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Prof_stack
| | Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 12:07 pm: | 
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WTF??..in 30 years making 75k/year will be poverty wages.
I think he didn't do correctly his math. The wage would be far better than 75k, assuming things like COLA's are adjusted appropriately. |
Thansesxb9rs
| | Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 02:25 pm: |
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Ya that was a quick figure that is incorrect but gives a very conservative idea of what these employees will make. If I would have taken the time to do it correctly the base salary would increase yearly which in turn would increase the yearly raise so in the end they will be making more then $75k. Plus that does not take into account overtime hours. I highly doubt that 75k will be poverty wages in 30 years, but I also think that there will not be any union jobs in America in 30 years. I truly do believe that the union jobs will be phased out of the American work force. This is just the direction I see our companies heading and it maybe the time for our younger Americans to rethink their career paths because the US will eventually not be a manufacturing country. The great thing is if they don't like the pay or where they see the market heading in their current career path they have so many opportunities in this world to work hard get a specialized degree and make themselves into whatever they want to be.
Success in this world is only limited by yourself, no company or person can hold you back from striving for perfection and the determination to be the best, this is what makes each and everyone of us an asset that is not expendable. |
Buellshyter
| | Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 08:41 pm: |
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because the US will eventually not be a manufacturing country.
That's a whole other topic unto itself. Personally, I don't think we will even recognize the U.S. in thirty years. |
Chellem
| | Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 09:00 pm: |
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I'm sure people who were around 30 years ago agree with that statement. No one 30 years ago could have predicted the crap going on today - instant communications, terrorism, smoking bans in public places - think about the world in 1975 and how much it changed.
Why would we expect it to stay the same? Economically or any other way? Why would people keep doing the same thing when history tells us it doesn't work like it did 30 years ago?
It doesn't have to be worse, but it will be different. And everyone, unions AND management included, needs to accept and adjust to that. |
Thansesxb9rs
| | Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 10:10 pm: |
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I agree with you Chellem and Buellshyter I think we will always be the US unless another country like China becomes more advanced and takes us over. But with the global economy I don't think any countries will be looking at overtaking through military means. We may just end up being their red headed stepchild.
But the US economy is one of the most stable in the world and the Chinese are still in their early stages of development which means it could crumble any minute. I think we will have many changes in our future but none that will go so far as that we do not recognize the US. The cool thing is that there maybe more opportunities for oversea's employment which will mean more exposure to different cultures in the world.
For the Chinese to develop much further they will have to quit copying other countries products and either be a manufacturing country for companies or develop their own quality brand names. In 30 years China may not even be an economic power if they cannot create their own image.
But Buellshyter you are correct this is a completely different topic then the one at hand but they do overlap pretty well for us to consider since HD is probably considering this in their 10 year plan to cut costs and increase profits or maintain profits in future years. |
Toona
| | Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 10:46 pm: |
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Could it be that HD and the Union are in cahoots (sp?). HD dealer inventory is probably at an all time high. No more waiting months at a time to get your HD from the factory-that drove the price of the bike up. HD has been offering incentives to move bikes off the floor.
NOTE: This is my point of view and I have no proof, just my observation.
GM and the Union did kind of the same kind of deal back in '98. That Union went on strike/GM locked them out (sound familiar?). Convienently, GM redesigned the trucks for '99 and needed to move out excess '98 body style inventory. GM shuts down, excess '98 inventory is sold off, GM and the Union come to terms and WAAAA-LAAAA, Out comes a new truck and everyone is happy.
I'm not saying that HD is coming out with new bikes, maybe they are just using this time to move excess inventory and drive up demand again????? |
Thansesxb9rs
| | Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 12:26 am: |
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Very possible but they do need to cut costs, full health benefits and the pension plans of the past are very very expensive. |
Old_man
| | Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 01:30 am: |
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I guess they should give up their benefits and work for minimum wage.
That would sure cut costs.
Then the executives should take a proportional cut and give up any of the benefits they have.
That would sure cut costs more.
Then they would lower the price on all of their products.
Then they would probably sell more, and could expand and hire more people.
This would make everyone happy.
But those damn unions, they should be outlawed.
Then we could count on employers treating those employees who merit it very well.
Out of their well known sense of fair play and justice. |
Old_man
| | Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 01:41 am: |
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Oh no, I was wrong!
I found out the minimum wage doesn't exist in some other countries.
It will still cost much more to make things in this country.
Damn minimum wage and 40 hour work week.
How's a company to make any money here!!
It's so very, very expensive. |
Court
| | Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 06:21 am: |
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Culture |
Buellshyter
| | Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 08:45 am: |
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Very possible but they do need to cut costs, full health benefits and the pension plans of the past are very very expensive
Why don't you set an example, Thansesxb9rs, and march right in to see your boss Monday morning and demand he revoke your health and pension benefits. It's for the good of the company ! |
Buellshyter
| | Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 09:11 am: |
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I think he didn't do correctly his math. The wage would be far better than 75k, assuming things like COLA's are adjusted appropriately.
COLA or cost of living adjustment is tied to inflation. Therefore, essentially, the 37K today is still worth only 37k in 30 years no matter if it's 75k or some other number. In other words, 75k in thirty years will only buy you 37k worth of goods in today's dollars. |
Court
| | Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 10:06 am: |
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Culture . . . ergo . . .
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Ducxl
| | Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 10:46 am: |
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It's all about the "race to the bottom".Of course everyone remembers that nutjob Ross Perot remarking of that huge "sucking sound". Corporate America despises American labor. |
Thansesxb9rs
| | Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 01:04 pm: |
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Buellshyter, my company has less then 1,000 employee's, fringe benefits averages out to be about 20% of total labor dollars spent and my company does not have a pension plan like most manufacturing companies, these pension plans are already almost a distant memory. Unlike the baby boomer's my generation will have to do it's own financial planning to be able to retire comfortably. Sorry but I guess we just have to take everything into our own hands instead of paying someone else to do it. I guess for some it may seem difficult or unreasonable.
Old Man you can always say cut the corporate executives pay and incentives but it will never happen. These are the people responsible for the company and they get these large incentives when they run the company properly (properly = profitable, doesn't mean all employee's are happy or agree with direction) When you see a company that does not pay these incentives you should probably look for a new job because your company will not be around long (unless it is a really small business). And most executives will not take the job without these incentives. Acutally most people in management will not take the position without these benefits. Who would want their positions without taking these incentives anyway, they have the hardest job in the company and work 24/7. How many of us are on the job working 24 hours a day? How many people are still working as soon as they get home? Maybe executives need to start a labor union for their positions?
Sad but most executives spend more time working then with their families. I guess that is why most European's say Americans live to work not work to live.
Oh ya I almost forgot, if my company came in and said we are no longer offering health care benefits, well then I would just move on to a new company that does offer them. But if most companies started to not offer them well then i would have to accept this, or I could just not work in protest but this would only hurt me in the long run. |
Thansesxb9rs
| | Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 01:10 pm: |
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Court  |
Court
| | Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 02:49 pm: |
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C-U-L-T-U-R-E
If you live in America, you likely know what you have been taught about manufacturing in other countries.
Wipe your slate.
Investigate.
Challenge.
Study.
Think.
Look. . it's been better than 30 years since I earned my degree in Economics and Labor Legislation, but the principles are the same.
The world is about to experience one of the greatest economic experiences in history. The very way we communicate and engage in commerce has changed. Take a look at your "Made is America" model and see if they facts and circumstances you formed your opinions on still hold water.
If you buying into the "poor Chinese children are being beaten and sold into industrial slavery" you obviously missed the largest construction trade show (World of Concrete) in Las Vegas recently.
quote:we keep on waiting
waiting on the world to change
-JOHN MAYER
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Old_man
| | Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 04:53 pm: |
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Thansesxb9rs,
For 33 years I was one of those people who worked 24/7.
I carried a pager everywhere I went.
It was a rare night that I wasn't awakened with some problem.
The people who worked for me had a contract, they had medical (To which they contributed a percentage)
They had a retirement plan that they had to match what was contributed for them.
The cost of these benefits were calculated as a part of their pay.
I know they earned every penny they were paid.
They had rights that limited my ability to do as I pleased.
These things didn't hurt the job but made it a success. |
Paint_shaker
| | Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 06:13 pm: |
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Whether or not you are for or against unions, they have brought good things to the labor force. Unfortunately, there has also been union abuse along the way. |
Court
| | Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 07:22 pm: |
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What if it had NOTHING to do with a union other than the union was a convenient vehicle? HD has a MAJOR challenge coming up in the next 24 months.
The strike may or may not be related, but expect a great deal of change.
Sounds like a neat time for a dirt bike . . .
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Buellshyter
| | Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 07:29 pm: |
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Court, please elaborate on what it was you were trying to say. |
Thansesxb9rs
| | Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 07:52 pm: |
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Old man it seems like you where very lucky that no one took advantage of you or the system in your 33 years, but I must ask how long have you been retired or are you still in management? Because there have been quite a few changes in the past 5 years with SOX and the very large increases in costs for every industry but especially the manufacturing sector. 10 years ago was a very different world such as 10 years from now will be a very different world.
Plus your employee's had cheaper health care at the time and they paid a deductible which lowers the cost for the company. Sounds like they had the same benefits most people have with their 401k which is much cheaper for a company to fund then a company pension plan.
Also I think HD is in the perfect position for a hostile take over, which usually happens when companies are profitable. I mean look at that headline Court just posted, kind of makes you wonder.
A few stories I remember the old timers (when I was union) talk about was hiding from management, taking naps, drinking on the job, throwing chairs at walls while discussing contracts and many many other items that the unions would fight for them to keep their jobs over, our union steward's where very busy one of which was my brother who sometimes didn't even want to help the people out to keep their job because of the stupid things they did. My managers had one hell of a time dealing with these people who would take advantage of the system every chance they got.
Oh ya one year a guy called in sick, that night he came to our christmas party drunk bragging about how he won $2k at the boats that day, or the guy that calls in sick and then takes his son go-kart racing these are the kind of things I saw and heard about while working for a union shop, how can anyone justify this kind of behavior? I for one cannot and it seems to me a lot of us younger people that have experienced working with or in a union have very similar experiences. So once again Old Man I say you must have been very lucky.
(Message edited by thansesxb9rs on February 11, 2007) |
Old_man
| | Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 08:22 pm: |
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I retired in 2005.
Abuses may happen, but it the the job of management to stop that.
I can't believe that the types of abuse you mention, if known by management, would be accepted. |
Hdbobwithabuell
| | Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 09:02 pm: |
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I don't want to bad mouth unions but I don't really think they always have the long term best-interest of their membership in mind.
A couple of examples...
Example 1: I moved to NC around 8 years ago and remember that there where many union textile plants in this area. Right after I moved here, I saw a news story where some textile workers got together to celebrate "Made in America". Everyone at this get-together got a "Made in America" t-shirt that was "Made in China"! Not many textile jobs around here now.
Example 2: I worked as a "casual" employee for a Union freight company (CF). While those of us with no seniority busted our butts lifting and hauling everything under the sun (and being quite productive), the long time guys generally sat their a$$es on a fork lift waiting for some ez task suited to them. They made more to do a lot less. Productive? Not really, but backed by their rights as a long time union guy. Damn, CF went out of business. Hmmmm
Lastly, I find it quite disturbing that most Americans wants to make $200k a year to flip burgers but complain if a burger costs more than $.99
You have to be willing to support your own wage. (My wife would argue that my debt ratio would indicate that I support my own and several others wages) |
Thansesxb9rs
| | Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 10:26 pm: |
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Well then maybe that is the problem, most of the managers thought they had their hands tied do to legal reasons, they managed the best they thought they could with what they where given or what the company allowed them to in regard to union labor, I guess it sounds like you where the only one that didn't experience this or see it since there are quite a few stories of abuse already in this thread. It was amazing what kind of abuse the old timers could get away with, but the younger employee's the union wouldn't really stand up for since they where only part timers but they surely did take full dues from them. |
Thansesxb9rs
| | Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 10:35 pm: |
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Oh ya they weren't accepted but the employee's didn't lose their jobs either, which means there is no respect for the management because really what can they do when the employee is untouchable or only receives a slap on the hand because of the protection the employee's pay for. Plus yes management didn't always know how the employee's abused their jobs not all of them were caught in the act, I just heard about it while they all laughed in the break room. Kind of funny all the union's are is paid protection now a days. The only thing a union can't protect is where the location of the operation will end up. |
Tpoppa
| | Posted on Monday, February 12, 2007 - 10:26 am: |
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Old_man, I hear what you are saying about management doing their jobs and I agree with you. Unfortunately, in many union shops (especially UAW) it is not that simple. Management's hands are tied by union practices and an 'Us vs. Them' attitude.
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Many Unions create an environment where abuses take place and then provide protection when a member gets caught abusing the system. In this thread alone, there are many examples of union abuses that just don't occur in non-union shops.
I will never understand why any Union would protect a member who sleeps on the job, goes home on the clock, etc. It gives unions a bad name and makes all union members (even the good ones) look bad. Union or not, a $hit employee should be fired.
Sleeping on the job, or purposely working slow, or requiring that 12 employees do the work of 5, or protecting $hit employees is is NOT going to help America re-capture it's manufacturing competitiveness. In the past unions have done some good, but they have outlived their usefulness. Today, Unions are bad for America and Americans.
(Message edited by tpoppa on February 12, 2007) |
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