| Author | Message | ||
     Rocketman |
Jenson Button wins for the first time in F1 at the Hungarian GP. Today an Englishman is on top, broke his duck, and surely now the flood gates are open for more wins from the young charging and very experienced Englishman. Alonso's title lead looked likely to fall after his late retirement from drive shaft failure. Schumacher only 11 points behind in the title race with 5 GP's to the end of the season, looked to be on course for closing in on Alonso's championship lead when in 3rd place with six laps remaining. Choosing to stay out on well worn intermediate tyres on a dry lined track and struggling to keep a fast closing De la Rosa behind, Schumacher was passed at the start of the chicane. Forced wide by a passing De la Rosa and eventually cutting across and missing the last section of the chicane to end up back in front, Schumacher had taken a clear advantage from cutting the corner. Realising his mistake he has to let the passing driver back in front, but Schumacher refused for the next full lap, eventually passed by De la Rosa at exactly the same spot two laps later. As if that wasn't enough, on the very next lap fellow German, Nick Heidfeld, passed Schumacher in exactly the same place only to be dealt an attempt at the same manoeuvre by Schumacher, except this time slight contact broke something on the front corner of the Ferrari, sending Schumacher into retirement. Schumacher, always a cheat, and a bad loser. What a prick. Rocket | ||
| Pwnzor |
Rocket, you sound pretty knowledgeable. Can you enlighten someone like myself about Schumacher's cheating? How does he cheat? When has he cheated? Is racing as corrupt as boxing? I'm not being sarcastic so don't take it that way, really. I'm unlike a lot of bikers in that I don't follow racing at all.  | ||
| Buellisti |
The cheat. . . cutting across and missing the last section of the chicane to end up back in front The driver can't take shortcuts. | ||
| Rocketman |
Remember back to 1994 when Senna went to Williams? Schumacher was in the Benetton Ford. Certain electronic driver aids from the previous season, including launch control, had been dropped according to new rules for the 94 season. The first three races saw Schumacher make blistering starts. Senna suspected Schumacher was still using launch control and was going to bring the matter up at a schedule driver safety meeting with the FIM (governing body) at Monaco. Sadly Senna, and Ratzenberger, were killed at San Marino two weeks before the Monaco meeting. The whole F1 world was in turmoil. Cars were redesigned to slow them and rules accordingly changed. Much bad press was focused at the sport as TV audiences dropped and the whole F1 future looked in some doubt. Sounds far fetched now doesn't it. Well, at the end of the 94 season the Benetton software was analyzed by a Liverpool company (I forget their name) who specialised in such covert electronic wizardry, in particular for the MoD (Ministry of Defence), and they found a program for launch control that was accessed by the driver (Schumacher) pressing the foot pedals and turning the steering wheel in a particular sequence on the start line. Though the findings were well documented at the time, nothing was done about it in the way of punishment. Benetton claimed they had never used the program, though it was found that no memory of its use was cleverly built into the program. Once used there would be no way of ever finding out. The rules though went even further, clearly stating that no such aids should be present anywhere, even in a situation where they could NOT be accessed. But it was deemed the sport was already in such free fall, any further actions in retrospect affecting the 94 championship results would not be well received by the public so Benetton and Schumacher went unpunished. It didn't matter in the end. The greatest loss to F1 was Senna. That also meant Schumacher never got to prove he could beat Senna fair and square to be the best of all time. That will elude him for ever. Schumacher's world titles were not won against the greats like Senna Prost Piquet and Mansell either. Had they have raced in the same era things would be very different in the record books today. There have been other incidents too involving Schumacher. His clashes with Villeneuve. His black flag incident at Silverstone where he refused to come in, and completed the race though disqualified. The past twelve years are full of Schumacher's cheating dominance. Rocket | ||
| Pwnzor |
OMG you guys aren't even talking about bikes at all. Shows how much I follow racing.  | ||
| Jackbequick |
This year at Monte Carlo Schumacker faked a loss of control and parked in a turn blocking the track. That forced a yellow flag just as time was running out on the qualification period. What Schumacher gained from that was that it protected his pole position and kept another car (or cars?) that were on a pace to qualify ahead of him from completing their last lap in time to do so. Driving hard to win is one thing, cheating is another. Schumacher is a scumbag, a worthless piece of crap! Jack | ||
| Hans |
Ha. And who doesn`t remember the accident, caused by Schumacher, who did an unexpected "brake test". And the lowering of the ground plate by just half an inch ? And the special gas, which was discovered by the smell from the exhaust? However: Schumacher is the best driver of all times, maybe with the exception of Ascari and Nuvolari: Both Italians, just as Ferrari. To influence the circumstances a little bit in a positive sense for someones own purposes, does fit in the Italian mentality to take care of details.  Hans | ||
| Rocketman |
Hans, come on. Everyone knows Senna remains the greatest modern era driver.  Rocket | ||
| Bigdaddy |
I got to watch Senna in '88 at Hockenheim and it was freaking awesome. I've also seen Schumacher at Hockenheim and I don't think you can make any comparison -- IMHO. That's based more on the changes within F1 which really started kicking in in about 1990. The driver skill portion was dramatically reduced as the technology evolved. Greatest ever? What about Fangio? 24 wins in 51 grand prix starts -- that's pretty freaking awesome. Clark, Stewart, Prost,,,so many greats. My personal all-time favorite is Niki Lauda. I got to see him in 1971 or 72. It was a long time ago and I was just a little guy, but I do know that it was before the Ferrari years and he was racing for March. Lots of great memories,,,thanks for the thread  G2 | ||
| Heads |
sir Jack Brabham.....thats the MAN | ||
| Regkittrelle |
While I'm with you re Schumacher, Rocket, I'm not quite ready to raise young Button to F1 icon just yet... not after 113 races and one win. | ||
| Jima4media |
95% of the time Schumacher races straight up without incident. Do others have as high of a percentage of clean racing? How about the results? After 7 years on top, Schumacher has proven he is the real deal. I would have liked to see Rossi race him however. | ||
| Skyguy |
All of the racers cheat whenever possible. They do things to the cars that they hope do not get noticed. I taught Toyota F-1 racings lead aerodynamics guy to fly paragliders. He told me some stories.......... | ||
| Pwnzor |
***BEWARE*** Opinion follows: Racing should be about who gets to the finish line first. Period. Engines, brakes, "cheating"... it's all good. Survival of the fastest, the meanest, the dirtiest, the BEST. Unfortunately it's NOT. Thus, nobody gets my ticket money. | ||
| Bomber |
Read Smokey Yunick -- racing is NOT entirely gentlemenly -- never has been | ||
| M1combat |
I don't believe there are any "rules" stating the placement of the car. The gentleman's agreement comes into play in that respect. Same thing with using the run-off area, yet everyone uses that without much thinking about it. They're "supposed" to keep 1/2 of the car on the inside of the white line but lately, with the paved run-off areas, they've been using just about every inch of pavement there. It's very noticeable at Monza (exit of the second chicane as I recall), Austria (after the hard right at the top of the hill), Australia (everywhere), Interlagos (short straight in S2) etc... | ||
| M1combat |
"Read Smokey Yunick -- racing is NOT entirely gentlemenly -- never has been" Exactly... All I'll say is that if you're racing bikes locally... Safety wire your key in the ignition if you still have one, if your filters are off your bike and you walk away from it cover the holes, Never leave oil open and/or unattended. I'm sure there's more. Some people a very "competitive". | ||
| Trac95ker |
F-1 is a multi million dollar industry. You better believe the teams and the drivers are going to get away with whatever they can. It's unfortunate but I won't quit watching. | ||
| Aldaytona |
I thought it was Hans Stuck, no?  | ||
| Kdan |
Villeneuve is the best damn Canadian F1 racer ever!  Sorry, S'all I got. I'm happy for the Button and his Honda. It's about time. And why does everyone think Ferrari cheats? Just cause they're Italian? Pretty racist if you ask me! | ||
| Rocketman |
I'm not quite ready to raise young Button to F1 icon just yet... not after 113 races and one win. I'm with you on that one Reg. For me, Mansell is the best modern era Englishman. Stewart is Scottish. Comparing Schumacher and Senna. Autosport did a pretty in depth study of the two drivers for the edition that celebrated Senna 10 years after his death. I don't recall, which is stupid of me, who they favoured most. I do remember Ron Dennis (as unbiased as possible) going with Senna, though others went with Schumacher. The racing world missed out big time, that's for sure. Incidentally, the Grand Prix Masters series comes to Silverstone later this month. My money's on Mansell winning again. Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
Big Papa, that's some F1 history you have under your belt. I've done Silverstone 88, Monza 97 and Monaco 94 and 02 Nowadays I've lost interest. Without seeing the likes of Senna and Mansell wheel to wheel at nearly 200mph watching on TV sends me to sleep. As for overtaking. What overtaking? Pit stop strategy is the worse thing ever in F1. That is not overtaking in any sense. Might as well call it an endurance race. Rocket | ||
| Blake |
Nigel rocks! | ||
| Bigdaddy |
Rocket, I couldn't agree more. Passing/overtaking doesn't happen. Pit strategy rules the day and it ruins the racing -- I don't need all you strategy guys raining on my parade either I miss the racing. G2 | ||
| Davegess |
F1 is too boring to even glance at these days. the cars are awesome, the drivers fantastic but they never actually RACE. My vote for the best ever would be Nuvolari, followed by Fangio then Clark with Moss tossed in for good measure. I got to read reprots of Moss and actually saw Clark in Indy cars, the frist win for a rear engined car at Milwaukee, and have only read stories about Fangio and Nuvolari but they are pretty good stories. Nouvolari's win a Nuremburg ring againest overwhelming odds and terrible pits work by his team is perhaps the greatest road racing victory of all time. Fangios winning of half the races he entered and five world championships in seven years at what would ne considered a ripe old age these days are also amazing, | ||
| Rocketman |
There's a pattern forming here as to who is the best, and it's to do with our ages. There's a surprise, lol. I remember reading a story about Fangio years ago when he was racing some sort of souped up taxi. I know this wasn't when he was a young man, and he told how it dawned on him not to grip the steering wheel so hard. He realised by touching the wheel almost with one finger from each hand, he claimed he had a much better feel of what the car was doing beneath him, and he became the greatest driver he was. If I'm not mistaken, Fangio won all his world titles when he was in his 40's. Amazing, and the stuff of legends. Rocket | ||
| Rr_eater |
Hey rocket, you might want to re-watch that little bit of video taken from another angle seen on speed late Monday night, dont remember the show, BUT... Mike was not just forced off the track(aggresive driving in questionable conditions) but if there is not at least the haze of a tire mark on that pod, Ill be mickey mouse. The closer in, though wide angle shot, clearly shows mikes car jolting at that very instant, and was as stated most likely impacted to some degree by De La Rosa's tire. In that case, the acceleration through the runoff area and out in front of DLR was waranted, and why he was not penalized immediately. I do agree though, when someone is flat out STORMING up behind you, because of your poor tire call, you should have just gotten out of the way. He was eating up WAY TOO much timer fight DLR, letting Heidfeld catch up even more. I would be hard pressed to say micheal is a cheater, as no one calls the King a cheater, Gordon a cheater, pemberton a cheater, they all just tried to outsmart the system, and many lost! I am willing to bet, that ANY of the questionable things Mike might be doing, are directed from higher above then the cockpit of the car. Think about it, who truely loses if a marquee is tarnished due to investigative finding? Driver, ehh, many have and survived just fine. But you tarnish a name, you might impact sales, impacting profit, impacting image. There are far more things to worry about then just getting caught. They all are cheating to some degree, look at renault, dynamic dampening, BULLCACA, it was a straight out violation of the rulebook with a moveable surface of any kind, and all they got was a "you will want to remove that prior to tech inspection" comment by a racing official at Hungary. Hmmmmm OH, and lets not talk about that now "excessively moving" front wing so vividly seen at hockenheim and Hungary, that surface moves considerably at speed, laying down in the airstream. All wings do, yes, but the rules say no movement elements, and that one clearly moves, though you cannot see other manufacturers nose wings doing it, so..... Everyone has shadey intentions when it comes to racing, looking for every advantage they can find. I am willing to bet though, in two equal cars, with everything identicle vice the driver, Mike might be very hard to beat. Watch him sometime, he does not just drive, he feels the car out, not abusing it like Alonso does. But eh, then without it, racing might be even more boring then it already can be at times!! Senna was removed WELL before his time, but I guarantee he and his lord are tearing it up on some celestial raceway somewhere, and I am betting on Senna!! Bruce | ||
| Rocketman |
Bruce, I thought the overhead shot showed the advantage into the corner was taken by De la Rossa. His nose cone was past halfway into Schumacher's car length, if I saw the situation correctly, which is I believe how it is judged. That means if there was contact after such on track positioning Schumacher turned in when he should have conceded the corner. I won't get to see the manoeuvre again I doubt, but you do raise an interesting point, making me want to view again. So the whole cheating thing I can live with when it comes down to which team did what, where and why. Team cheating is perhaps not so much cheating, but more them running close to the envelope, which we all seem to agree is possible from time to time, race to race even. I mean, have you seen what the F1 rule book is like word for word. Yeah I know I haven't either, but I am aware of the technical merit of such tomb. It's a minefield of technicalities and regulations mostly understood by engineers, aerodynamicists and lawyers is my understanding. What galls me is the on track tactics that I really can't stand Schumacher for. No one else cheats as blatantly or bullishly as Schumacher. He has for years got away with so much because of his greatness on the track. His qualifying 'brake test' at Monaco this year yet again proved what lengths he's prepared to go to to win. I much prefer a racer to be magnanimous in victory and defeat. Schumacher has never been either. And what's that clenched fist salute all about? Smacks of nationalism, not patriotism, to me. Rocket | ||
| Blake |
A racer is obliged to concede right-of-way if a competitor gets the nose of his car half past? I always understood the rule to be that the lead vehicle be given the right of way. I KNOW that is the general way of thinking in motorcycle racing, at least in the CMRA. | ||
| Rocketman |
A racer is obliged to concede right-of-way if a competitor gets the nose of his car half past? No not at all. Yes I was quite a bit misleading with my previous post. Soz. I believe the F1 interpretation be "if an incident were to occur the overtaking car takes precedence once the nose cone passes halfway along the car overtaken". That is to say, no car has to concede, but if an incident were to occur that would be the guideline for any disciplinary action brought about by enforcement of the rule book. Rocket | ||
| Hans |
Rocketman: I have seen Senna pushing a close competitor from the track. It was not a race incident: A plain, clean, murder attack. Being Senna, he did not land in jail. But Senna is off my best riders list. On top of my favorite list, and that is another list... I almost don`t dare to say it loudly..: Stirling Moss. Because the way his driving was reported, when they made only live radio reports from races. Thinking back, it gives me the chillies. He must have performed miracles with slower cars. Hans | ||
| Rocketman |
Hans, Senna's run in with Prost are well documented. Prost ran Senna into the corner at Adelaide, thus Prost took the world championship that season. The next season, same race track, Senna said he would take Prost out if the same scenario presented itself. It did, and Senna was true to his word. Murder is way way strong Hans. You should remember the day before Senna was killed, he was the only driver that went to the scene of Ratzenberger's fatal crash to understand the safety aspect for all other drivers. Senna was the leading protagonist in driver safety during his time. Totally focused in racing. Often misunderstood for his emotional outcries. His very strong faith and belief in God which he brought to his racing, Senna was never a cheat. He would only ever want to win fair and square. That's why when he saw Prost as gaining favour over him, not just at Adelaide - remember Senna's first race at Monaco where he beat Prost in the wet but the race was red flagged the lap after Senna past Prost into the lead, but the result stood from the previous lap giving Prost the win - Senna would speak his truth and put where he could what he considered to be justice well served. Cold maybe on some occasions, but boy he wasn't far wrong, if ever. Rocket | ||
| Blake |
I'm often misunderstood. | ||
| Hans |
Rocketman: Prost had more than once avoided a collision by giving way while Senna had aggressively plunked the nose of his car into the inside turn where there was no spare room to overtake. In 1989 it went the same in Suzuka. This time Prost gave no way, as he did not assume that Senna, who was too far behind, even would try to overtake. The cars became entangled. But Senna got a new nose cone and won the race. The incident did NOT cost Senna the championship. It was the disqualification because the illegal cutting off the chicane. The real nasty accident happened in 1990, also on the Suzuki track, when Prost took the lead after the start and Senna pushed Prost full throttle from the tarmac while he tried again to place his car where there was no room left for him. The fact that he planned that kind of an action is the bad thing. Senna was of course an highly talented and skillful driver. But too dangerous, as for himself, as for others. Hans | ||
| Rocketman |
I disagree with that analogy Hans, and yes it was Suzuka, not Adelaide. My mistake sorry. I always thought Prost was a bad loser, and not aggressive enough as a true world champ should be. Anyway, I don't want to argue with you over these guys. My friend was a huge Prost fan so I've beaten to death every Senna v Prost argument there is, lol. I'm often misunderstood too ! Rocket |
