| Author | Message | ||
     Darthane |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Anyone driving a Suburban, Tahoe, Expedition, H2 or Avalanche should have to pay double for their gas. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This is exactly the kind of uninformed, idiotic, fly-off-the-handle idea I've come to expect from most 'conservationists', who, by the way, I tend to hold in the same contempt you seem to have for the 'general public'. They already pay double if not triple or quadruple for their gas, between lower gas mileage and bigger gas tanks. ...does it ever occur to people like you that there are legitimate reasons for owning a 'non-efficient' vehicle? You yourself have one! | ||
| Daves |
Weren't they thinking of taxing electric cars more since they wouldn't be paying as much gas tax? I do not think that is fair either. No more fair than charging me double for the gas I put in my truck. But what do I know, I am an asshat for driving vehicles that do what I need them to do and that I like. | ||
| Ryker77 |
Not at all Daves. At least it sounds like you use your cars. I'll take a hit myself. OR at least the wife. We sold a 45mpg Jetta for a 18mpg Benz SUV!! Only two person family. Never will take the AWD thing off road. But with gas prices soo high we got a sticker price 48,000 SUV with 10k miles on it for less than half the sticker price.!! Don't own a boat or any type of trailer. Pure waste. These are the people that are wasting the fuel. But my little 42mpg Golf will be raking up the miles as the $$$$ benz is a pretty driveway item. Doesn't get driven much. Or not much different than another family member who drives a Z71 and works at wal-mart. Next time your at Wal-Mart drive by the employee parking. I did this once when we were talking about MPG on this board. 90% of the cars driven to WalMart were less than 25mpg. So justiyfy that? | ||
| Bomber |
Daves brought up a really important concept (other than freedom of choice, which I thought was a given . . . .) some years ago, California was on the verge of passing (or perhaps actually passed) a law requiring X% of the cars sold in that state to be "non-poluting," defined by the state as electric powered. Being smart people, who are interested in technology, you've likely already come tot he realization that electric CARS don't poluute, and, therefor, seem a good idea, creating the electricy to power the cars DOES cause more pollution -- all you've done is movce the mess upstream . . . . also, the energy needed to produce a new Civic for DaveS likely outstrips the energy saved by DaveS driving the civic for quite some time (would be interesting to see the stats, wouldn't it?) the lesson to be leared from this, I believe, is to take a systems approach to the problem, rather than looking at one point on the curve and deciding to "cure" that problem -- generally, all you do is move the problem somewhere else. | ||
| Daves |
Like I'd ever drive a Civic! Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahh | ||
| Brucelee |
The interesting thing to me are all the advocates for having the government add to the tax on gasoline to deal with the INCREASE in gas prices. Well, that is quite logical! Lets fight rising prices by increasing them artificially to a new, higher level! If you like that logic, well have I got a ........... to sell you. | ||
| Bomber |
cmon, Daves, you KNOW you want to ;-} | ||
| Ryker77 |
If higher taxes are added to allready higher fuel prices. Social change will be forced. People will see its cheaper to live closer to work or drive smarter choices in cars. Lots of social changes would take place. Whats unknown is are this good or bad changes? What is known is that we CAN'T stay on the current 20mpg craze. | ||
| Brucelee |
"If higher taxes are added to allready higher fuel prices. Social change will be forced." Yes, and you know how well forced change works. One can only look at how well it worked within the Soviet empire for oh, say 80 years or so. "People will see its cheaper to live closer to work or drive smarter choices in cars. Lots of social changes would take place. " Yes, they would and according to YOUR plan, this would all be really good. So, in that spirit, I want to force YOU to stop using airplanes to tow gliders up into the air for pure sport. I see this as an area where we could REALLY raise taxes, air plane fuel. Who do you think you are to be "wasting" our precious fuel like this? "Whats unknown is are this good or bad changes? What is known is that we CAN'T stay on the current 20mpg craze." Well, actually we can stay at 20 MPG if the vast majority of drivers are fine about paying more to drive around. That is the great thing about capitalism. One gets to decide how they will spend their own money. More on gas, less on glider lessons. Freedom, try some! BTW-the known oil reserves in the world today are about the same as we knew about back during the first "energy crisis." Knowledge, try some! | ||
| Firemanjim |
Acid is Illegal????  | ||
| Ryker77 |
"Well, actually we can stay at 20 MPG if the vast majority of drivers are fine about paying more to drive around. " mmmm at some point we will run out of refining capacity since no new refinerys have been built or scheduled to be built. At some point we will be using more fuel at a faster rate than we can get it from the ground. At some point we will begin to run out of oil. At some point things like pipeline rust, hurricanes and middle east turmoil will DECREASE the fuel supply and the ever increasing fuel DEMAND will only increase. So being able to pay for 20mpg is one simple minded point. BTW the feds allready control things (feedom) such as pilot license, FAA, seat belts, EPA, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc----- Whats soo wrong about wanting to see an increase in MPG from what it was 20 YEARS AGO! | ||
| Diablobrian |
WIth the limitations of the California power grid (remember the rolling blackouts?) an electric car would be putting more strain on a system already at it's limit. Besides that battery technology is still not at a point where there is enough juice to get most people's errands done without a 6 hour or so re-charge before coming home. When you add the fact that a lot of our electrical production still comes from plants that burn polluting fuels, you are just moving the polution to somone elses neighborhood. Isn't that nice and socially responsible?  The hydrogen fueled cars have the issue of getting hydrogen loose from the oxygen. It takes as much energy to break them apart as you get by burning the hydrogen, so that's another losing game.  Biodiesel is a good idea, but there isn't enough of the used grease to go around in the urban areas where it is needed most. Besides, The state and federal government don't get the taxes off of the fuel (or vegetable oil on sale) that they need to loot in order to fund their pet projects and, every once in a while, road repairs.  E85 is a sham. 25% less fuel economy means you burn that much more fuel. Bad idea.  The "Alternative Fuel Vehicles" are not ready for prime time yet. In the mean time give us higher efficiency vehicles that will still get the job done. Whether it's getting a cord of wood in from a muddy field, or carrying a bunch of boy scouts and their gear to a camp-out, or pulling a 22ft trailer full of motorcycles. But don't call us Assh0les for using the vehicles that do those jobs.  | ||
| Bomber |
Ryker -- nuthin wrong with wishing for better fuel economy -- nothing at all me, I don't want the feds any further into my life than they already are -- they aren't smart enough to make those kind of decisions (the rule about intelligence falling in direct proportion of the size of the group, and all that) heck, if I don't trust YOU to make decisions for me (nothing person, yunnerstan? there are only 2 or three people I so trust), why would I trust the gubmint? Jim -- sadly, yes, unless you put it in your battery, in which case the hydrogen fumes are colored nicely -- a featuer AND a benefit | ||
| Ryker77 |
Biodiesel is a good idea, but there isn't enough of the used grease to go around in the urban areas where it is needed most. Besides, The state and federal government don't get the taxes off of the fuel (or vegetable oil on sale) that they need to loot in order You are confusing BioD with WVO. Very different. BioD can be and is made from soybeans, cottenseed oil, or poultry fat. BioDiesel is very common now days. http://www.biodiesel.org/buyingbiodiesel/retailfuelingsites/ You'll notice that there are lots of BioD in your state. | ||
| Skyguy |
I don't think most people have a problem with the people that have big gas hungry vehicles that are used for a purpose. No one expects anyone to pull a trailer with a Yugo. My issue is with the number of gas guzzelers I see being used to commute. Most often with one person driving. This is what I base part of my contempt for most people on. If ya got an extra $10,000 to lift your 4x4, add a rack of Fox shocks and giant tires and then use that vehicle to commute any kind of distance you are IMHO part of the problem. That 10,000 dollars would be better spent on a vehicle that does not go through gas like water. Sadly here in SoCal I see way to many giant trucks on the road not being used for any purpose other than looking cool. | ||
| Brucelee |
"mmmm at some point we will run out of refining capacity since no new refinerys have been built or scheduled to be built." Actually, you are factually incorrect as more refineries are in process right now. Higher prices for gas make it profitable to build more capacity. BTW-You can thank your tree hugging friends for trying to block every new refinery, power plant etc.etc. Supply and Demand, no? No supply, price increases. Thanks Sierra Club! "At some point we will be using more fuel at a faster rate than we can get it from the ground. " Yes, especially if every energy initiative that is presented is blocked, delayed or otherwise stopped. "At some point we will begin to run out of oil." No, not if we are allowed to go get it. Or, in the case of syn fuels, make it from coal. "At some point things like pipeline rust, hurricanes and middle east turmoil will DECREASE the fuel supply and the ever increasing fuel DEMAND will only increase." No, as price increase, folks change their ways. This is already happening as large SUVs sit on dealer lots, and smaller cars sell. In fact, 7 of the top 10 fastest selling cars in the USA are very small cars with MPG well over 35MPG. "So being able to pay for 20mpg is one simple minded point." Thanks for the slap. However, I pointed out that we could choose that route, not that we would. I for one, do NOT hold the majority of Americans in contempt. You do. "BTW the feds allready control things (feedom) such as pilot license, FAA, seat belts, EPA, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc----- Whats soo wrong about wanting to see an increase in MPG from what it was 20 YEARS AGO" Yes, the feds control lots of things and frankly, in most cases, there is no argument that they do this particularly well. You want to give them more money and control, I do not. You DO see the distinction, don't you? | ||
| Brucelee |
"My issue is with the number of gas guzzelers I see being used to commute. Most often with one person driving. This is what I base part of my contempt for most people on." You keep avoiding my question about your use of fuel in the plane that takes you up to use your glider for no functional reason other than you enjoy it. How wasteful is that???? And then there is your 12 MPG truck. So, how can you hold the SUV Mom in contempt and not yourself? I guess some of us are created more equal than others. Man, you need to take a logic course. | ||
| Court |
>>>Acid is Illegal???? Far out! Being in the power plant building business I just want to hug folks. I recall times in this business we had to BEG for work. Power plants got cancelled but ya'll kept pluggin in those laptops and plasma TV's. Now electricians are making somewhere on the order of $150,000 a year and in order to play "catch up" we worked 7 days a week, 18 hours a day on the last 500MW combined cycle unit. The labor shortage in America (See Engineering News-Record editorial the week before last) is so severe that there's nobody left. I've had offers I thought were jokes they were so ridiculous the last two weeks, from Southern California and Wisconsin. Both are having desperate needs for new power lines, $2,000,000,000 in the case of Southern Cal Ed, and they need them now. The last call I got, from AeroTek staffing was great...."there are no folks available and Bechtel is considering bringing Iraqis’ who worked on the power grid around Baghdad to come to LA and build a 345kV line...would you be interested in project management and training". Yeah...right. To those of you at work with you air conditioners running at home...a big THANK YOU!  | ||
| Brucelee |
"To those of you at work with you air conditioners running at home...a big THANK YOU" It is all about choices. Ain't capitalism grand? | ||
| Ryker77 |
Actually according to autoweb the top 10 most popular disagree with your facts. Don't forget that many cars sold have the "option" of better MPG ie smaller engines. But most of the time they are sold with larger engines. Civic can be bought with 50, 40 or 30mpg Highway options. Also another EPA MPG problem. Most cars do NOT get the rated MPG. Two factors EPA high test speeds are much lower and controlled driver. Plus the majorty of miles driven takes place on commutes ie peak traffic time. So even though your on a Highway stop n go traffic is more like city MPG. I've lived in country backwoods MO, Mountains GA, City Atlanta and traveled the world. So my views are pretty broad. Had I only lived in backwoods MO for my whole like I might think like some of you'll. | ||
| Ryker77 |
http://www.forbes.com/lifestyle/vehicles/2004/08/02/cx_dl_0802feat.html 2004, the F-Series (TRUCK) had been America's top-selling automobile for 22 consecutive years "America's three best-selling vehicles are pickups, which may be due to the fact that American automakers best understand their country's love of size and cargo utility. When Toyota Motor (nyse: TM - news - people ) drove engineers around the parking lot at a Dallas Cowboys football game in order to study the vehicular preferences of average Americans, the Japanese--who live in a country where things are small, especially the roads--were stunned at how large the pickups in the lot were, and how many of them they saw. "These are for private use?" they asked in awe. " _______ http://www.autohopper.com/featured/topsellers.asp top selling used cars in 2006.. 1. FORD F150 2. CHEVROLET CORVETTE 3. CHEVROLET SILVERADO 1500 4. FORD EXPLORER 5. DODGE RAM 1500 6. FORD F250 7. FORD MUSTANG 8. JEEP GRAND CHEROKEE 9. HONDA ACCORD 10. CHEVROLET TAHOE 11. FORD EXPEDITION 12. HONDA CIVIC 13. CHEVROLET SUBURBAN 1500 14. FORD MUSTANG GT 15. FORD F350 16. CADILLAC DEVILLE 17. DODGE DAKOTA 18. JEEP WRANGLER 19. FORD RANGER 20. GMC YUKON 21. VOLKSWAGEN JETTA 22. CHEVROLET BLAZER 23. CHEVROLET SILVERADO 2500 24. DODGE DURANGO 25. TOYOTA 4RUNNER Only 2 in the above list has the ability to get above 30mpg. maybe the accord if driven slow. | ||
| Brucelee |
"In fact, 7 of the top 10 fastest selling cars in the USA are very small cars with MPG well over 35MPG"-- C'mon guys, you have to what I wrote. According to the WSJ today, the FASTEST selling cars RIGHT NOW consist of mostly small cars, Civics, Scions, etc.Fastest selling means that they spend literally days on the dealer lot before they are sold. SUVS are taking 6 months to sell. I a sep. article, GM and Ford are having to steeply discount their SUVs and Trucks to keep them moving. GM is also shutting down more lines that make large SUVs. The point is, folks are already reacting to higher prices. On a sep note, the sale of scooters are through the roof and VESPA is putting on more production. My point was not that this is already a done deal, just that many folks are already changing their habits. | ||
| Ryker77 |
U.S. Motor Gasoline Consumption 9,125,000 barrels/day (383.3million gallons/day) Share of US Oil Consumption for Transportation (2004) 67% Number of U.S. Operable Petroleum Refineries (2004) 148 Total World Oil Supply 84,339,000 barrels/day Total World Petroleum Consumption 83,970,000 barrels/day Top U.S. Crude Oil Supplier Canada - 1,643,000 barrels/day To meet continued growth in demand, Shore estimates the U.S. would have to boost refining capacity by another 250,000 barrels a day — every year. But it’s not clear just how much further U.S. refiners can stretch production. The best guess is that NO new refiniers will be build before 2010. | ||
| Brucelee |
"Only 2 in the above list has the ability to get above 30mpg. maybe the accord if driven slow" Again, you don't read what I wrote. My point consistently has been there are tons of fuel efficient cars, not that everyone is buying them. But of course, more folks are. Freedom is wonderful! | ||
| Pammy |
I live 3.9 miles from work. I drive a land barge.(I need it) I would reckon that I still use less than half of the gas of those folks who want to live in the country and work in the city and drive tiny little gas effecient cars. So who is the MOST wasteful? Everythings relative, ya know... When I need to drive up to the Atlanta area...I ride my bike. So go ahead and judge away. You never know why someone drives what they do. | ||
| Swampy |
I had a 89 Jetta Diesel with 325,000 miles on it, 45+MPG at 70MPH with the air on, but the wife wouldn't drive it any more so I sold it to a neighbor lady that was going to use it for K9 training, I should have sold the wife. Don't let me start......the bike trip starts Monday........ | ||
| Daves |
They sold more Corvettes than Chevy pickups? I don't think that is correct? | ||
| Ryker77 |
sold more used-- ie people bought a vette then relised it was a pain in the arse to get in and ouf of or the high payments and sold it. Used market shows two things -- what people don't like and what there are the most off. Right now is shows that there are alot of SUVs on the road with the majoirty of owners trying to offload them. Social change is taking place slowly. | ||
| Ryker77 |
Pammy is very correct. Its not the MPG the car gets but the MPG you use. Those factors play a role when I bought my car and when I choose the location of my house purchase. For about 6 months I was able to go on 4 tanks of fuel. Lived and worked, so close that my 45mpg went a long ways. For example 4 bikers in a group burns 1 gallon of fuel per 10 miles. So those 4 riders get 10mpg. Put them in one Hummer and its the same. You must pay to play. My wife has less money to spend on new clothing becuase she wants an SUV. | ||
| Skyguy |
Brucelee, I DONT USE A PLANE!! I FOOT LAUNCH MY PARAGLIDERS AND HANGLIDERS FROM A MOUNTAIN TOP AND MOST OFTEN LAND THERE AS WELL. NINE OUT of TEN FLIGHTS REQUIRE LESS THAN 50 CENTS OF GASOLINE AS I LIVE TWO BLOCKS FROM LAUNCH. I DO NOT NEED A TOW PLANE!!! Sorry for yelling but you missed it when I said that earlier. My 12 mpg truck is used to shuttle as many as nine other people up a mountain to fly. This is called car pooling and even at 12mpg it is better than as many as nine other vehicles driving up the mountain. I do not drive it for anything other than running parts on my bike and work. Part of my work includes playing shuttle driver to pilots. You are making assumptions regarding my ethics as a conservationist without knowing me at all. I promise that I live a lower impact life than most people. In fact I barely come up with one bag of trash a week. Not one can of trash, one bag of trash. I buy nothing I do not need and look at my one or two romps a week on the bike as something I should (but can not) do without. I am not the perfect conservationist but I try. |
