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José_quiñones
| | Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 08:09 am: | 
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BTW, Ducati explains that they can make up this 15 hp difference through two factors, better aerodynamics and traction control. There's another factor, Troy Bayliss, look how far back Lanzi is on the second factory bike.
Back on topic, the "200 HP" MotoCzysz
RRW, September 2006, has an excellent article about the progress the company is making.
Page 140-141: The current plan is to ask the AMA to let the MotoCzysz to take the "VR1000 mulligan" and let it race in AMA Superbike after only building 50 bikes, assuming both the AMA rules group and MotoCzysz are still around by then. They target 2008 to being racing in the AMA.
(Message edited by josé_quiñones on August 27, 2006) |
Grndskpr
| | Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 08:21 am: |
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Simply factor that by 1000cc/600cc and you have 208 rwhp for a Superstock literbike
This is a Buell site, so will use buell for my examples to keep it easy
Buell's XB9R produces 92 HP with 984cc's, acording to what you have stated above the XB12R should produce about %20 more hp based on the fact that the xb12r is 1203cc's, problem is it dosent, it only produces 103, %20 bigger engine %10 more hp
calculate why, dont forget to add in a few problems with size, and then come back to me with an HP rating, i suspect you will come in at around 200-215
Consider too that the WSBK racing machines are likely no where near their terminal velocity on the road circuits
If they are "no where near" the top of there engine range they need to get new tech's in there pits. If they are that far off in there gearing than they have an idiot on there team, because that guy isnt listening to the rider when he says he needs more or less gear. Remember there's a trans and numerous sprockets atached to that 240 hp motor
I agree, it is tough to imagine, but the laws of physics don't suffer us fools
The laws of physics require that all the variables be state and known, what is the number you are using in reguards to the drag produced by any of the bikes you pumped into that equation, and how did you come to that number
IE how much drag is produced by Bayliss's ducati, and where did you get it, or how about Corsers gsxr 1000
How about this, type out the equation, and let me see it, granted i will not understand it, but one of the physics teaches hear at school can explain it
R |
Davegess
| | Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 01:14 pm: |
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World Superbike rule bikes were exceeding 200 mpn 10 years ago at the Northwest 200. I think Robert Dunlop on a Ducati was the first to do it. Don't know how much hp that takes but it is a bunch. |
Firemanjim
| | Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 04:06 pm: |
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Ok,Court,I'm available.Have it at Bub's, we can do a couple of classes.The AMA current record for MPS 1350 PG is 155 and the fuel class record is open.I would be happy to provide Buell with a couple of records.And if they want to go for an FIM World record the current record looks to be about 190+.
Serious as a heart attack---
If you need more time I am off through sept. and can be at WOS, SCTA record for MPS 1350 PG is 172.479, the APS 1350 PG record is 164.044.
And if it has to run "A" class the AMA records are both open.Happy to provide details to pass tech inspection.
(Message edited by firemanjim on August 27, 2006) |
Teddagreek
| | Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 07:48 pm: |
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What is the whole point of this company? Do they have a goal of mass production.. Make a bike that can win races.
100K... |
Oldog
| | Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 11:00 pm: |
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Mr Canfield, sir I believe that sounds like a team Elves mission! |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 12:33 am: |
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Jose,
Mladin is lying out his a**, per instructions from the factory. Factory backed Suzuki AMA Superstock bikes are making over 200 RWHP. Really. The WSB Hondas are making 240RWHP, and are getting smoked. |
Court
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 05:57 am: |
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>>>Mr Canfield, sir I believe that sounds like a team Elves mission!
Man . . . I wake up this morning and judging from the e-mail, apparently you are right. I expected some interest . . . but we may be on to something here. |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 07:33 am: |
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Hey anonymouse, is Ducati in on this conspiracy too? How'd they get Domenicali to lie too with the same HP number?
On Ducati's own website they only claim "194" HP for the 999F06 World Superbike.
Is everybody except EFB in on this conspiracy? I doubt it.
(Message edited by José_quiñones on August 28, 2006) |
Djkaplan
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 07:35 am: |
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"The idea of eliminating flywheel gyro effect on the bike's handling is intriguing."
Everything old is new again. Bombardier made a 250 with counter-rotating crank shafts (one ahead of the other) in the early 80's for the Canadian motorcycle company Can Am. I believe they were only raced in the US for short time before Can Am went out of the motorcycle business. It was an interesting foray into roadracing for a company noted for offroad bikes. |
Jscott
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 09:24 am: |
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The Canadian equivalent (Canadian SuperBikes)of our SuperStock must dyno-post race under 180hp. |
CJXB
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 10:01 am: |
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Well I don't have a hat or naked chicks. I'm feeling like a loser here.
I don't think Dora ever said the chicks who might show up will be naked, hmmmm !??
Not yet D. If they do, I'm blaming it on Greg.
You guys crack me up !! 
Remember it's good to want chicks involved, but simply showing up naked doesn't make it so !!  |
Jscott
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 10:02 am: |
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Technical Specifications of the 2005 MotoGP bikes:
http://www.sportnetwork.net/main/s180/st91553.htm
Only the RC211V is listed in the 240hp range. |
Jscott
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 10:05 am: |
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Honda confirms the 240hp number (of the RC211V that is):
http://world.honda.com/motorcycle-technology/hesd/p3.html
(Message edited by JScott on August 28, 2006) |
Jscott
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 10:08 am: |
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Back to the topic of MotoCzysz, I believe according to last months RoadRacingWorld article (excellent by the way) the hope is to be able to get a wildcard entry into a MotoGP race this year and then focus on SupeBike racing after that. |
Bigdaddy
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 10:47 am: |
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CJ,
If I'm confused it's not surprising 
Blake can blame me all he likes, but there better be some,,,,,,,,I better get a hat!
G2 |
Jscott
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 01:12 pm: |
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"What do you see in the future direction of Superbike?
MM: The current 1000cc Superbike is an excellent platform. I think they will always have a platform, as they are different to GP bikes. Horsepower figures are not that different between them. The current Superbikes are putting out well over 205hp, while the lead MotoGP machines are around 235 to 240hp.
"
http://www.suzuki-racing.com/2004%20archive/team_news.asp?ORIG=HOME&STY_ID=1332
...still looking for the 240hp SuperBike
Sounds like someone is exaggerating. |
Oldog
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 01:33 pm: |
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"but we may be on to something here."
Where do we send the HAND Written Letters?
and to whom?
"Erik are you out there?"
This is the bunch [ KUDOS MADDUCK ] that got Ferris a Uly,
lets get FMJ/Team Elves, a XBRR based -"LSR" -- THUNDER BOLT 3 --
GO BUELL! |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 03:59 pm: |
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How naive is it to imagine that the factories or their representatives would publish actual engine performance numbers for their racing machines. First rule in competitive race tech, never show your hand to the competition.
Of course even an honest dyno report for a racing machine would be inaccurate. At 200 mph, RAM air intakes can add another 4.8%, something around 10 SAE HP for a superbike. So a bike that dynos at 225 SAE RWHP would make darn close to 240 rwhp when running at 200 mph+.
Testing on an inertial dyno that gets spun up fairly quickly, within 6 seconds or so, will result in the reported HP being lower compared to more steady state conditions. Some is lost to spinning up the internals of the engine (flywheel) and transmission and the rear wheel. The inertial dyno cannot account or correct for those internal inertial losses. They can be significant. More so for lower gear runs and for higher powered motorcycles. |
Jscott
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 04:18 pm: |
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I'm sure they are lying about it, but Ten Kate Honda (the WSBK guys) claim 214 hp at the rear wheel.
http://www.tenkateracing.com/ |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 08:18 pm: |
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Yeah, whey they fart going down the straight they pick up another 10 horsepower too!
Ducati has no reason to lie, they know what they are up against and what they can do, which is why they want the extra 200cc's of displacement. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 08:57 pm: |
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Nope, Jscott, someone has seen actual factory bikes on a Dynojet, and seen the readings. However, if you would rather believe what the manufacturers are saying, that's cool. JQ, I don't know if EFB (Buell?)is in on any conspiracy or not; what horsepower do they post? |
Ctyxrnr
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 09:44 pm: |
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"One importance concept of the RC211V, which dominates the Grand-Prix fields with its amazing performance of over 240 horsepower and 330km/h top speed from the feather weight of 145kg, is “rider-friendly & easy-to-control for any rider”.
Seems people are not reading the text properly!
anyways i hope the MotoCzysz does what it is designed to do, WIN Races!!
AMERICAN BUILT!!!!! |
Oldog
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 10:56 pm: |
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How naive is it to imagine that the factories or their representatives would publish actual engine performance numbers for their racing machines. First rule in competitive race tech, never show your hand to the competition.
never give out good information, how about misinformation, get them off balance.
Get them trying to beat a few more ponies out of it,
Me I root for Ducati just because the Italian upstart, likely makes less than the japanese spend just on racing.
I wonder what the XBRR can do on salt,
when set up for it.......
}} |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 11:20 pm: |
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"Yeah, whey they fart going down the straight they pick up another 10 horsepower too!"
Only if they had bean and cheese burritos for breakfast, with extra hot sauce!
Ducati has no reason to lie, they know what they are up against and what they can do, which is why they want the extra 200cc's of displacement."
No reason? Did you know that the word "gullible" is not in the dictionary?!
(Message edited by Blake on August 28, 2006) |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 11:26 pm: |
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"The current plan is to ask the AMA to let the MotoCzysz to take the "VR1000 mulligan" and let it race in AMA Superbike after only building 50 bikes, assuming both the AMA rules group and MotoCzysz are still around by then. They target 2008 to being racing in the AMA."
Cause Mr. Czysz has been such a long term and ardent supporter and benefactor of AMA racing for over half a century, you know, like Harley-Davidson had at the time they fielded the VR. And that's not to mention the millions of MotoCzysz motorcycles running around all over the world generating all kinds of moto-enthusiasm? Oops, no, again that would have been Harley-Davidson. My bad.
I wish the Czysz team all the luck and good fortune in the world. It would be wonderful to see another American Sport bike racing in the AMA national series. So far all I've seen are a lot of promises. Last year they said they'd be racing MotoGP in 2006.
(Message edited by Blake on August 28, 2006) |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 11:33 pm: |
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Hey! We have some facts! Thank you Ctyxrunr!
over 240 horsepower and 330km/h top speed
So that's over 240 HP with a top speed of 330 KPH (205 MPH).
Tell me again how a bike with 194 HP is going to break 200 MPH? Physics, it matters. |
Oldog
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 11:49 pm: |
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I bet that they wind up in the hands of a few wealthy collectors, race them not likely...
I hope that Buell will continue to strive to build a better power plant and field it
IMO the XBRR is an amazing piece of work.
perhaps if they ( sanctioning bodys) looked at weight and actual measured HP at the rear wheel then it would get real interesting,
The Chech GP at Burno,
Capirossi checks out and leaves Rossi and Pedrosa to duke it out,
the down on power ducatis wobble their way to a win,
My $.02 the Moto-Sieze may have an edge if the rotating parts torque effects are as bad as stated by MC, ( and they will be promptly banned )
Me I think "Scotty" summed it up best
"The more you over complicate the plumbing the easier it is to stop up the drain"
that motor is some darn complicated plumbing. |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 12:37 am: |
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The GP Ducs are't the ones reportedly down on power. In fact not even the WSBK Ducs are reportedly much down on power, just the AMA Superbike rules Ducs is all. |
Grndskpr
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 07:55 am: |
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So that's over 240 HP with a top speed of 330 KPH (205 MPH).
Cool cool glad we agree
You agree in the post above that a moto gp bike put down that kind of HP, i said it 2 pages back, so we are now both on the same page
I still say, no superbike is going to make 240hp, moto gp yes(i hate repeating myself) superbike, superstock even fx bikes, dont do it, just moto gp
Just think, this debate could have been over 2 pages ago if you would just take the time to read
oh well
Tell me again how a bike with 194 HP is going to break 200 MPH? Physics, it matters.
I will repeate once again, give me the equation, and the variables you used listing each one, and where you got it, i will than ttake it to one of the physics teachers, have him explain it, and see what we come up with
fair?
R |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 08:27 am: |
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quote:Tell me again how a bike with 194 HP is going to break 200 MPH? Physics, it matters.
Your either confused yourself or trying to confuse people following this thread by mixing World Superbike horsepower with MotoGp trap speeds.
Find me a Ducati World Superbike trap speeds of over 200 mph. What I have FOUND does not support that conclusion.
quote:In fact not even the WSBK Ducs are reportedly much down on power, just the AMA Superbike rules Ducs is all.
I'll retype it gain cause you can't or won't read it yourself:
Claudio Domenicali, CEO of Ducati Corse (the factory race shop), talking about why they want 1200cc VTwins for Superbike racing.
quote:Many teams talk about their four-cylinder engines being in the range of 215 horsepower, and even those that are not that high are in the 210 range, and this gives 15 horsepower more than our current bike....
He's talking about their World Superbike 999F06, which they themselves claim makes "only" 194 HP
If being down 15 hp is not "much" then stop complaining when because the 150 HP RR (what they claim, maybe it really makes 15% more and they are sandbagging like Suzuki is being accused of doing) is down on HP compared to the factory FX bikes.
MotoGp bikes make 240+ HP, nobody is arguing that, that's been documented in the racing press with people putting their names on the line.
Still looking for documented, quoted to a name, proof that a "World Superbike" makes 240 HP.... |
Jscott
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 09:00 am: |
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"Still looking for documented, quoted to a name, proof that a "World Superbike" makes 240 HP...."
Someone that "Anonymous" knows (is that two degrees of anonymity?) looked over someones shoulder while dynoing Factory WSBK Hondas - sheesh, isn't that good enough for you? |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 09:01 am: |
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From World Superbike's Official Website
quote:What technical differences are there between a Superbike and MotoGP bike?
The World Superbike Championship is the ultimate competition for motorcycles derived from standard production models. The frame cannot be modified. Teams are free only to modify the suspensions, brakes, swingarm, and the diameter and size of the wheels. Superbike racing motorcycles must also maintain the same profile as their roadgoing counterparts.
MotoGP racing on the other hand is reserved for propotype machines that bear no resemblance at all to production machines. Maximum permitted engine displacement for MotoGP is 990 cc, but the only other restrictions are on weight, which is determined by the number of cylinders, and fuel tank capacity, which has been limited to 22 litres since 2005. There are no rules governing the chassis or other components. Team mechanics can even make technical changes between one race and the next. In Superbike, before you can change a bike’s configuration (for example the number of cylinders in the engine) the manufacturer must first homologate a new model and manufacture the required number of roadgoing machines. Even the tyres are prototypes in MotoGP, whereas in Superbike, since 2004, a single supplier regime has been enforced and all riders are equipped with the same tyres.
MotoGP bikes develop around 230 horsepower and reach speeds of nearly 350 km/h, while superbikes develop 210 horsepower and reach 320 km/h.Participation in MotoGP places enormous financial demands on manufacturers, because designers and mechanics are permitted to use such extremely sophisticated technology. The changes made to Superbike rules in 2004, on the other hand, dramatically reduced participation costs. The Honda CBR-RR with which Chris Vermuelen nearly won the 2004 championship cost only 60,000 Euros. Even tyre costs are controlled, at 45,000 Euros per season (covering all 12 races and winter testing). Superbike is showing the way forward for motorcycle racing in the future: reduced costs, fantastic spectator value, and a top level challenge between the world’s best motorcycle manufacturers.
(Message edited by José_quiñones on August 29, 2006) |
Firemanjim
| | Posted on Friday, September 01, 2006 - 11:50 am: |
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Still waiting for my XBRR ride?? |
Bigdaddy
| | Posted on Friday, September 01, 2006 - 01:14 pm: |
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FMJ,
I tried
G2 |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, September 03, 2006 - 01:38 am: |
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If you deliver it,... FMJ will ride. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Monday, September 04, 2006 - 04:11 am: |
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Ian Lougher's Honda CBR1000RR Fireblade that competed in this years North West 200, and came home 4th in this years Senior TT lapping at 128.2mph, making him the fourth fastest TT rider in history, pulled 202rwhp on the dyno the day before the Blade was shipped to the Island.
There are photos of this CBR engine stripped for inspection just after the Senior, published in the September edition of Performance Bike. The 202rwhp figure is quoted by Stuart Bland team co-ordinator for Stobart Honda who run Lougher.
The 2005 Stobart Honda CBR1000RR ridden by Michael Rutter at the NW 200 the same year hit 201mph. That was said to be the first time ever a bike had hit 200mph at the NW.
The motors for the above mentioned were put together by Paul Bird Racing Team and are said to be similar to the motors run in the BSB series where they also campaign.
Rocket |
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