| Author | Message | ||
     Rokoneer |
This was discussed in depth here last spring when it happened and I just thought I'd give an update. Syracuse, N.Y.) AP -- A 21-year-old man was convicted Wednesday of driving a motorcycle more than 100 mph and leading a state trooper on a chase that ended with the trooper crashing into a tree and dying. An Onondaga County Court jury deliberated for more than nine hours before finding James Carncross guilty of aggravated criminally negligent homicide and reckless driving in the death of Trooper Craig Todeschini. Carncross was acquitted of aggravated second-degree manslaughter. Todeschini was killed April 23rd when he crashed his patrol sport utility vehicle into a tree in the hamlet of Pompey Hill as he was rounding a curve in pursuit of a sport-style motorcycle. | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
Makes sense. The cop had no choice but to chase the cyclist as fast as possible and at any cost. If the cop killed a busload of nuns, the cyclist would have been at fault then too. /sarcasm off/ I still don't understand why the cop didn't just radio it in and not persue. An SUV can't catch a CAR let alone a race-replica bike. Radio waves are faster than Ford Explorers. | ||
| Mortarmanmike120 |
I agree. Maybe they should charge who ever planted that tree in the middle of the road? I'm sorry that was very callous. I feel bad for the cop, but have a hard time blaming the biker for the cops incompetence. He was acquitted of manslaughter but convicted of homicide?? Would the cop have been responsible for the motocyclist if he decided NOT to give chase? Was the cop 100% required to chase the bike? That would change things slightly. | ||
| Jimidan |
It just goes to show you that you never, ever want to put your life into the hands of a jury. With regards to the cop, everyone makes bad judgement calls throughout their life. It was his call and he knew exactly what he was doing. Whatever happened to personal responsibility in this country? jimidan | ||
| Aldaytona |
Idiots are taking over the country. Soon I fear the national anthem will be changed to the Vonage theme music.  | ||
| Nutsosane |
A good many Police agencies across the country employ "No Chase Policies." Chases are only allowed if a major crime is "in progress." Routine stuff like stolen cars or traffic violations fall into the "no chase" loop. It's just too dangerous for the officers and the civilian bystanders. The fool running...well they always seem to find the brick wall sooner or later. NUTS | ||
| Loki |
maybe I am one of the few.... Those being chased should bear some of the burden of the results of their decisions. Running from the police has become to much of a sport to some people. I also agree that the officer that lost his life made a bad decision. He and his family are carrying his burden. | ||
| Johntman |
well I believe it is due to being a sue happy country. I know in ga anyway that in order to chase some one you have to use "due regard for the safety of others". you have to take into consideration the violation, the time of day, the road of travel, condition of vehicles (yours and the violators), and then way the outcome of the apprehenssion of the violator vs. the general safety of the public. The decision comes back on the officer. So, you are danged if you do and danged if you don't. If I chase a guy and cause him to loose control and wreck, and I was chasing for say a seatbelt violation... but you don't just run for a seatbelt!, and he dies because he hit a tree and was not wearing his seatbelt. his family is going to sue me and my department and probably win. Ok so now I'm chasing this guy on a busy street and he hits another car and kills somebody. That family will sue and probably win. Ok so now I've decided that chasing is bad so I do not chase the guy for the seatbelt, but I had already called the stop out on the recorded open records act over the police radio and stated he did not stop. Now he goes into town and robs the convience store and kills the clerk. The clerks family will probably sue and win. So when you get behind that bike or car and they don't stop for a minor violation, what do you do? No win situation all the way around! | ||
| Pwnzor |
Nope. I'm not even going to get started on this. | ||
| Blake |
You never know with a jury. My wife sat on a murder case this year that ended in a hung jury. This one went the opposite way compared to the case sited above. http://www.hendersondailynews.com/articles/2005/03 /15/news/01shootingtue.txt http://www.hendersondailynews.com/articles/2005/03 /16/news/02shootingtue.txt http://www.hendersondailynews.com/articles/2005/05 /05/news/01indictwed.txt http://www.hendersondailynews.com/articles/2006/08 /11/news/03lepelleythu.txt http://www.hendersondailynews.com/articles/2006/08 /21/news/01lepelleysun.txt http://www.hendersondailynews.com/articles/2006/08 /22/news/01lepelleytue.txt She was furious with the jurors who refused to convict the defendant. Hopefully the DA will get him next time round. A trigger-happy murderer is walking around free due to the incompetence of a few jurors who based their "not guilty" view on the idea that they "couldn't know what the defendant was thinking at the time." The judge and prosecutor obviously didn't spend enough time explaining to those folks the concept of "reasonable" as related to the use of deadly force for self-defense. I agree with whoever stated that rule #1 is to do your best to never ever put yourself in a position to be at the mercy of a jury. This means don't break the law and don't hang around with folks who do or in places where law-breaking occurs. (Message edited by Blake on December 10, 2006) | ||
| Oldog |
Hopefully the DA will get him next time round. Don't know the circumstances but "next time around" would that be double jepordy? IMO the best way to deal with the court system is to Take rule #1 and go one more step, If you get in to a situation that you must hire a lawyer or appear in court you have lost, sadly our courts have become a moras of rules to protect the criminals, or a twisted chess game where to spin is to win, Right / Wrong / Truth have little to do with most outcomes, been there done that never again. Sad that a 20 something year old is now looking at a life time of trouble because of a stupid impulse, and worse that a man lost his life leaving a family because of a miscalculation / bad judgment. I hope that the state provides some relief / support for the LEO's wife and childeren. | ||
| Rokoneer |
To further add some fuel to the fire in the Syracuse case it should be noted that the trooper was responding to a domestic call and the motorcyclist passed him going the opposite direction. The trooper decided to not respond to the domestic, stop his truck, turn it around, and then give chase. I am familiar with the road this happened on. It is a very rural two lane road and I doubt there is anywhere when driving it that you can see more than 300 yards ahead of you due to the rise and fall, as well as the many curves, on this road. It would be fair to call it an excellent motorcycle road to ride. I would think that by the time the trooper got his vehicle turned around the motorcycle was so far away, and thus out of site, that choosing to pursue it was not the better option. It is also my opinion that this one incident made motorcycling in this part of NY a lot less fun for quite awhile, as all of a sudden there seemed to be an increased amount of law enforcement agencies directing their attention to all riders. | ||
| Khollister |
Given the scenario you describe, how did the cop ever get within visual range of the bike so the rider could even see the lights and know he was being pursued? The absurd extension of this is a guy is sitting home watching TV and a cop on the way to his house to serve a warrant is killed in a traffic accident - is the guy guilty of manslaughter? | ||
| Mortarmanmike120 |
If that is the case would it be reasonable to assume the motorcyclist may not even have known he was being 'chased.' Not that it would completely exonerate him of responsibility, but damn, he may not have even known there was a pursuit happening. How far down the road can a speeding motorcycle get in the time it takes to U an SUV? | ||
| Rich |
We recently had a similar case here in Florida. The rider got 30 years. | ||
| Jimidan |
Loki sez: Those being chased should bear some of the burden of the results of their decisions. Running from the police has become to much of a sport to some people. Those being chased DO bear the burden of the results of their decisions to run...they are arrested (I don't know how he got those bruises on his face, Captain), will lose their license plus big fine, and probably spend some jail time. Running from the police is a very serious offense around here, so it requires me to instantly assess the circumstances on a case by case basis to determine if they are favorable for escape before I do it. Having the only purple motorcycle in the state is an important factor in this decision making process. Having an automatic garage door opener in your jacket pocket for just such an occasion: Priceless! jimidan (Message edited by jimidan on December 11, 2006) | ||
| Jimidan |
Morterman sez: If that is the case would it be reasonable to assume the motorcyclist may not even have known he was being 'chased.' Not that it would completely exonerate him of responsibility, but damn, he may not have even known there was a pursuit happening. How far down the road can a speeding motorcycle get in the time it takes to U an SUV? Exactly! That is one of the key factors one must consider before making the decision to bolt. One must instantly calculate the limits and the differentiation and integration of functions of a plethora of variables, while piloting a speeding projectile down a curvy boulevard under the duress of an intense emotional state. It ain't as easy as it looks on TV. jimidan | ||
| Chainsaw |
Occasionally, I am baffled by the application and enforcement of the law. A fleeing biker can be found guilty of 'aggravated criminally negligent homicide and reckless driving' involving a driver behind him and possibly well out of his line of sight, yet a cager in South Dakota can run a stop sign, kill a biker, and get 30 days.  | ||
| Cowboy |
I have been keeping a close watch on the dicisions a lot of judges have made in the last yr.I have came to the conclusion they are the most corrupt Bastards in the justice system | ||
| Teddagreek |
Fight or Flight... Its Human Nature.. I agree on the no chase policy for most crimes its just not worth it. | ||
| Mortarmanmike120 |
Does this mean Bo and Luke Duke were responsible for all the police cars Rosco P Coltrane wrecked. I don't remember Boss Hog ever charging the Dukes fees for cruiser repair.   Maybe I need to get my legal information from a different source?  And maybe Rosco needs a new ride? | ||
| Mortarmanmike120 |
Yeah, that was probably uncalled for. I'm sorry that the officer died and I don't mean to accuse him of being incompetent. That was probably very tasteless. Sorry to all the LE out there. I don't however agree that the motorcyclist was responsible for his death. | ||
| Loki |
NY penal law is pretty clear on this one. Section 125.11 Aggravated criminally negligent homicide A person is guilty of aggravated criminally negligent homicide when, with criminal negligence, he or she causes the death of a police officer or peace officer where such officer was in the course of performing his or her official duties and the defendant knew or reasonably should have known that such victim was a police officer or peace officer. Aggravated criminally negligent homicide is a class C felony. vs. Section 125.15 Manslaughter in the second degree A person is guilty of manslaughter in the second degree when: 1. He recklessly causes the death of another person; or 2. He commits upon a female an abortional act which causes her death, unless such abortional act is justifiable pursuant to subdivision three of section 125.05; or 3. He intentionally causes or aids another person to commit suicide. Manslaughter in the second degree is a class C felony. | ||
| Loki |
It may have been a stretch to convict on the first one. Because he would not have known about the ensuing accident and fatality until after the fact. Yet he could have surmized, after the fact, that it was his involvement. Due to the time, the place and the description that was broadcast. Not on the police radios, but on the news. (Message edited by loki on December 11, 2006) | ||
| Jackbequick |
"..a cager in South Dakota can run a stop sign, kill a biker, and get 30 days." That was that fat, obnoxious, senator or congressman right? Nothing like being politically connected to put yourself above accountability. That fat bastard was also given his license to practice law back (it was taken away because of a felony conviction in conjunction with the murder he committed). And he was also excluded from being liable in court to pay any damages to the family of the man he killed because he murdered the man while out and about in the performance of his elected duties (or words to that effect). If I knew that man on sight, saw him on the street, was driving a cage, and thought I could get away with it, I would run him down. As for the guy in this case, it you run you have to be willing to take the chance you'll get caught. And if you get caught, you have to be willing to do the time. Do the right thing, it works every time. Jack | ||
| Jimidan |
I don't think either of those sections of NY penal law apply to this case. The motorcyclist did not "cause" the death of the officer, as he did not force the officer to chase him at high speed in a vehicle that is dangerous at moderate speeds. That was a serious lapse of judgement on the officer's part. It is a stretch to prove that he "knew" that he was even being chased by a police officer. But a jury can take a look at the poor widow and then at the "punk motorcyclist kid" and get all emotional and hang him out to dry. If the kid had taken a toke off of a joint a month before at a party, and then show-up positive on a drug test, and he would have been charged with DUI also...at which time they really would have thrown the book at him. It is a crazy world that a jury lives in...don't go there. jimidan | ||
| Loki |
No matter how competent one is. It is RECKLESS and a GRIEVOUS error to be doing 100+ mph on a stretch of public road that had a posting of 55mph at most. A road with limited sight lines and unkown traffic conditions. To pass by a trooper at over what is considered "reckless" (+30) speed. To even delude oneself into thinking said trooper would not attempt to stop you initially. Shows a fundamental lack of thought. So, yes I do see the actions of the "reckless" speeder as an indirect cause of the fatality. The 11 points for speeding and another 5 for the reckless. The fines that go with them. The possible short term revocation(6 mos)of his driving privileges. The increase in insurance premiums. The possible 15 day stint in jail. Would be enough of a punishment in your eyes? Wait a minute though. None of these penalties would have occurred. Unless the operator had been willing to slow down/stop and accept responsibility for his actions. | ||
| Scooterroid |
High speed pursuit for traffic infractions? Come on, get real. Law Enforcement Agencies need responsible and reasonable procedures regarding high speed pursuits or they, the law enforcement agencies, put us all at risk. my 2 cents Steve-O | ||
| Aldaytona |
Can I have an Amen brothers? | ||
| Percyco |
Here in Steuben Co. NY state, a local women shook her baby until it was brain dead (shaken baby syndrome). She is now facing charges of ONLY aggravated assault. But hey......as long as they keep the baby plugged in, it's not murder ! Go figure......  | ||
| Blake |
Oldog, No double jeopardy, no verdict rendered. A hung jury is a mistrial. The DA can choose to retry as he wishes. Pretty sure this one will. To top it off, it was a local boy who was murdered; the trigger-happy coward who murdered him is an out of towner. |
