| Author | Message | ||
     Court |
Good idea. . . engage a $600/hr attorney to fight for your God given right to recover $42. I see this as quite like when Reg Kittrelle closed down Battle2Win. I don't recall a person, when given a choice, who didn't say "keep it". Think of administering the alternatives. . . allowing folks to remain B.R.A.G. members until their membership expires? Please . . I want the folks at Buell and Buell owners off and on the road to greater things, unencumbered. If anyone if REALLY wanting to demand their money back, drop me a note and let me know your membership #, when and how much you paid. Court | ||
| Wolfridgerider |
Does that mean you will help me raise the funds for a new Drummer?....hehe | ||
| Csg_inc |
Wow Court....take a breath....In Reg's case it was one of the biggest loses to Buell Owners I could think of...I joined three local BRAG chapters here and they all died very quickly (it must be me). I was just asking if I had the longest paid up membership no longer is existence. I bet I could make a bundle on E-Bay selling my BRAG card good thru 2010. By the way my attorney bills out at $1,000/hr (and you thought NY prices were high) | ||
| Jimidan |
Court sez: "Good idea. . . engage a $600/hr attorney to fight for your God given right to recover $42. $600/hr Attorney!? I don't even know any $600 attorneys (F. Lee Baileys), and I know a lot of lawyers. Besides, I don't know who's idea it was to get a lawyer involved, but it wasn't mine!  Some of these guys were signed up for multi-years 2010 (0r More?), so we are talking about considerably more than $42. We are also NOT talking about Reg and Battle2Win (I am one who told Reg to just keep it, after I begged him not to pull the plug!), but Buell Corporation, a wholly owned sub of HD. I don't have near the affinity for a major corp (even Buell) that I do for Reg, who was producing a labor of love (worth much more than his cover price) more than trying to make money. As you know, when you are dealing with a corporation, and its lawyers, a contract is a contract. Don't take my word for it, ask any $600/hr lawyer.  I guarantee you that if any of those guys had reneged on a contractual agreement with Buell that amounted to $160+, that Buell corporate's lawyers would not have told them just to keep it...and they would have spent a lot more than that to get it, if they had to. We all know they would. But that really is beside the point, as I believe that if any of these guys would request a refund in writing, that they would get it. If not, then they do have a legal recourse in most states...which is all I was really saying. The fact that you have offered to be an intermediary is a noble gesture, and is commendable though. jimidan} | ||
| Court |
Lest we be deterred by the myriad of fascinating side roads, let me see if I can convince you of something. The elimination of B.R.A.G., in it's familiar form, is a wonderful step and speaks volumes that someone at Buell, subscribing no doubt to the "if it ain't working, don't keep doing it" way of thinking has decided to move ahead. My bet, I'll know for sure in 10 days, is that this is the first overt sign of some coming changes. Call me a radical independent, but I keep clicking on the www.buell.com website just because I LOVE seeing an "OWNERS" tab! This is GREAT progress and I suspect just getting to this point has been roughly analogous to pushing a beach ball through cold syrup. I **THINK** there is a strong "we're getting better at listening, now we need to learn how to communicate with owners" mindset at Buell. Please be mindful that, corporately, they have much to learn and doing anything that HD hasn't done in the past evokes varying forms of resistance. The point is that improvements in the BUELL OWNERSHIP EXPERIENCE are beginning (unlike the Intrepid) to MOVE FORWARD!~ I for one, call me an optimisticalaciousnist, am overjoyed, will be joining folks like Rich at Homecoming. It was fun in the days when the "new" Buell was the radical evo-engined RR1200 and it's even MORE FUN today. That's the way I see it . . . Court | ||
| Csg_inc |
Oh....shucks I miss spoke... My Attorney bills out at $100/hr not $1,000. (Man I would not want to put Court's guy on hold @ $10/minute) Just trying to get in the right frame of mind over all this. You know now we can BRAG about being the guys with the BO..... | ||
| Steve_mackay |
The elimination of B.R.A.G., in it's familiar form, is a wonderful step and speaks volumes that someone at Buell, subscribing no doubt to the "if it ain't working, don't keep doing it" way of thinking has decided to move ahead. More like, if it it ain't working, eliminate it, and alienate many of your most loyal customers and dealers. Call me a radical independent, but I keep clicking on the www.buell.com website just because I LOVE seeing an "OWNERS" tab! And this is different from clicking on the BRAG tab, how? If you haven't guessed it, yup, I'm still a bit perturbed by all of this. And see no benefit besides the $40 or $50 a year we wont have to spend. I'm just not going to drink the kool aide on this issue and try to spin positive on this, when there is nothing positive to spin... | ||
| Wolfridgerider |
I will be happy If Buell doesn't get Elton John to play at any Homecoming events...... | ||
| Court |
I believe the folks at Buell and am giving them the benefit of the doubt. I think they can pull it off. I also like that the new format is shaping up one that, by the mere mechanics of it's construction, will encourage and enable two-way communication and more Buell specific stuff. The folks, nice as they were, at the B.R.A.G. controls were, in real life, pretty disconnected from things Buell. The folks at Buell, in making this move, have upped the ante and have a lot to prove. I'll be eager to see how they do. | ||
| Court |
>>>>I will be happy If Buell doesn't get Elton John to play at any Homecoming events...... That was the same group that was running B.R.A.G. Now.......you know the "rest of the problem".  | ||
| Wolfridgerider |
You just made my day!! JUST SAY NO TO ELTON | ||
| Steve_mackay |
Those benefits have always been there to BRAG members. The elimination of BRAG was a corporate cost cutting move IMHO. They no longer have to pay the insurance for the local groups. They now put that in the hands of the dealers and the small groups. Again, alienating the most loyal customers and dealerships. To Fix B.R.A.G. would have been minor IMHO. Hire *ONE* Buell enthusiast. But instead, they did the corporate thing and just eliminated it. Please, show us what benefits there is beyond what BRAG gave us? I can see only one, and it's minor. We don't have the $40 or $50 a year fee. | ||
| Buellistic |
Just got off the phone with BRAG ... They took the remainder of my BRAG and moved it to my HOG Membership which extended it from May07 to Sept07 ... The word is, move it or loose it($$.$$) !!! In HOGing LaFayette (Message edited by buellistic on November 07, 2006) (Message edited by buellistic on November 07, 2006) | ||
| Court |
We have EVERYTHING we had before. We are unconstrained by the limits (there were many things that the folks who TRIED to run B.R.A.G. were simply NOT ALLOWED to do) The insurance rightfully belongs in the hands of those most closely involved with the local events. Let's face it, for a while the most dangerous thing you could do (correct me if anyone has attended an event where more than 9 motorcycles were crashed in a single day) on a Buell was attend a B.R.A.G. event. Who knows the local risks and how to deal with them better than the locals? You may have noted that Buell was, not long ago, advertising for some sort of "owner advocate" or something. The terminology was like "owner interface manager" or something. They've added a couple folks who I think can bring a lot to the events. I, like you guys, know damned little about how this actually came about, but I'm sure excited about seeing how it works out. I'll be seeing a bunch of folks at Buell next week and hope to hear more about Homecoming, website developments and future events. I'll be willing to concede that Buell did a rather poor (like it SUCKED) job of communicating this. It was like being introduced to the qualities of aluminum by taking the bottom of a frying pan in the face. Tact. . . . that's what I'll tell them. | ||
| Court |
>>>They took the remainder of my BRAG and moved it to my HOG Membership which extended it from May07 to Sept07 ... Damn you Layfayette. . you are ALWAYS looking for solutions! You mean you really did something like pick up a phone and talk to someone about a concern? You slay me. | ||
| Csg_inc |
Darn I wish I had thought of that Layfayette...but wait I already have a LIFE membership to HOG. I just went to the Help function and got this answer. ------------------------------- What if I lose my BRAGŪ membership manual? -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Please call 1-888-432-2724 and we will send you a new copy. Remember that the benefits in your BRAGŪ membership are only available until your membership expires. After that, register at buell.com to get the latest news and information about Buell and the benefits of being a Buell owner. --------------------------------- So what is my problem? Man they just told me my full member benefits last till my membership expires. So there you have it.....BRAG at least for me will be around till at least 2010. You guys should have re-uped sooner. Boy I just love this contract stuff. Of course I might be in a Group of One but is sure is fun to be different in every ...... So Court when you talk to the boys in Blue ask them if I read that wrong? I need to fill in the part about how well this answered my question? | ||
| Wolfridgerider |
Just as long as my Buell Vin# gets me in the door at HOG events I'll be happy. | ||
| Court |
That's funny. Written, doubtless, by lawmakers or legal. | ||
| Jimidan |
Court sez: The folks, nice as they were, at the B.R.A.G. controls were, in real life, pretty disconnected from things Buell. The folks at Buell, in making this move, have upped the ante and have a lot to prove. I'll be eager to see how they do. I hope you are right, but I am not sure that you really understand how good BRAG members had it on the old "Adventure" rides that Peggy put together...like the Northeast Tour, for instance. For about $40 for members we had a 5 day ride to Maine, a tour of the Motorcycle Museum in Columbus, several free banquet style meals, big parties with food at all stops (@ Buell dealerships) every evening (5, count 'em), free Buell merchandise (including a backpack), free group photos, free critical support available for mechanical failures (mechanic on duty), and spare luggage transport was available for additional cost. Maybe someone can explain to me how these types of benefits were disconnected from things Buell or broken? Court, I don't ever remember seeing you on any of the BRAG Adventure rides, so I am guessing that you just didn't know what we had before or you would see why some of us are not as enthusiastic about these "enhancements". That isn't even including all the beni's of belonging to a local chapter. BTW, Buell, you can just keep the money for the remainder of my BRAG membership...I ain't joining/moving it to HOG fer' nothin'!  } There is absolutely nothing that we can do about it as it was a unilateral decision by corporate...so all we can do is vent. I know you have contacts that we don't so we can also hope we don't lose too much. I wonder if part of the reasons that Buell dropped BRAG were that it had to do with getting sued by participants who crashed...speaking of lawyers. jimidan | ||
| Jimidan |
I will be happy If Buell doesn't get Elton John to play at any Homecoming events.... What about Phil Collins then? jimi} | ||
| Csg_inc |
Hey I found another Enhancement to the new way of doing things. Currently per BRAG FUELL comes out every two months so 6 times a year. If you go to Buell.com FAQ you find the Enhancement that FUELL will publish four times in 2007 and that number of issues is subject to change. OK I tried like Lafayette to increase my HOG duration but they refused to let me get Life plus 4 years. | ||
| Wolfridgerider |
Phil Collins, Now thats funny! (Message edited by wolfridgerider on November 07, 2006) | ||
| Court |
>>>they refused to let me get Life plus 4 years. How about "doing life without parole"? Wait. . . that lines taken. As the sun sets over the Statue of Liberty, I'm not finding much here I disagree with. I think Peggy and company did a marvy job and the Northeast tour you mention was one of the most popular of all the B.R.A.G. rides. I'm not sure the new structure, per se, precludes that type of thing. I, similarly, have never seen some folks on the Adventure Rides I've been on. I've met just a tad over 3,500 Buell owners....problem is the number is growing faster than I can scoot around the country in my sunset years. P.S. - and I probably need to say so, or my phone will be ringing when I get home, but I think Peggy, Leslie, Nora, Amy and all the folks who've steered the B.R.A.G. go-kart have done a great job. I'm not sure the suit ever fit quite right and I know they did great things with precious little resources. They are all, to boot, very nice and dedicated people. Leslie, when I first met her, was working at Farrow's in Ohio and make no mistake she is a dyed in the wool Buell fanatic. | ||
| Davegess |
Guys, my vote is voice your concerns and let the folks in East Troy have a go at getting this thing all set up before we start hintin' at fraud and gettin' screwed and all. Buell has been a pretty stand up company from day one and as long as Erik is allowed to hang around in a responsible postion they will continue to do so. My thought is that this is just the first salvo in a campaign. will we all like it more or less? We won't know 'till we see it all. | ||
| Jimidan |
That sounds like good advice Court and Davegess. Jimidan | ||
| Csg_inc |
Jimidan, Court and Davegess Ok I am going to go back and sit in the corner for awhile. But before I go Jimidan hit the nail on the head about how great the "Adventure" rides were and I am right there with you Court on wanting to thank the "gals" that ran it. As for that "doing Life without Parole" that sure fits my old classmate EFB now doesn't? | ||
| Tattoodnscrewd |
Court, you say we have everything we had before ... Please explain how .. Steve brought up the main thing that we do not have now .. and that is one of the biggest to lose. It wasn't the locals who handled everything .. it was again under the BRAG umbrella ..so it was covered through the local sponsoring dealer (because of BRAG) - without that umbrella - what dealer will step up without corporate backing to actually cover/sponsor different events ... Like I said in my post earlier in this thread - Who is going to step up financially to fill the shoes formerly wore by the dealers ? I just don't see it. That is also where Steve was going with his comments. Of course locals will still do their things, and have their rides. But the dealers out there that were pro-Buell (Such as Hal's in New Berlin) are probably not going to step up anymore. As I said earlier and as Steve said .. alienating the most loyal customers AS WELL AS dealers. IMHO everything else is minor ..so I get FUELL .. nice add-on but definitely not why I joined BRAG .. We are not just saying we as customers/owners are the only affected by this - but the pro-Buell dealerships as well - which will trickle down to us owners.. Also like I said in my other post - You think it's bad at the dealer now for Buell .. wait and see - I find it hard to believe that we will still get support/help from any dealer.. Having a website for us all to congregate to is nice .. but it will not substitute for getting live help - in person from the dealer .. (I know - not all dealer's are any help .. but there are a bunch out there) .. How does that replace having dealer/corporate support? Buy a Buell now and you can go out on your own and find a group if you want to be part of a group of fellow enthusiasts because the dealer no longer will be involved like they are/were with BRAG .. And as stated before - not everyone on a Buell uses the internet ... so a website with an owner's tab doesn't quite satisfy all. I agree with Steve - corporate cost-cutting is IMHO what this was. I guess I added another 2 cents this thread ... Brian | ||
| Spank |
Ya know, if I remember right back in '98 (when I got into this Buell deal)B.R.A.G. wasn't exclusive. You just had to pay extra for the dinner at homecoming and things like that, and things were fine then. I have been known to be wrong and this could be one of those times......... | ||
| Gomo |
First I stated we were an imaginative bunch, but after all these posts I can also add restless. It hasn't been a week since the announcement of BRAG being dissolved and some folks are already chanting the "What have done for me lately" song. Probably 99% of the Buell owners out there that did not belong to BRAG do not even know of this news (and more likely don't care either). BRAG, as much as most of us enjoyed it, was technically a corporate anchor in the middle of the dessert. It is obvious that Buell owners do not join organizations like H-D owners. Since Buell owners ride to a different beat, we deserve a different drum. Not a hashed over HOG thing for Buells - something we can call our own. We can continue our previous BRAG clubs without the restrictions that may have kept some away and/or disinterested. We have been given the chance to create and be adventurous. If things like insurance costs a going to stop a club, consider that the collected costs of the members BRAG yearly fees could pay for the majority of the insurance bill. Or you can have your membership join the AMA (which is less than a BRAG membership by a couple of bucks)for insurance needs (as posted before). So what's stopping you from going out and doing what you did before? Buell is still planning on Regional events - now to all Buell owners, Fuell magazine for those interested in receiving it as well as planning on listing local clubs. Sometimes you need to remove the non growing parts for things to grow better -like a plant (geez I'm starting to sound like Chauncy Gardner in Being There - great film). My vote for Election Day will have to go to Court, Davegess, and the others that are saying "let's wait and see", this could be really good........... Just a Thought (Message edited by gomo on November 07, 2006) | ||
| Bads1 |
Didn't I say that Gomo ??? But you said it better,thank you.  |
