| Author |
Message |
    
Old_man
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 06:55 pm: | 
|
Whether you work in a union shop or not, you have benefited from unions.
Whether you know it or not.
I was a supervisor for 33 of my 38 years in my job. The union contract made my job tougher, but I understood why it was needed. |
Frankfast
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 07:41 pm: |
|
NBC News reported tonight that non-union construction workers are six times more likely to suffer a fatality than union workers. Surprise, surprise. |
Dtx
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 07:49 pm: |
|
Bartimus,
Couldn't have said it better myself. 
Workers pay should be based off of Merit, not seniority. At my company, if somebody isn't as good as a fellow co-worker...they don't get paid as much. |
Dtx
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 07:54 pm: |
|
Frank,
Maybe that statistic sounds so lop sided because over 85% of ALL construction workers in America are Non-Union...(surprise, surprise!) |
Rocketsprink
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 08:04 pm: |
|
And maybe it's because most of them are unskilled, untrained and not given the proper Personal Protection Equipment they need and are required by law to use because the "Company can't afford it". Surprise, Surprise.
Also, again, I see many more lazy @ss people that are non union than union.
Contrary to popular belief companies can and do pay better workers OVER scale.
The dead beats usually sit on the bench because their reputations precede them. |
Rocketsprink
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 08:12 pm: |
|
And Bartimus, I do bust my @ss every day at work. I keep my own damn job, or I'd be laid off. Again, busting the balls of the Union worker.
Better go buy a rice burner, cause that motor that powers your bike was built by lazy, lousy, sleeping on the job Union workers. |
Dtx
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 08:33 pm: |
|
Rocket,
Chill...nobody is attacking you. 
In my industry, your broad statements about being unskilled and untrained is simply not true and we provide all our workers with PPE.
Right now the Union workers on our jobsite are the laughing stocks because we have a strict schedule to meet and they are always "on break".
Again, this probably varies among the industries and locations, but its been my experience. |
Teeps
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 08:35 pm: |
|
R-sprink,
You're going to pop a vane if you let these guys push your buttons.
sprink you're right, I've never been in, involved with or felt the need to be in a Union. However, I do believe that Unions do have their place, even today; but that's not the point.
Rum_runner,
The point is: don't give your employees a reason to think they need a Union. Problem solved, let them talk all they want, talk is cheap. |
Johnnymceldoo
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 08:42 pm: |
|
The point is: don't give your employees a reason to think they need a Union. Problem solved, let them talk all they want, talk is cheap.
In the entitlement society people believe they are entitled to things because someone else has those things. They dont believe they need to work as hard to get those things necessarily just that they are entitled to the same.
Maybe thats fine until the people who own the company want to make more money and send the work oversees where people will work harder for less. |
Lastcyclone
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 09:00 pm: |
|
I've been on both sides. After 10 years of NABET/CWA I know I never want to be without collective bargaining again. I don't want to imagine my life and family's lives without a Union to assure that I'm treated fairly by the giant corporation I work for, the same company that pays 7 year olds 8 cents an hour to make T-Shirts in Bangledesh. If this mega corporation did not have to pay me a decent wage and benefit package guaranteed me by our contract, I know, and everyone else knows they certainly wouldn't.
I'm now a certified Steward. My job is to help my coworkers when they need help, thats all.
I envy all the people that work for companies that genuinely care about the people that make their products and profits for them, but for most of us that is not the case. I like my job, but business is business and people are expensive to employ and pay. I want to keep doing this, so anyway I can find to help continue this and make the work environment better, I'll do it and being part of a Union is the only way that can happen.
If I've learned on thing over the years is that a Union is only as strong as it's members.
CWA is second in size only to the Teamsters, I think by law Unions are not allowed to "make a profit". My dues are very minimal considering the benefits I get in return. I get to vote on issues that affect me, I have a voice. I can take issue with something that I feel is wrong or if someone is treated poorly.
Maybe it is not right for everyone, but don't make judgements until you have the facts presented and know the real benefits.
Top 4 Reasons Employees Look to Unions
The top four factors that workers cite as important in deciding whether to have union representation are workplace safety, getting better benefits, obtaining higher wages, and increasing job security, according to a poll by the Employment Law Alliance, a network of employment and labor lawyers.
Sixty-three percent of all respondents said workplace safety is an important factor in deciding whether to join a union. Seventy percent of current union members cited workplace safety as an important factor, compared with 65 percent of former union members and 61 percent of people who have never joined a union.
Sixty percent of all respondents cited getting better benefits as an important factor in deciding whether to have union representation, compared with 57 percent who said obtaining higher wages and 54 percent who said increasing job security.
The poll found that workers reported that factors related to poor management were less important. For example, 34 percent of workers cited poor communication and 33 percent cited inconsistent discipline as important factors in deciding whether to join a union.
"These results indicate to me that most companies have done an effective job dealing with employee relations issues such as workplace respect, effective communication, and consistent discipline," says attorney Stephen J. Hirschfeld, the alliance's chief executive. "Those factors used to be the primary drivers which caused employees to look to unions for help. Now, for the first time, employees are telling us that workplace safety, wages, benefits and job security are areas where they think unions will do a more effective job in helping their plight."
More than 40 percent of respondents said that they believed that unions have had a substantial impact on improving the working conditions of average American workers.
Thirty percent of respondents said unions really care about improving working conditions. On the other hand, 19 percent of respondents said unions are corrupt and only care about what is in the best interest of their own officials.
Seventeen percent of respondents said they were current members of a union, 22 percent said they were former union members, and 61 percent said they were never members of a union.
From the U.S. Department of Labor's Bureau of Labor Statistics.
Fight the good fight.
Let the debate continue. |
Firemanjim
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 11:25 pm: |
|
Give it a rest guys, face it,there are good and bad employers as well as good and bad employees. As there are good and bad unions--they are run by people after all. Like politicians, some are there to help their fellows,some to help themselves.
My union experiences have all been good, some of you may have differing experiences---that is life.
So stop bashing each other and making generalizations.
Damn,you can sure tell when winter hits around this place.If you can't ride it, go wrench/fondle/fiddle with it. |
Lowflyer
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 11:48 pm: |
|
Unions provide safe work places because workers on break, are less likely to get hurt.
 |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 12:18 am: |
|
If you can't ride it, go wrench/fondle/fiddle with it
Boy O Boy, FMJ - them words to live by sure do cover a LOT of territory! |
Rocketsprink
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 06:14 am: |
|
No need to chill. I am not in the least bit surprised by what is being posted here. Same shit, different day.
Lowflyer, thats a good one. Shocked it took that long for some to come up with that.
Anyway, I'm proud to be a Union 281 Sprinkler Fitter. Proud that what I do saves lives and property. I have seen it first hand. I don't need it validated by anyone. And I'm paid very well for what I do. Happy Thanksgiving guys. Count your blessings. Later. |
Nutsnbolt
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 06:45 am: |
|
You know, I used to be union when I worked in Oregon for UG and Sysco. Used to find reasons to back it or bash it. Then one day I joined the Marines, realized that if I had a greivance or thought there was something dangerous about my "job" that the only person I could bitch to was the idiot in the mirror. That sort of put it in perspective for me. Here's a job where as a 22 yr old kid, I was to wake up, get dressed in cammies, get my rifle, get shot at, shoot at others, and got paid jack.
I sometimes think that we bitch just hear ourselves bitch.
I also like when they say that it's a volunteer army/marine corps. Most of us volunteer to escape rural entrapment or to try to better our crappy lives hoping that some direction might help. It does, don't get me wrong but, while we are on the topic of the benefit of unions or non benefit, just remember that there is some poor 18 yr old scared kid in Iraq that would rather be "volunteering" in hell than Iraq. Getting shot at, and can tell you the difference in mortors or IED blasts just by the sound they make miles away getting paid about 1000 a month to do so. I think politicians and soldiers ought swap salaries. I guarantee you that if someone asked you how much it would take money wise for them to fire one bullet near you with a blind fold on, the dollar signs would get rather large.
That's just my opinion, I could be wrong. |
Nevrenuf
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 07:08 am: |
|
as far as being trained better as a union member, it's only true if you went through an apprenticeship. if it weren't for those people who have been union carpenters most of their life i wouldn't have learned as much as i did going through the apprenticeship. most of the non union sector out there only teaches you how to do one thing. when you do nothing but one thing you can get fast and good at it. but as soon as you put them on something else alot of them have know clue as to what they are doing.
as far as the lazy ones go, iv'e seen them all and i've been the first one to see that they got canned or told the company supervisor if they didn't like what the saw that they have the option to let them go and call the hall for someone else, and when they didn't do nothing they were just as much at fault as the guy not doing nothing. the main reason i'm not working as a carpenter anymore is that i did a lot of stupid things over the years that left my body in less than better shape than it should be in. the whole deffinition of union is to work together and not as individuals. i am a carpenters carpenter. worked from the ground up, and can do anything related to carpentry. my work speeks for itself. if you really want to see lazy people, go work for the county or city, i've been there to. that was the biggest joke down at TIA here in tampa. and most of them are not union employee's. |
Frankfast
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 12:28 pm: |
|
Dtx - I assume that NBC'c report took into account the percentages of union and non-union construction workers. You should understand that a valid report would have to do that. Where is your backup that over 85% of all construction workers are non union? |
Lowflyer
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 12:42 pm: |
|
Hey Rocket, I just found this crappy thread. I was just doing my part to pile on some of my own on.
Unions suck. Start your own biz and you'll agree.
Unions are strong because they are chock full of dependents. The more dependent the members, the stronger the union.
Frankly, I don't understand what there is about being in a union that makes one so proud of himself. It's just proof that the person hasn't the ability to support himself in a free market. If you are good at what you do, people will pay you handsomely and treat you well. Your highly sought-after skills would command a safe work environment and a "living wage." You then wouldn't have to band together with other marginally skilled people to force a company to bend to your will.
Unions drive up the cost of labor and force jobs overseas. Then they bitch about the evil companies who use cheaper, non-union foreign labor. This is a deliberate tactic to create the divisiveness that unions thrive on. |
Dtx
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 01:13 pm: |
|
Frankfast,
My source is a college textbook from a Labor Relations class I took my senior year. |
Frankfast
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 01:17 pm: |
|
"Unions drive up the cost of labor and force jobs overseas". My only hope is that they take management with them. |
Lowflyer
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 02:02 pm: |
|
"Unions drive up the cost of labor and force jobs overseas". My only hope is that they take management with them.
The fact is, if it was nearly as economically viable as outsourcing skilled/unskilled labor, it would be happening and it wouldn't bother me in the least. This is a free market. You shop for the least expensive item just like everyone else. Labor is no different and it matters not what kind of labor it is. |
Frankfast
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 02:22 pm: |
|
You're right. That's exactly what's happening. Shop for the least expensive item and produce the cheapest product. That's what the consumer wants. God help us. |
Lowflyer
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 02:56 pm: |
|
That is ALWAYS what has happened. When you look for a job, don't you seek the highest pay and the best benefits for the least amount of time and effort? Do you not shop for the best quality at the best possible price?
Of course you do. That is because you are looking to maximize your personal profits. You are attempting to drive down your costs while you increase your income.
Profits are the difference between what it costs you to just exist and what you take in in the form of pay and benefits. You are not going to cease living out of fairness to the American worker.
You will do what everyone else does and buy the Chinese/Mexican equivalent because there is no sense in throwing good money away. Businesses understand this and do the same thing.
Unions suck because they take advantage of people who can't think in these terms. They provide a convenient alternative to fending for yourself. The more people the Union can convince that they are not marketable or even valuable as individuals, the stronger the Union gets. Nice friggin' life. |
Rocketsprink
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 04:00 pm: |
|
Ya know lowflyer, now you are getting personal. Can't support myself in a free market? Marginally skilled people? Bend the company to our will? You are proving just how ignorant you truly are. I went though a 5 year Apprenticeship. State Licensing tests, continuing education to maintain my licenses. Yes, I'm Proud to carry on the tradition and represent the group that made workers rights a top priority.
Take advantage of people. You sound like some one that may own their own business and knows first hand all about taking advantage of people.
You should come on up to Wisconsin for Homecoming and tell all the Union Harley workers how stupid, lazy, dependent and worthless they really are.
. Nice friggin' life. At over 100K per year....you're God Damn right it is! |
Bartimus
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 04:00 pm: |
|
Well said, Lowflyer, well said! |
Rocketsprink
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 04:07 pm: |
|
Yes Lowflyer, well said. Let's export all our jobs, then we can all work at McDonalds.
Like Henry Ford said, pay your employees so they can afford to buy what they make.
Won't be much longer till that isn't the case. The VAST majority of companies pay as little as possible. But if you're ok with that, then you have some serious mental issues. All I know is I'll have a nice pension waiting for me. At least I won't have to depend on Social Security like most, because they have no retirement benefits. |
Ducxl
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 04:20 pm: |
|
"You will do what everyone else does and buy the Chinese/Mexican equivalent because there is no sense in throwing good money away. Businesses understand this and do the same thing."
I call that unpatriotic,don't you care AT ALL for your fellow American?? WTF!!!
I'm not everyone else,and i try VERY hard to consume American manufactured goods&services.
Buells...BTW ARE Chinese manufactured and American ASSEMBLED.I wish greedy 'ole Erik would've checked out my employers machine shop instead of using China |
Ducxl
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 04:22 pm: |
|
Oh yeah,i thank the Teamsters for my straightened teeth.
Here's to the American labor movement
 |
Frankfast
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 05:00 pm: |
|
"Don't you seek the highest pay and the best benefits for the least amount of time and effort?"
No, but it sounds like you do. |
Nutsnbolt
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 05:08 pm: |
|
Lowflyer, you are a jackball.
What is your ideal American Citizen? A Highly skilled worker who is 6 foot, blonde haired, blue eyed, work to the bone, do what is asked even if what's asked is unsafe even though you may lose your job if you bitch.
You know, there was a guy in Germany who thought that way. A lot of people agreed with him, too. However, it didn't work out that well for him.
Americans are a diverse group. Workers as well as employers and owners. Some are top notch while others are possibly in the wrong profession but just doing what they can to survive and make it from day to day, and damn the torpedoes what anyone thinks of them.
Before unions if you got injured on the job, you got sympathy and got replaced. Guess that's just natures way of thining out the herd, Lowflyer?
Listening to you reminds me just how much I love the 1st Ammendment and just how much I love this country.
Diversity, adversity, prosperity, profiteering. How much profit is enough? That's the real problem in business anymore. Greed. I'm not against the free market and laws of business. I believe in profit and a lot of it. However, I often feel that employers SHOULD have an obligation to ensure a better quality of life for their employees. The employees have made a commitment to their employers and often feel a sense of pride for that company they work for. It should only be right that the employer look at that relationship in the same way. Unions ensure that takes place whether the owners or employers believe in the same way as the employees or not.
It's every red blooded americans right to bitch about work. If we didn't, what would we have to drink beer about at the local pub?
I was once a Teamster and a proud Teamster at that. Now I belong to a different union, the same union that gives you the right bitch. The Marines. You should be proud of yourself Lowflyer. You went on your Rant... and allowed me to go on mine. |
Lowflyer
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 05:13 pm: |
|
"Lowflyer, you are a jackball."
Personal attacks are not in accordance with the terms of use here on Badweb.
I dunno why I would call anybody stupid, lazy, worthless or any of those names. My point is that the union wants you to think that you are so that you will keep paying their dues. If you think you are a dipshit, chances are you won't strike out on your own.
(Message edited by lowflyer on November 23, 2006) |
Lowflyer
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 05:14 pm: |
|
"No, but it sounds like you do."
Of course I do. That would be stupid for me to say, "No, please pay me less and make me work harder." |
Lowflyer
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 05:19 pm: |
|
"I call that unpatriotic,don't you care AT ALL for your fellow American?? WTF!!!"
That is because you have a warped idea of what is or is not patriotic. Patriotic to you is homogenizing the American workforce so that everybody sucks equally.
Since when did it my citizenship and/or patriotism become conditional upon my joining some idiotic union? |
Lowflyer
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 05:23 pm: |
|
Nutbolt,
I was in the USAF for 8 years on CSAR helos. Did my time in the desert, Bosnia, and Somalia. I secured my own right to bitch. |
Lowflyer
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 05:25 pm: |
|
Cute little red stars. |
Lowflyer
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 05:31 pm: |
|
Ya know lowflyer, now you are getting personal. Can't support myself in a free market? Marginally skilled people? Bend the company to our will? You are proving just how ignorant you truly are.
None of what I have posted is meant as a personal affront to any one person. I am attacking the union mentality. Not the individual. I don't take any of this seriously anyway. To me this is a friendly debate. Any hostility you are picking up is probably related to the fact I just don't give a shit how you feel about any of it.
All of the cursing, name calling, and carrying on about how much money you make illustrates perfectly why union people need unions. They are not capable of intelligent debate. They aren't smart enough to speak intelligently on their own behalf without using the lord's name in vein or threatening bodily harm. Strength in numbers, I reckon.
As for me, I don't want to sign a paper and pay dues to show that my work is only as worthy as the guy next to me; seniority notwithstanding. I'd rather be paid for what my work is actually worth. That forces me to work harder and smarter. It forces me to excel or starve. I have been on both sides of the union debate. It took me about 6 months of outperforming the jackass next to me for half the pay before I realized what my life would be like if I continued in this mode. I would have turned into a jaded, miserable conformist union slacker with a hard case of potty-mouth just like everyone around me at that time. Instead, I get to be a smartass with a spotless collar.
How would you like to pay for your cable tv based upon how long the cable company has been in business and how many licenses it holds? How would you like to have to pay an automatic extra $20/month every year with no appreciable change in the service? Fack that.
(Message edited by lowflyer on November 22, 2006) |
Rum_runner
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 05:35 pm: |
|
You know i didn't start this thread to bash the union. I started it to get some answears to what i needed to know. I got them and took care of the problem. Now you guys are fighting over whos the more skilled. We had a fatality in our main plant last night. Its the first fatality our company has ever had. He got smashed between a forktruck and a support beam. So weather he was union or not who cares. His wife & kids are still on their own now. The person driving the forktruck had a nervous breakdown. so how i look at it we lost do good men and who cares if their union or not. So thank you for the answears i needed. But lets grow up and stop pointing fingers. |
Rocketsprink
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 05:50 pm: |
|
Sorry to hear the news. |
Bigdaddy
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 06:05 pm: |
|
I believe you fine folks, union and non-union, have beat this one to death.
If you can't keep it civil you should keep it in your head.
G2 |
|
