| Author | Message | ||
     Regkittrelle |
"Who cares how they do it in Japan" In 25 years that phrase will read: "Who cares how they do it in China." There is an historical imperative that is continuously at work... side-by-side with the denial of its existence. | ||
| Blake |
"Unfortunatly, Buell seems to be moving in the OPPOSITE direction [from sportbikes]." Not likely. More likely is that they are simply expanding into other markets. I'm guessing that among the 2008 Buell lineup (release in July 2007) will be some very interesting if not downright exciting--heck let's go all the way and predict them to be outright exhilerating--new models. Who's with me?  On the issue of product development time, I think that there may be other factors besides the raw development time that are worth including in a comparative benefits analysis. One other factor worth considering might be the level of product advancement and innovation that is achieved. If YamaKawaZuki's two year development cycle yields a 5% improvement/advancement in product performance while H-D/Buell's five year cycle yields a 20% advancement, which development cycle is being more successful? To clarify, by "product performance" we are talking about all important aspects of motorcycle performance (handling, weight, braking, reliability, fuel efficiency, artistic appeal, maintenance cost/interval, innovation, uniqueness, warranty, price...), not just peak HP or top speed. I'm just throwing out some make believe figures to make the point in the above illustration. However, the introduction of the Buell XB lineup was certainly far and away a much greater leap in advancement over its immediate predecessors compared to anything produced by the Japan Inc expedited development cycle versus its predecessors. Yes? Ditto for the V-Rod. Yes? I wonder what BMW's product development time is. More than two years I'm thinking. More like five years maybe? The R1200GS was a HUGE leap in advancement past the prior R1150GS. This is a VERY interesting discussion! Great to read you Reg.  (Message edited by blake on February 01, 2007) | ||
| Blake |
I'm not so sure about China coming on like Japan did after WW-II. The Chinese currently offer very inexpensive labor for sure. I don't see that they have ANY advantage in terms of productivity or innovation. I think that once their labor rates equalize as have Japan's, they will find it much tougher going on the world market. It is interesting to note that just the expansion of the American economy/GNP over the past four years exceeds the entire economy/GNP of China. I guess I just don't have much confidence in communists, even capitalistic ones, when it comes to long term national economic expansion. (Message edited by blake on February 01, 2007) | ||
| Jiffy |
Barely mentioned huh Dave? Motorcycle.com took it to heart. http://news.motorcycle.com/article.motml?sid=4604 | ||
| Court |
>>>>In 25 years that phrase will read: "Who cares how they do it in China." Truer words have never been spoken. One trip to Bejing (and a glimpse at that HUGE Harley-Davidson factory) and you'll understand that China will be THE superpower in somewhere between 10 and 25 years. | ||
| Danny_h__jesternut |
I jest hope Buell Motorcycle Company continues doing what they have always done.  .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. Developing damb fun bikes that peaple have a blast riding. Old tubers are still an enjoyable ride.( wish they would have continued a line of um). XB's I hear are pritty fun, don't know I never rode one, maby some day. I'm farly confident that Buell dirt bikes will do jest what a dirt bike should do, fun fun fun. Hyper bike? If Buell did it, it would be done right. So much fun your head would explode.  .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .... Thats what bikes are about, fun, Buell knows how to do fun. Pass the COOL AID please.  .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ....... I also don't think you need to reinvent the wheel every other week.  | ||
| Regkittrelle |
Blake... Your point re product developement time is valid from an academic standpoint. However, the missing element is base point. That the XB platform might show double-digit improvement over its predecessor relates more to how bad the X1 was rather than how good the XB is. Your product performance points I also found interesting. Only one, fuel efficiency, even begins to edge into my "excels" column. The others are highly arguable (e.g., reliability) or unmeasurable (e.g., artisitc appeal). "...he introduction of the Buell XB lineup was certainly far and away a much greater leap in advancement over its immediate predecessors compared to anything produced by the Japan Inc expedited development cycle versus its predecessors." I don't even begin to agree with this. While it might have some short term validity, it fails to measure up to, for example, the 1969 Honda 750 vs. its CB450 predecessor. That's just one of many examples. I do believe, though the at the V-Rod would bubble up near the top of the relative advancement scale. The irony here, of course,is that the V-Rod motor was originally intended for the Buell. "It is interesting to note that just the expansion of the American economy/GNP over the past four years exceeds the entire economy/GNP of China." The unfortunate thing about the GNP is that it includes goods and services. It's unfortunate because the service sector is growing faster than the goods sector. This because we've moved so much off-shore and/or are buying our goods from countries such as China. The GNP is not a good indicator of our domestic manufacturing health. This trend I'm sad to say will not reverse. Jesternut has the proper perspective here... " Developing damb fun bikes that peaple have a blast riding." That's the reality. Trying to remold the current Buell into a world-beater just does not fly in the face of facts. Buell may get there one day, but they won't do it saddled with the current motor. With it the Buell will remain an interesting footnote as read by only a relative few of us. Buell's foray into the dirt worries me for a number of reasons: -- it's more competitive than the street market -- HDI's margin requirements --the lack of qualified dealers (if you think it's bad with Buell just watch and see how difficult it'll be to get an off-roader in the dealership) -- no demostrated history of successful marketing (Buell) -- the embarassing FX failure, the less than stellar Blast flat track effort... and don't forget the VR1000... will haunt the project -- the TOTAL lack of an appropriate P&A infrastructure and a serious NIH attitude.. Additionally, the modest sales of Buell is insuffient to subsidize any nascent dirt effort. This means Mother Harley will foot the bills. How long before we have a real upraising from the institutional investors? Watch the next two quarter's (in particular) earnings report very carefully. | ||
| Ceejay |
Additionally, the modest sales of Buell is insuffient to subsidize any nascent dirt effort. This means Mother Harley will foot the bills Are they really that different from one another? To me it almost looks as if Buell is becoming the proverbial little brother, if he(BMC) fails it is his fault, if he(BMC) comes up with something good, harley will take full credit for it while giving the Buells a better garage to work in. Very similar to a graduate research experiment on heavy water. If it works, HD is a genius, if not it gets swept under the carpet or BMC gets put up as a face man. I love watching the guys I work with buying everything from rings to boots that are labeled HD, helps my measly small amount of stock...I do think they the lifestyle will continue to live on through folks such as this though, but believe that Buell is the only way for HD to push forward, they are just too rooted in tradition which si by no means bad, but that also means that they can't put out a decent product without bothering the traditional types. Hell a lot of people get jibbed for riding a v-rod, which is a damn cool bike. I know two examples of people who sold thier because they felt as if they didn't fit in and while I know that is what this board is all about, some people are very much into it. Which again creates another paradox, which I believe Triumph has filled. They despite some serious niggles have shown that they have the ability to build some serious bikes, while keeping thier roots showing. Ducati is onto the same idea, but Harley, they can't do it. Why? Too slow in their idea process-nah. Yea maybe they have become fat and slow, especially when compared in the dirt market. But it is something they used to do, and maybe now thier financial health and future thought process allow them to do it. Remember, the main building are next to one another, and maybe what is not good for buell is excellent for HD. | ||
| Court |
>>>>a serious NIH attitude.. That's at the top of my perceived "must solve to advance the game piece" list. It's a huge problem that will require several others to be resolved before it can even be addressed. Timing is everything. | ||
| Jlnance |
You all think Buell has an NIH attitude? You two would certainly know, so I assume it's true, but I have to say I'm supprised. I look at the bike and most of the components are sourced from someone else. I work in the the computer/electronics industry. You haven't seen NIH until you've been there. IBM used to be notorious for it. I wouldn't be supprised if they didn't make their own screwes. | ||
| Elvis |
There seem to be a lot of people making a lot of assumptions about what Buell is going to do in the future based on very few words. What Buell model is overdue for a re-design? Answer: The blast. What sort of re-design should the blast get? Personally I'd love to see a motard that aims at the Aprilia SVX:  If they introduced a Blast like that (or some new model designation) would the next step into dirt-bikes be the big leap that we all currently see (without having any idea what is actually going on)? Also, am I the only one who has interpreted statements related to Buell's entry into the dirt-bike market as confirmation that the long rumored new engines are finally on the way? I'm sorry, but I'm having trouble seeing the gray cloud hidden behind the huge silver lining. If Buell pulls the cover off a ZX-14 clone in July, then I will be the first in line to proclaim: "They've lost focus" . . . but I don't think that's likely to happen. I'd rather trust 25 years of history than a few "whisper down the lane" words. What is Buell's focus? Light weight, compact, sort of quirky, mechanically simple, great handling, responsive motorcycles that are an extension of the rider. Buell's torquey engines may not be everyone's cup of tea, but when you roll the throttle, the response is there. Do dirt bikes fit the idea of: "Light weight, compact, great handling, responsive motorcycles that are an extension of the rider"? I think so, but as a street-bike fan, I'm more interested in getting some of that technology in a street-bike. I'll tell you right now (and I'm betting I'm not alone) that if Buell introduced an XB tomorrow with the KTM 990 engine, I'd be trying to convince my wife that I really do need another bike. Has the possibility of something like that just taken a huge step forward? I think so. | ||
| Jaimec |
I'd just like to see Buell build a world class sportbike that can kick ass without all of the rationalizations and excuses I see being made about their current bikes. I LOVE my Buell but I'm sorry guys... I'm not so delusional to think that someone with my exact same skills couldn't kick my ass on my favorite backroads riding a Yamaha YZF-R6, and just plain EMBARRASSING me on the track. I want to see an American made bike competing in World Superbike, AMA Superbike and British Superbike WITHOUT those organizations having to bend and stretch their rules to let it compete. I bought my Buell because I don't CARE if I'm the fastest guy down any particular road. Ergonomically, it's far more comfortable than anything else I've tried (except the R1200S or K1200S, but those are too damned expensive), and I like the low maintenance features of its belt drive and hydraulic lifters. I also like the fact that I just don't see myself at every intersection and biker hangout on the road, either. | ||
| Xl1200r |
I bought my Buell because I don't CARE if I'm the fastest guy down any particular road. I'd just like to see Buell build a world class sportbike that can kick ass without all of the rationalizations and excuses I see being made about their current bikes. There's quite the contradiction in these two statements. It seems to me that a lot of folks who want this so-called "world class" sportbike do so for the bragging rights. They want it for the "I told you so" factor with their friends. If you truely didn't care if you were fastest one down a particular road, why would you care if your brand was the fastest around a racetrack? I bought my Buell for everything it IS. Like you, I don't care if I'm the fastest because I know I'm going to be having the most fun on something that's at least a little bit unique still. Could the XB use a little more horsepower? I can't say no, but I by no means think this a major factor against them. Buells are STREET BIKES. Everything Erik does is not just for performance, but for STREET PERFORMANCE. You can flame me all you want, but the XBRR was just a glorified attempt at trying to make a motorcycle do something it wasn't designed to do. In my mind, seeing Buell produce a world-class sportbike and get serious into the racing circuts would make me question what their desired purpose is. Sure, I'd be proud of the bike, but I'd be weary of it too. | ||
| Jaimec |
I said "I don't care." But I suspect Buell would sell a helluva lot more bikes if they were the no-excuses king of the sport bike hill... | ||
| Xl1200r |
Who cares if they sell more bikes? You've got yours and I've got mine - who else matters? When I had my Sportster, I wanted to be sure it was something that no one esle really had. I went the Cafe route which still isn't terribly popular, but I spent a lot of time and money doing things to that bike that no one else did (ask me about the totally off-the-wall sized aluminum rimmed spoked wheels that I managed to fit into the stock chassis). I took pride in having something that you didn't see all over the place. The same is true with the Buell. I like that I don't see my bike crawling all over mountain roads on a nice day in the summer, or gathered at the local Dunkin' Doughnuts to brag or do whatever those crotch rocket guys do. Even with my car - it's not particularly rare, but I have only seen one of my model AND color on the road, and that was 600 miles from my house. I wish all the susccess in the world to Buell, but if they make it *big*, it might lose that special-ness they have right now. | ||
| Regkittrelle |
This is good stuff guys. I can actually get excited about the internet when thoughful responses such as these show up. Thanx. "Are they really that different from one another?" Ceejay: I'm going way out on a limb here, but I see it to Harley's advantage to keep Buell as separate and as contained as possible. While this make little sense from a manufacturing point, it does play well as a scapegoat option. By isolating the Buell entity HDI can eliminate it more cleanly if the day comes when the stakeholders say, "Enough." Blast in the dirt... Redesign would hardly be enough; everything under the tank badge need to be replaced. For that matter, retire the name completely. It's a junvile attempt to appeal to a fun-lovin younger crowd. Do you know, at one time it was seriously thought that this motorcycle was going to strongly appeal to the skateboard/snowboard crowd? I was stunned when told that! The motor is far to heavy to be in a competitive chassis. Recall that the Blast motor is half an XB... the XB is NOT two Blast motors. This fact highlights the group that is designing today's Buells: the accountants. As a result most everything need do double duty. Put another way, most everything becomes a compromise. There are VERY few great motorcycle or cars in this world that exhibit any compromise or committee design efforts. The greatest vehicles are purpose-built and guided by the passionate fury of a single individual. There rests with me a singular conundrum: How can it be the exquisitely interesting Barton and the exceedingly mundane Blast be the product of the same man? Given full rein/reign I believe the products we would see from Erik WOULD be world-class. And there would not be a Blast or a pushrod among them. I imagine that most everyone here would very much like to see Buell ranked as a world-class motorcycle, jingoistic as that might be. I certainly would. But given what we see, and have seen, Buell is wandering in the dark. Marketing is a disaster, dealer support (overall) is pathetic, and P&A is joke. And here's the worst part: There has been virtually no improvement in those three areas in the past ten years. The good news? Today's XBs are the best Buells ever built. Blake broadly hints at great things to come this July. I'm sure we all hope he's correct. But let me throw this out to you: Let's say, for sake of arguement, that Buell comes forth with a state-of-the-art cammer with a true 130 RWH, 395 lb. weight,and handling to cry for. Then what? It will be shipped to a dealer net that largely doesn't care, supported by yet another clueless marketing team, and decorated by Harley's idea of sportbike dress. THAT is a recipe for failure. Now look at it this way... Keep the CityX as is, rework the Uly frame and add a decent dash, off the short WB models ('ceptin' the CityX), and upgrade the controls all-around. Now take this lean and mean line and stick it in dealerships that, 1) give a damn and, 2)understand the bike. Next, lose the current, and long-standing, ad agency and replace it with one that has a passion for motorcycles and understands the unique charactoristics of the Buell. Then, someone needs to go to P&A and kick ass and take names... for ten years I've heard excuses from any number of HDI execs re the pathetic P&A response to Buell. And every one reeks of CYA BS that's justified by the whiney "..the volume just isn't there." Grow some balls, someone. Do the above and then the "We don't care how they do it in Japan" mantra begins to make sense. Why? Because we'd have a uniquely American motorcycle, strongly supported by a committed company. Positioned as a unique motorcycle (with quality to match) price point then becomes irrelevant. It doesn't have to be the absolute best at anything. Here's another hoot to consider: When Harley gets around to releasing the Sportster "concept" bike it will steal sales from Buell because, 1) it will be THE 'merican motorcycle and, 2) the dealers understand. Think about the Chrysler 300C and the Dodge Magnum R/T. Wildly popular and as American as you can get... produced by a German-owned company. We need a thinker like that at Buell. | ||
| Jscott |
Bloody frickin brilliant. Cut's right through the kool-aid. "I imagine that most everyone here would very much like to see Buell ranked as a world-class motorcycle, jingoistic as that might be." Say I! | ||
| Jaimec |
Why do I care if Buell sells more bikes or not? Puh-LEASE! Buell is a publicly traded company. Whether you like it or not, when your company is publicly traded, your PRIMARY fiscal responsibility is to provide payback to your stock holders. The only way to do that is to make a profit. The preferable way of making a profit is to sell product, but if you can't do that, then you lay off workers, offshore labor, or dismantle the organization completely. You tell me which you'd rather see? | ||
| Oldog |
WHAT REG SAID ! | ||
| Henrik |
Dead nuts spot on Reg. Thank You! for so eloquently expressing how I feel about Buell these days. My S2 does the job fine and give me plenty of grins with it's whopping 50HP - on a good day. But I would *love* to have a new/updated/refreshed Buell model to lust for. The Uly was close but no cigar. Henri | ||
| Buelluk |
Errr, i dont think you will find Buell is a publicly traded company, HD is , a small distinction. | ||
| Jaimec |
True, and as a publicly traded company, if HD is not seeing suitable profit coming from Buell, then they either spin it off, or discontinue it entirely. Spinning it off may not be a bad thing if Buell can acquire a new source of engines (and wouldn't most of us LOVE to see that), but then they'd be flying without a parachute and have to make or break on their own. | ||
| Indy_bueller |
Reg; I agree with most of what you said. Granted, you are closer to Buell and have had more intimate knowledge of the brand than I have. But there is one thing I am sure of. Buell has passion. Anyone who has spoken to Erik knows this. Buell also has a team of people that has been brought together not only because of thier passion for motorcycles, but thier passion for BUELL motorcycles. I firmly beleive that if there is a group of engineers in the USA that can build a world-class Yamakawasukionda killer, they reside right now in and around East Troy Wisconsin. Your points about the dealer network, marketing, and so forth are well taken and I agree. But there is also one thing I do know. If you build a better motorcycle, people will buy it. No matter how poor the marketing is, people who are "in the know" will find out about it. Word of mouth will spread. "Win on Sunday, sell on Monday." Etc. They might not be happy about the service they receive after the fact in alot of cases, but they will buy it. We also know that at least one point in the past, Erik wanted nothing more than to build a world-dominating racing motorcycle. The RW750 is proof of that. He may not be interested in that anymore, I don't know. What I do know is, the possiblity exists for Buell to build a new facility sometime in the not to distant future. Could this facility include a engine assembly line for an all new, never before seen engine that none of us knows anything about? We shall see I guess. Buell could do it. A wildly successful sport bike could be just the thing that moves Buell from the back corners of HD dealerships, to center stage in all-new Buell Dealerships across the country. For that matter, the new dirt bike line could at minimum help with that goal anyway. Ultimately, time will tell. It wont happen overnight. | ||
| Rick_a |
Whatever Buell does I'm sure it'll be different and innovative. Just make a twin, damnit. | ||
| Crusty |
Here's another hoot to consider: When Harley gets around to releasing the Sportster "concept" bike it will steal sales from Buell because, 1) it will be THE 'merican motorcycle and, 2) the dealers understand. I have to disagree. How well did the XLCR sell back in the '70s? How about the XR1000? I remembering lusting over both models. Most Harley riders couldn't care less about performance bikes. The dealers understand less today than dealers back then, because Harleys have been no effort sales for the past 15 years. I'm also seeing a trend for more dealers to have Buell enthusiastic sales personnel. Not all dealers, and not all sales people, but the number is increasing. Dave S was the most notable, but there's Cameron (Clown) in Georgia, Michelle and Anthony at Liberty in NJ, Eboos in Worcester, MA, Josh Cox, and a whole lot more, and the number is increasing. I think that the days of being a "Red Headed Stepchild" are coming to a close. Maybe I've had a little too much Kool-aid, or maybe I'm wearing rose colored glasses, but I think that the future is looking pretty bright. | ||
| Davegess |
Reg, spot on. I am pretty sure a bunch of folks in East Troy agree with you. I have to say that Buell is closer than we think to being to solve many of these problems. I guess they would need to double the sales volume and grow profits at the same pace and they will be ready to sorta stand alone. With 20,000 plus profitable bikes they could support stand alone dealers in all the major metro areas. They would have enough owners to sell a decent amount of jackets and the like. Short of stumbling upon 100 million dollars lying around I think they need to maintain the course and follow the plan. I am pretty sure no more than one or two people who post here have any idea what the plan really is. I suspect that only a handful of people at Juneau and perhaps a few more in East Troy know what the plan is. I sure don't but knowing Erik I know there is a plan and it is not likely to be wha t we think it is. After all, could anyone of us have scripted this story so far? Exactly. And I am pretty sure Erik has had his eye on a goal that he is still pursuing for decades. Not that he would object to thoughtful criticism but he will get pretty riled up when people say it is incompetence, ignorance or lack of commitment. | ||
| Xl1200r |
but then they'd be flying without a parachute and have to make or break on their own. They've done it once before. | ||
| Ceejay |
Reg-well put. I do like the fact that Buell has gone into full scale manufacturing, or at least motorcycle design-as most everything on the bikes other than the motors seems to come from somewhere else. I do think that a full line of dirt bikes is maybe not where Buell needs to go, but HDI-if I remember right, Buell is included in that, needs to go. If they can accomplish this, if you peruse thier job board, they are looking for qualified folks, so they must have some money to expand product lines and thus bring in new engineers, HDI will be much better off in the long run. I'm not too keen on the old addage win on sunday sell on monday, as I tend to believe that while it may work for some folks most buy a bike they are accustomed to or familiar with and a lot of people began riding on dirt, either it be on 4 or 2 wheels. I would be happy to buy my boys a product assembled in the USA for them to play on, and while I beleive the badge may say Buell that isn't where they are coming from. Will the HD support network be able to handle it, I hope so. There's coutless threads on this board now about the inability of many shops to deal with a different type of bike from Harley Davidson, just think what happens when a dirt bike is brought in. I actually hope it is not easy for them to transition, because that means that the motors were a clean sheet design, and it may actually help to get a different attitude into the organization. I don't see the XB style chassis going anywhere, and I hope it doesn't. While I prefer the artistically designed tube frames the newer bikes are an excellent exercise in engineering and manufacturing. I hope that Buell is able to use the experience gained by designing products for the dirt environment to push the street environment, and not let the HDI infringe too much upon that. Which in the end I think I wrote the same damn thing... | ||
| Rick_a |
I see the new Sportster prototype being a hit overseas, but not here. I'd doubt it'll even be sold in the US. There are so many great models available in the European market and America's close-minded collective doesn't even know what they are missing. | ||
| Indy_bueller |
Not that he would object to thoughtful criticism but he will get pretty riled up when people say it is incompetence, ignorance or lack of commitment. Dave, right on. Anyone who would say something to that effect is either stupid or simply ignorant. I guess for me, I just feel disappointed right now because the way that I would like Buell to go and they way that they are going are apparently two different directions. That doesn't mean I like Buell any less, just that I may have to experience other motorcycles for a while before I come back. |
