pie, Reg? Get a BIG BIG glass. | ||
| Jscott |
Anon, please o' please serve us up some humble pie. We've been begging for years. | ||
| Jima4media |
Anonymous, I really hope Buell has something in store for the next couple of years, because I'd like to get back on board. The products that have been available for the last couple of years haven't made me want to reach for my wallet, compared to what the competition has been offering. I think Reg and everyone else around here will be singing the praises of any bike that creates lust in the hearts of motorcyclists world-wide. | ||
| Henrik |
Hey Anony; no need to get your hackles up. This has been a very civilized discussion so far. I don't think there has been much in the way of lost faith. More in the way of frustration with situations that neither we - nor quite possibly you - can control. As for humble pie - if it'll quell my desire for another Buell to lust for ... bring it on  Henrik | ||
| Jscott |
I'll have my humble pie with a side of fairing, with a Nova motor on top please. | ||
| Jon |
You have to believe that BMC knows what it is doing. But you can't convince some people and so the nay saying continues ad nauseum. It just doesn't make sense that Buell are getting geared up to kick their own asses. They are going to win. Reg is very Pro Buell, but is also a concerned statesman. Anybody that think otherwise doesn't know him. And I'm betting he knows HD better than most as well. Let's see what happens. | ||
| Jscott |
"With what will you wash down the humble pie, Reg?" With Kool-Aid of course. Duh.  | ||
| Davegess |
Ah give Reg some slack. He is just asking for more and not sure he is going to get it. All he has to do is hang on a little longer. Rome wasn't built in a day. |
