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Rasmonis
| | Posted on Sunday, November 12, 2006 - 12:16 pm: | 
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Need we mention all the BS the last administration got away with?
Clinton was a disgrace to the Office of the President, instead of dealing with SH, cleaning up Bush senior's mess and taking on the terrorists then, he has busy getting sucked off in the "Oral Office".
Says a lot about his priorities as Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces, his character and integrity. Not only did he get away with infidelity and misuse of his position, he blatantly lied publicly about his actions then changed his tune (never once addressed the fact that he lied) once he figured out there was evidence implicating him (DNA).
His ineptitude and inability to effectively lead the military in Iraq, Somalia or fighting AlQaeda, put us in the right place at the wrong time - let someone else deal with it, "I've got some "hard" work to do in the Oval Office, excuse me gentlemen...er, Monica care to give me a hand?"
While the death toll to US troops during his presidency was nothing compared to Bush's, consider all of the civilians that died as a result of his lack of action and commitment to address terrorism head on.
Like I stated earlier, give me a break.
America has spoken with their votes this past election. Let's hope that both parties can work past their differences and come up with a good plan that will work for the Iraqi people, Middle East and the brave men and women who are serving in the military and supporting contractors. |
Frankfast
| | Posted on Sunday, November 12, 2006 - 06:19 pm: |
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Supporting contractors? Like Halliburton? Give ME a break. |
Cowboy
| | Posted on Sunday, November 12, 2006 - 07:33 pm: |
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When are you people going to get over this Haliburton thing?
They have taken some pretty hard licks in the past.
As a employe of them for 38 yrs. I know a few things about them.you are casting a lot of bad things about some very good and hard working men.( I know that some bad things happen at the top)
Here is a few things you may not know.
During the v'nam thing every piece of equipment that went over ther was handled by them.
The largest stock holder was Lady Bird Johnson. I never heard a word about them then.(Wife of Democrat president)
Do think that happened with no graft??????
Spent 1yr in pakistan developing thier oil. They were operating on a loan from world bank. We had to NO charge a full yr of services. what a loss.
They paid over $250000000 a yr in income taxes on our be half (forien employes)
Next All epuipment and past revenue was lost
when the shaw of Iran was replaced.(loss greater than I dare to say)
I know they are a large Co. If they were not they could not do the job given to them
Thier fleet of cars and trucks on the road is 2nd only to the US army.
I am not defending any crooked actions.
But hell be fair do you think they only stole from republicans.
Both parties were lining thier pockets.
You and I know how it works. Both Dem. and Rep. are out to screw the small people.I could go on for ever but I think you get the picture.
Remember the money at the top is owned by Rep. and Dem. alike. Now I have had my dimes worth. bye |
Aka_dark_lord
| | Posted on Monday, November 13, 2006 - 10:48 am: |
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Voting by definition is the selection of the lesser of two evils.... |
Rasmonis
| | Posted on Monday, November 13, 2006 - 11:33 am: |
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FYI,
I doubt that any of the "crooks" or VP's running those companies have spent 1 second in Iraq/Afghanistan, I was talking about the civilian service men and women doing the work, risking their lives along with the troops. |
Frankfast
| | Posted on Monday, November 13, 2006 - 12:39 pm: |
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Hey my beef is never with the people who actually work for a living whether in uniform or not. In that respect we're all grunts. However, because you wear a uniform or work for a company like Halliburton doesn't necessarily mean you wish to be in harms way. I have to believe that those serving in Afghanistan and Iraq must sometimes wonder whether there is enough cause for them to be sticking their necks out. Surely, many of them had no choice in the matter and would much rather be home. The leadership is always the problem because their decisions are not based upon life or death situations. They constantly talk about how courageous these men and women are in order to keep the morale up. The effort in Iraq was misguided and doomed to failure. Let's bring these people home. |
Court
| | Posted on Monday, November 13, 2006 - 01:48 pm: |
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I've had 4 "mercenary" calls to go and, as fun as it is to think about now that I'd in my sunset years, my wife quickly vetoed (with no argument from me) the idea.
It's great money. . . IF you live through it. I happen to be in a business where we climb up in towers and become about the best targets in the country.
After having some linemen plinked, Bechtel has packed their toys and come home. Washington Group may still be a player and I think DMJM would like to, but likely won't.
Interesting enough the last "big $$" mercenary call I got was Los Angeles Power and Water who has a $2B project and can't staff it. There is talk about bringing 350 Iraqui, of course trained by Americans, into CA to work. I'm calling that one unlikely. |
Bigdaddy
| | Posted on Monday, November 13, 2006 - 02:47 pm: |
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I'd guess that the very top of the food chain is really cleaning up -- don't really know.
I worked with a bunch of contracting agencies/companies (Hali, KBR, TRW/NG, GE, Lockheed, Harris, etc, etc, etc.) What I found in my time as a military contractor was that the vast majority of folks down-range were ex-military or retired military. Those of us that retired from the military spent years, and freaking years, scrimping by while raising families and moving every three years -- you can bet your cajones a bunch of us cashed in when given the opportunity. Many just banked the money, some blew it in exotic locations doing exotic things, some went with a mission -- like, pay off the house and three sets of college tuition, etc.
If you had, and if you still have, the right skill-set there was plenty of money to be made. I never could figure out some of the more labor intensive jobs that were paying sub 100K rates and of course you'd get the federal tax break too. I also knew some guys, Northrop and Lockheed, drawing hazardous duty pay while working from Doha and Arifjon and eating at Fudruckers -- that's a sweet gig if you can get past the whole Kuwait really sucks thing.
Oh well,,,,,mercenary?
G2 |
Rasmonis
| | Posted on Monday, November 13, 2006 - 03:37 pm: |
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Frank,
"The effort in Iraq was misguided and doomed to failure. Let's bring these people home"
Your comments on this "conflict" are surprising to me coming from a combat veteran. Surely you must realize the ill effects our premature withdrawal from this effort would have on that region as well as abroad. Whatever the reason for this war, I believe it was inevitable that the US would have a significant fight in the middle east. If anything I'm not sure why Iran wasn't the next target instead of Iraq. Politics no doubt.
These people (insurgents - Iranian, Palestinian, Syrian...) hate our government (not us) because they believe we have belittled them and they are tired of being thought of and treated like a "third world" community. They want to be on an equal playing field with the western nations (this information came from a documentary where Palestinian and Iranian college students where interviewed about their thoughts on western nations. It came out on public access TV about 1 year into this war) and I can empathize with that, why shouldn't they be treated equal? Because they are third world and behave as such. They want to be treated equally yet their culture treats women worse than slaves. Public display of torture and murder by the government, kidnapping as of family members to rule by fear - these are known facts, I've seen the videos. You have experienced first hand the mentality of underprivileged people have you not? They think differently; simpler perhaps (please do not mistake this for me saying they are stupid or dumb, my vocabulary is limited). It is easy for a dictator to influence and take advantage of these people. Their problem lies in the fact that they allow themselves to be governed by evil people, they then become victims incapable of changing the leadership because of fear. I could not imagine what it would be like to live that way. With freedom and education comes enlightenment and with all three we will see great things come out of the middle east.
I would not expect civilians to understand, and I become irritated when hearing about how we should be fighting this war from people with 0% military experience.
You of all people must understand that warfare is chaotic and that mission plans change on the fly depending on a multitude of factors. Equally irritating are the people saying this should have been over a long time ago? When we agreed to enter this war did people actually expect it to be over in a year? What fairytale world do they live in cause I want to go! War is unpredictable. There is no way any president or congress (government) once choosing to involve their country in a military conflict can plan an entire war and have timetable - no one can do this, at least not in today's world.
Please correct me if I'm wrong as I was an infant/toddler during the conflict in Vietnam, but from what I understand there is a similarity here in that like in Vietnam the Americans and allies are restricted in how they can engage the enemy. I've heard this from a several veterans. Like in Vietnam, the enemy fought unconventionally, used women and children as shields and performed their own atrocities on our soldiers, yet the US was criticized like now.
This is not conventional warfare, this was predicted early on. The fear that it would turn into an urban fight eventually came true. So because the way the enemy fights changed we should cut out and leave? No, we learn a new way to engage the enemy. Until everyone agrees to fight using only paintballs, there will be casualties of war and innocent people will die that's just the way it is.
Unfortunately, the Democrats are not going to have a better plan on how to fight and end this, and if they manage to come up with a way to leave Iraq prematurely, our way of living in the US will change in a way more dramatic than since 9/11 - count on that.
I now some of my comments may appear derogatory and I apologiz}e to any person offended, these are just my opinions, I just cannot write as well as some of you.
This is tough, it's amazing differently how people think. While my ramblings make total sense to me, they must appear ridiculous to some or many of you.
(Message edited by Rasmonis on November 13, 2006) |
Bomber
| | Posted on Monday, November 13, 2006 - 03:49 pm: |
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Ras -- you're statements about viet nam are correct (imagine LBJ sitting in the oval office and picking arc light strike targets, for instance) -- it made no sense then, and it makes no sense now
while you may be right about what the Democrats may or may not do regarding Iraq, I don't know too many people who are satisfied with the status quo -- our military (and their civilian commanders) did a great job of persecuting the military conflict agains the Iraqi military. any failure (or lack of success) since that time is certainly not on their shoulders, but, rather, on those folks that made the policy.
you're right about combat -- it alters plans fasters than an NFL blitz -- however, a good staretgy should be able to survive a number of necessary tactical changes --
a good exit strategy may not, in fact, be possible -- I don't believe that repeating our previous two year's experience would have yielded anything different that what we got -- I would characterize what we got as being not what we wanted, and certainly not what the majority of the Iraqi people wanted either.
Time to try something else. the trick will be to determine a something else that's better than today. |
Rasmonis
| | Posted on Monday, November 13, 2006 - 07:15 pm: |
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Bomber,
Thanks for validating some of my thoughts.
I agree that something new has to be done, and hope that our government can work as one team to find a viable solution. It is a mess, and obviously the doctrine we've followed thus far has proven to be ineffective. The battlefield has changed dramatically since Gulf War I. There is no humane way to win a war. This enemy will only succumb to extreme force and fear, history tells us so, it's ingrained in their culture.
"Unfortunately, the Democrats are not going to have a better plan on how to fight and end this..."
The truth of the matter is that IMO, success will require tactics the American people and the world at large will not approve. I am no military strategist, I've never won a game of RISK or chess, and totally sux at military sim games (my life expectancy in a combat scenario would be less than 5 seconds), but I believe that to accomplish this mission, we will have to play by our own set of rules regardless of the criticism. The problem being the long lasting negative effects this would have on future conflicts and the immediate backlash from pretty much everyone for fighting the enemy by kicking them in the balls or taking the gloves off. It will also require maintaining a presence (not necessarily a visible presence) in the region for quite some time.
We are not just fighting Iraqi militants, we're also indirectly fighting Iran, left over Al-Qaeda, Syria, Islamic Fundamentalists and everyone else that has issues with the USA. It is an epic battle for the enemy, they're fighting Goliath and Satan after all. Imagine the stories going back home from the insurgents who fought against America.
So what to do? I wish someone knew. I hope we get to see peace within the next 5-10 years if not sooner, but the prospect of this happening is highly unlikely. I think global peace will only come from a globally catastrophic event that will force mankind to unite in order to survive.
(Message edited by Rasmonis on November 13, 2006) |
Asdf
| | Posted on Monday, November 13, 2006 - 11:46 pm: |
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What I still find to be amazing is that whenever I was in Iraq, I was certain that there was positive progress. I based my opinion on what I saw in neighborhoods in and around Baghdad, as well as through interaction with Locals, Local Cops, and our Troops.
When I came back to the USA, I find out that we are losing, and that the Cause is not winnable.
I then go back to Iraq, and we are making progress again... (Repeat several times, always the same... Home for now, Afghanistan up next)
Of all of the combat troops that I worked with, I do not recall any of them thinking that the situation over there was not winnable. I am sure that there were some who disagreed with the war, but I never encountered any of them.
On the other hand, what is happening here in the USA was predicted by many. Even I estimated that we needed to get things pretty well stabilized within two years. I am not a political expert, by any definition!
I expected that public opinion would begin to falter after two years. I was wrong... The Public did not begin to seriously falter until after 2-1/2 years.
This country will not support MOST wars that last very long. Our enemies were counting on this... They have boasted of this to Open Source Western Media since late 2003.
We have proved them to be correct. |
Johnnymceldoo
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 12:43 am: |
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A stabilized and self governing Iraq is very bad for democrats Asdf. |
Asdf
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 01:14 am: |
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I am sorry that we are about to abandon some very brave folks. They deserve better.
With luck, they may manage to finish the job that we started. I hope so, as they have suffered greatly, based on their faith in our promises to them.
I fully understand that many young Iraqi men join the Military and the Police due to poor economic circumstances. Some others will join to engage in institutionalized corruption and graft.
I also understand that many others join under orders from their Militia or Insurgent Commanders, in order to infiltrate the Iraqi Army and Police.
However, I am certain that most of them want to serve their country. Those that have ulterior motives are being slowly (Painfully slowly) rooted out.
Every week, they line up in long lines that are blocks long, to obtain an application to join the Military or Police. They do this knowing that they have a HIGH chance of being killed while they are standing in that line.
If a bomb does go off in the line, they assist as much as possible. Then, they get back in line.
If they are "Lucky" enough to be selected for the Military, or the Police in particular, they will face incredible danger. Even their families will be in danger. Yet, they line up and die, every week.
Once a young man becomes a Cop, he will most likely be assigned to a Check Point. These guys are sitting ducks. Their mortality rate is horrific. Yet, they try to do the job, and they try their best to smile, while they wait to be blown up.
A common theme among them is that they fully expect to die. They do this for their children. They will tell you this with a straight face, in an utterly calm, fatalistic voice.
It is truly humbling to be among such men. |
Rasmonis
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 07:14 am: |
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Asdf,
First, thank you for your service, me and my family really appreciate it.
The lack of resolve and loss of hope by a majority of the US public to see this to the end saddens me.
It is easy to do though, when the most difficult decision some have to make is which latte to pick from the menu at Starbucks. Big difference between our standard of living and those who are dying daily for a change to better their children's lives. The American public is too detached to care and the Gov. and media have not portrayed what's going on over there fairly. |
Nevrenuf
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 07:56 am: |
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how can a stabalized iraq be bad for democrats when halliburton is run by republicans. if things got more stable over there than they would have to find another war to go make money on. is your name really rush, cause that sounds like something you would hear over the radio from him. and i do not listen to him i just listen to the morning radio station that has him on later in the day and you always get this tokyo rose type comment from him during the morning show. don't forget that most of your military is made up of working class people or less and most of your working class people are democrats. on my father's side of the family don't know of any one of his ancestor's before him that were in the military. i can say i was the first in quite a few years. they were all business owners.
i never run across anyone in the service that said their father was a ceo of some big corporation, they were just plain folk for the most part. as far as making any part of the middle east a democracy goes, i don't think the majority of the people understand what it stands for. i was in the middle east also in 77/78, we are as unwelcomed now as we were then. i am a democrat, i welcome any chance for a country to become a democratic society but i just don't see it happening neither quickly or easy. untill you get them to change their way of thinking they will never be nothing but a third world country. the only way to change their way of thinking is to teach them, and the only people who can teach them are their own people who have first hand experience of democracy. once again i may be right, i may be wrong only time will tell. |
Bomber
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 09:24 am: |
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A stabilized and self governing Iraq is very bad for democrats
hmmmmm -- spoken like a true partisan politician --
A stabil and self governing Iraq is, I believe, near the top of the world's wish list -- certainly it is for all the democrats I know. |
Bomber
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 09:28 am: |
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ASDF -- let me echo other's sentiments and thank you for your service -- I'm sure what you say and have seen is true.
Given those truths, I certainly wish that the folks in charge (here in the states as well as in Iraq) would offer the same data in a rational, cogent manner that transcended the sound bite retoric we've been getting for the last couple of years. |
Mainstreamer
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 02:04 pm: |
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Asdf, well said and thank you for your service to our country. |
Asdf
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 08:46 pm: |
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Thank you all for your kind words. I appreciate them.
We all do our part, in our own way. I am not special. Therefore, THANK YOU!
I am not against the reduction in our leadership and combat role over there. In fact, the transition has already been in progress for more than a year.
After all, our goal is to work ourselves out of the job, as quickly as practical. I just hope that we do not phase down too soon or too quickly.
Our ultimate goal is to have the Iraqis fend for themselves as a free nation. That means that we must let them proceed on their own at some point.
There is a right time for everything. It would be a shame if politics, rather than reality in-Theater, determined our timing.
I believe that we have come a long way toward our ultimate goal. I hope that our efforts are not squandered for domestic political expedience or domestic political advantage.
I suspect that history will verify that we made some huge mistakes in this campaign. Yet, despite those mistakes, past and present, we continue to make progress.
Progress over there is undoubtedly slower than what we had predicted or expected.
However, I believe that our progress over there is better than what we SHOULD have predicted or expected.
Keep the faith & stay safe! |
Rasmonis
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 10:47 pm: |
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Asdf,
I for one am in complete agreement with your statements.
I believe that leaving prematurely will embolden the insurgency and work as a better recruitment tool for them than us staying there and giving them a force to deal with. |
Oldog
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 11:20 pm: |
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There is a right time for everything. It would be a shame if politics, rather than reality in-Theater, determined our timing.
Asdf:
You are right on so many counts in my eyes
too bad the "Arm Chair generals" rather than the men who understand will make the decisions, I for one am tired of the Bashing the current admin is getting - no one is fielding a better plan just critizising to make themselves look better.
Also to leave for political expediency is to disrespect every American and Iraqui service person who gave their life to end the oppression } |
Hootowl
| | Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 04:41 pm: |
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I am very tired of hearing about how evil Haliburton is. You go over there and do the job if you think its so easy. |
Arbalest
| | Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 10:16 am: |
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Hootowl, because the job is difficult, does not make political graft right, or acceptable. There is no ill will towards the good folks that are on the ground, at risk, in Iraq, as employees of Halliburton. The ire is aimed at the crooks at the top(Halliburton execs and politicians) who are robbing the U.S. taxpayers blind, and lining their pockets with the proceeds. |
Hootowl
| | Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 11:33 am: |
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Show me a CEO of a major corporation who ISN'T lining his or her pockets, and then you can bitch about Haliburton. They all make way too much money if you ask me. No one is that valuable. |
Arbalest
| | Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 11:36 am: |
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Again, just because "everyone is doing it", doesn't make it right. |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 12:07 pm: |
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They all make way too much money if you ask me. No one is that valuable.
Yeah, I mean, who do they think they are, BALLPLAYERS??!! |
Hootowl
| | Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 02:48 pm: |
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The Bush-Cheney haters are piling on...that's what pisses me off. If they were really upset about corporate greed, they'd be going after larger targets. But they're not...they just want to bash the President.
Haliburton got an extension to a legally bid existing contract. There were no kickbacks to Cheney. No good 'ol boy network underhanded backroom deals. No war profiteering. The Army already investigated that, found a small overcharge, which was refunded. That happens routinely in large businesses...that's why we have auditors. Happens to us all the time where I work. Our auditors catch it, and our vendors refund the money. Sometimes their auditors catch money we owe them. The amount involved that the Army auditors found was not out of line or excessive. No one at Haliburton was trying to pull a fast one.
So when I hear people say "Bush Cheney Haliburton evil" in the same sentence, as the left is fond of doing as a preface to all their rants, it pisses me off. It also lowers the ranter's credibility, in my opinion, and I'm less likely to take anything he or she says seriously. |
Bomber
| | Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 05:26 pm: |
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Hoot -- fully agreed -- folks on BOTH sides of the aisle need to get better mannered and more thoughtful (read the right-wing rantings on this very board for yet more examples) |
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