| Author | Message | ||
     Regkittrelle |
When the sizzle's tastier than the steak it usually means there's a new ad agency or pr person on board. It's nice that Buell is thinking of conquering all the world. However, I'd prefer to see a winning battle or two on the home front. The XBs are decent, pleasant motorcycles that have carved out a small niche of fans. Quality problems are mostly behind them and the pubs are saying nice things. But Buell product planning has a serious case of ADD going for it. I'd be more impressed were they further along with correcting the weak spots on their current models. Harley's failure to allocate sufficient monies for Buell development is a common complaint but, IMO, that just masks the real problem: Product development lead time. Honda is the acknowledged leader in this with 18 months being their target for new product development; Yamaha et al generally come in at two years. When pressed, Harley will admit that it takes close to five years to bring a product to market. Simply put, the competition reissues itself every two-and-a-half times to HDI's once. Buell has not issued a new motorcycle since the XB's debut 3-4 years ago. Even the Ulysses is simply more parts bin engineering, the larger frame notwithstanding. In the greater scheme of things I've no problem with this as I, for the most part, like the XBs, but all this bushwa re "dirt" and "hyperanything" is silly given that whatever they disgorge was conceived 5 years prior. (Message edited by Regkittrelle on February 01, 2007) | ||
| Sparky |
Hypersport... 200+ mph capable... wasn't Team Elves RR1000 a 1987 proof-of-concept vehicle? | ||
| Jscott |
"I'd be more impressed were they further along with correcting the weak spots on their current models." i.e. put a motor-in-it? (Message edited by JScott on February 01, 2007) | ||
| Aydenxb9 |
The death of the 9R probably has more to do with lack of sales of 9Rs. When I was selling, most folks who were looking at 'Bolts wanted 12's. 9r's were a hard sell due to the perceived "lacking" due to smaller displacement. | ||
| Glitch |
Honda is the acknowledged leader... Who cares how they do it in Japan? | ||
| Regkittrelle |
Glitch... Every company had better care. If you can't bring your product to market in a competitive timeframe, then you're not competitive. Period, end of story. Look very closely, and study, today's motorcycle market. There are very interesting and seminal events taking place. To ignore or dismiss them is to die as a viable company. | ||
| Jlnance |
Buell has not issued a new motorcycle since the XB's debut 3-4 years ago. Even the Ulysses is simply more parts bin engineering, the larger frame notwithstanding. My perception is that Buell (both the man and the company) think the XB frame is a quantum leap in motorcycle technology. I wouldn't expect to see anything new coming out of Buell that didn't involve some new way to use that frame. | ||
| Wolfridgerider |
I think you could hang a V-8 under there  | ||
| Oldog |
Perhaps a firebreathing Buell motor from the "dirt bike" motor? I have to doubt that the Blast / xb mill used on a "DIRT" bike would excell ( flat track excluded ) smaller updated motor, a new xb frame varient, different suspenders. makes sense If there are difficulties it will be in the details, as with all of the difficulties on the older products (post corp) the devils in the details. BTW thanks Reg, interesting perspective .. | ||
| Glitch |
I'm not saying dismiss anything. I just happen to think you don't have to do what everyone else is doing to be successful. Could Buell learn a thing or two from Honda? Sure, I guess they could. But do they have to take their business model? I wouldn't think they had to. | ||
| Wolfridgerider |
If you could see how crazy the people in Japan go over a H-D rolling down the road in downtown Tokyo. Its kinda cool. FYI I think Honda made over a Million bikes last year. I would like to see H-D and Buell have that type of market share but I would hate what it would do to the resale value. | ||
| Jaimec |
Yeah, 'cause Buells hold their value so well...  | ||
| Regkittrelle |
...nance: What "both the man and the company" think is largely irrelevant; what the market "thinks" is the key to success. If Buell's happy with their sales, then I'm happy, but I believe the company aspires to greater market penetration than what they've experienced to date. They will never be a major player in the sportbike market while continuing to use the current motor. Interesting to me, it's not the fault of the motorcycle or the motor, but rather the marketing. Glitch: I never suggested, or would I, that Buell use Japan Inc., business model. Concept-to-consumer time is the issue. If you can't bring your product to market in a competitive timeframe, you don't have a market. Wolf... Your point re HD resale is currently being proven in the marketplace. H-Ds are more available than they have ever been in the past 20 years... and the resale value has fallen The resale value of a Buell? It's never been good. | ||
| Ceejay |
I think due to recent manufacturing processes and the ability to change things quickly with small changes in tooling has allowed for the quick "progression" in motorcycle design and thus model changes every few years. In the past this has proven to keep HD resale up becuase the bikes didn't change much. Thiers or anyone elses. Now as with cars, bikes are changing-often times big changes, every three years and that in turn has led to a downturn in resale value becuase everyone wants the latest and greatest. | ||
| Wolfridgerider |
I know the H-D resale is dropping off FAST and know Buells don't hold their value at all, but if they flood the market that would be huge bummer. When I bought my "used" Road King that had 300 miles on it, it cost more than a new one. I couldn't buy a new one because I didn't have a trade in. The Dealer was going to make a big profit on me buying a used bike at way over cost or give me squat for my trade and make big money when the sold my trade in. Those days are gonzo..... | ||
| Ceejay |
I like the fact that Buell is branching out, and think that the hypersport guys competing with the dirt guys, competing with the streetfighter guys, competing with the racing team can only be a good thing. If nothing else a few more models gets more people to look at the brand which can generate a few more sales, which in turn creates more jobs, more competition, more sales, better racing, etc. Just as long as quality doesn't suffer because they are putting too much out and not paying attention to what they are putting out. Taking money and manpower from one project to get another going doesn't usually work the best but often has to happen... | ||
| Jlnance |
...nance: What "both the man and the company" think is largely irrelevant; what the market "thinks" is the key to success. Simply my observation. Not a justificaion. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Buell has not issued a new motorcycle since the XB's debut 3-4 years ago. Make that 5 years ago; the XB9R was introduced as a 2002 model. It does say a lot for the basic concept that nobody's complaining about the chassis being obsolete after 5 years, and they've managed to make everything from a road racer to an adventure tourer on the same frame. I'd venture however, that a clean-sheet engine design would merit a clean-sheet frame design to go with it. That frame is really engineered around the "lump". Some of its features would be wasted on a smaller/lighter/inherently balanced engine. | ||
| Glitch |
Reg, gottcha. Also I realize that Honda has been at for at least twice as long as Buell. | ||
| Regkittrelle |
Wolf... You point out something I failed to communicate: I'm not talking about "flooding the market," far from it. Rather, my point is with responding to the market. Harley has grown fat and sloth-like. It has led the cruiser market for years, with the competition scrambling to catch up and committing any number of missteps in trying to do so. This is changing, some of Harley's platforms (touring FLs and XLs) are long overdue for replacement and another... the V-Rod... had better step up to the plate very soon. The VR motor/chassis is a jewel, yet Harley seems afraid of it; afraid to place it in the mainstream. There are some truely great models in the HD line-up, but few trendsetters and NONE in the Buell line. The Victory Vision is catching flak from some riders, but you've got to give the company credit for the cojones. If they put a proper motor in it (should be larger than the current 100 cubes)it will garner attention away from Harley, and if Victory can ever get its dealer network figured out the company will offer very credible competition to HDI. Harley can compete, but Buell has yet to exhibit this ability. Big change is needed, but it's got to happen sooner than five years hence.} | ||
| Regkittrelle |
Hugh... How time flies. The chassis is a good one, and it COULD house an appropriate motor (Consider what Aprilia has done with the V-Twin). Certainly not the V-Rod. The key to the motor rests with divorcing the Buell from the Sportster. As long as the motor is required to do double duty it will always be a compromise. Do I see this happening? Nope, not as long as unit manufacturing cost holds sway over passion and enthusiasm. | ||
| Regkittrelle |
Glitch... And if it takes Buell as long to master manufacturing the company might as well can its CAD, dump its dyno and trash its testing no later than this weekend. | ||
| Jon |
Wow Reg. Very good to read you here. I think you are changing my mind about focus. Don't tell Dyna.  | ||
| Glitch |
What I'm saying is IMHO Buell is pretty successful. Niche market maybe, but they're doing pretty well. Could they do better? Sure. Could they do better if they weren't married to H-D? probably not. Not without major money, and a Korean engine. We'll see how that venture goes. | ||
| Jscott |
uh - Jon, I think I deserve credit for bringing up "focus", Dyna just expounded on it.  Not bad for an arm-chair backpedaler. Reg's take is very articulate and well thought. (Message edited by JScott on February 01, 2007) | ||
| Jon |
Alright, alright!!! Take the credit! Take the credit and spend it in a wild fling of self congratulatory ham-hocking!!  Ok, they may be a little under focused...but not hopelessly so... | ||
| Jscott |
Now that I have finished ham-hocking...Thank you. "Ok, they may be a little under focused...but not hopelessly so..." I agree. | ||
| Regkittrelle |
"Could they do better if they weren't married to H-D? probably not. Not without major money, and a Korean engine." And therin, Glitch, lies the ... uh, glitch. Buell needs the Harley teat, but its offering comes with a heavy dose of Harley narcotic. | ||
| Adrenaline_junkie |
I guess I'm weird because I read the first post in this thread and I saw: "Buell is going to go DIRT TRACK RACING! They are also going to build a Hyper Mega Mother Something-or-other." I'd love to see the XB chassis in the Twins series. Since they are dropping the 9 from production maybe they will bring us an XBR750DT. That would be an awesome day in my book. They could steal the number plates off the TT. | ||
| Tq_freak |
"Who cares how they do it in Japan"  |
