| Author | Message | ||
     M1combat |
Exactly....  | ||
| Jima4media |
Of course, many other riders on other brands have finished well in FX this year using Pirelli tires, so it must be just the clutch. That's it then, the clutch and more practice. | ||
| Jscott |
Jim, you forgot about actually showing up to the race. That is a fairly important component of sucess as well.  Tires shouldn't be that big of an issue, Barney and May have been doing very well on the Pirelli's. | ||
| Jimidan |
Blake sez: "Then there are the tires. Dunlop rules AMA Racing. Tires are as important or more important as anything else on the bike." I think that use of the Pirelli tires is a plus. At Daytona, I talked with the Pirelli tire rep a lot since he was coming into the same infield stands that I was in to watch the Buells run. He claims that the failure of the Dunlops at speed was the primary reason that the 200 race went to FX rather than Superbikes. He had the whole scheme laid out with a Goodyear and NASCAR connection. Pretty interesting as a conspiracy theory really. We haven't heard much about the slipper clutch issue lately, have we? I did get a good look at the clutch that is being used in the XBRR with the built-in cush drive though...it is an ingenious design. I don't know how you would make it into a slipper though, having some knowledge of such things since my Ducati has a Buci on it. Actually, my Buell S2 has a slipper clutch too...its in my left hand. I just feather that sucker out while applying just enough throttle to match...yeah, I know that is old school in these days of traction control ignitions. jimidan | ||
| Court |
Snappy quasi-conclusions aside, I'm sure Buell has many lessons, some that will be thrilling, some heartbreakers, ahead of them. That, my friends, is the very nature of racing. I was there when the turbine car lost the $1.00 part in the Indy 500. But, and I admit I am old-fahsioned, there are a TON of us that are simply thrilled to see Buell Racing. Getting the support to develop the program and actually engineering the package and getting it on the track was huge. No one showed up, ran two races and dominated the series. I look for a bright future for Buell racing, and win, lose or draw, I'll be there cheering and laughing about when Henry's budget was less than $1,000 a year. Court | ||
| Glitch |
Why is it a bike that's not raced a full season hasn't been winning every race, or at least been on the podium for the major races? I'm not even going to add a smilie to that one. Honda really didn't want the XBRR to race (remember, they were the loudest) do you really think it was because the were scared of what the bike was going to do this year, or were they more intimidated as to what the bike was capable of in future races? | ||
| Blake |
Jim, That's a lot, certainly not a little. The factory bikes also have top of the line suspensions. | ||
| Blake |
From what I've seen the Pireli shod bikes have faded towards the end of the race compared to the winning Dunlop shod bikes. They are good, no doubt; I just don't think they are quite up to the performance level of the Dunlops yet. | ||
| M1combat |
I thought it was pretty much just plain old common knowledge that the Dunlops have pretty well dominated in the AMA... Maybe I'm just confused. | ||
| Jscott |
Dunlop does have a strangle hold on the AMA, but if you were a B to C level team would you prefer Dunlops leftovers or Pirelli's priority treatment? I think it is a wise decision for M4/Emgo, Buell, and other teams outside of true Factory support to team up with Pirelli, Michelin and Bridgestone. Pirelli tires have been showing some good results at most of the tracks this year. Jim is obviously fishing for what excuses will be offered in the event of a poor showing at Laguna. I do not believe tires will be an excuse. Let's not give any excuses. Buell will be there and will be giving their all, IF they come up short it will be because they lost to better teams. | ||
| Blake |
This topic has nothing to do with the outcome of the races at Laguna, just the report by RRW that the XBRR is a lot better than its results so far would indicate, that it braked better and handled better than Honda's FX CBR600RR in recent comparative testing by a professional road racer. | ||
| Jscott |
OK - So maybe this post should of ended after its 1st posting? Everyone return to their self righteous postings. The "Look who is using that "Highland" V-Twin motor" topic didn't have anything to do with Mach1 Mustangs or stacking order tolerances, but you participated in it's departure. I think my post is as relevant as any here. | ||
| M1combat |
I don't think he was jumping on you particularly Jscott... Get over yourself  . I think Blake was mostly just lamenting the fact that there are so many people out there that need to put the internet smack down on anything they feel the need to just because they know (think anyway) that it'll really get some folks riled up... Whatever . | ||
| Jscott |
Whatever - likewise  This place is getting seriously oversensitive and weird. I don't see how my post concerning tire options was out of the realm of this topic. (Message edited by JScott on July 11, 2006) (Message edited by JScott on July 11, 2006) | ||
| Diablobrian |
I agree with the priority of the treatment. At RA I had a blow out friday night and needed to get a new Diablo Corsa at the track. On the way to the tire vendors I saw the HUGE stacks of wheels/tires waiting to be done as we passed the Dunlop vendor. I was able to hand my Pirelli right over and they started right in on my wheel when I handed it over. It was done in minutes. I imagine that the Buell teams get great service from the Pirelli guys, and probably get more input into the new tire development than they would get from dunlop. Even considering H-D's leverage on Dunlop through their corporate purchases. | ||
| Jscott |
My thoughts exactly Diablobrian. | ||
| M1combat |
Makes sense... Especially sense it would be a very large and profitable jump for Pirelli to put their foot in the door with HD. Jscott - AGAIN - I don't think anyone was jumping on you personally... Get over yourself please  . Don't take things personally when they are, in all likelyhood, not meant personally. "This place" isn't getting over sensitive and anything... Thanks for giving me another "1" rating BTW ... makes me laugh every time . | ||
| Jima4media |
The RRW article by Chris Ulrich was interesting, but in no way did it say the XBRR was faster than the Honda CBR600RR. In fact, it wasn't a heads up test between the two bikes. One bike was ridden at Miller Motorsports Park in Utah, and one ridden at Blackhawk Farms in Wisconsin. It was the first time that Ulrich had ridden at Miller or Blackhawk. Neither bike was set up properly for Ulrich. But somehow people read into this that the Buell is faster than the Honda? | ||
| Diablobrian |
Never said it was a heads up. I only conveyed the impressions he had expressed in the article. Never said either one was judged faster either. He was able to tune the "tired" xbrr suspension to a point he liked, but felt the motor let it down. He did state in Bold type headlines on the front cover that the Buell is "Better than its results" and "Surprisingly good" He said, in comparison that: 1) the Buell "fit him" better than the Honda (p93) 2)Buell has substantially more torque than the Honda throughout the rev range (DUH!) but both engines work best in a 2500rpm range. 3) The Honda was not geared, or set up for the track where it was tested. 4) The Buell base chassis was better suited to C.U.'s style. More stable and better feedback (still p93) 5)the honda may have been able to be adapted to his style if the Honda guys would have allowed adjustments (p95) 6) "he Buell handled better in every part of the turn" and feedback "was easier to digest." (p95) 7) The Buell is "fully capable of turning competitive lap times" Take it at face value. Don't read anything into it, or out of it. It is a very positive review. The only real negatives were: 1) he felt the tail section was set a little too far forward 2) the stock spring rates were soft in his opinion 3) he questioned the "tired" motor but did state the rev limit had been raised costing motor life span in favor of more revs. | ||
| M1combat |
Ummm... Can you quote where someone said that the "RR" was "faster" than the tested CBR? I mostly saw someone stating that the RR was reported as being better on the brakes and felt good max lean to max lean... Perhaps you were referring to these? Blake - "Better brakes, better handling, better than the results. " Ulrich - "C.U. feels the chassis is brilliant on the XBRR, flicking from full left to full right with ease. " Brian - "The Buell was better at turning in every way" Blake - "WAY TO GO BUELL!!! You DESIGNED AND built a $30K FX racing machine that outhandles and outbrakes the $300,000+ FX machines of the big factories! WAY TO GO BUELL!!! " Well anyway... If you can find where someone claims that the XBRR is "faster" please quote it. Maybe one of these??? "Jeremy, being ever the extremely thoughtful and analytical professional, expounded further; he equated the ZTL-2 braking performance to being in his experience most akin to that of Moto-GP bikes and less like more conventional Superbike brakes that are less aggressive in nature. " Or this one??? "As Chris Ulrish also observes, all four professional racers/riders (Mike Cicotto, Steve Crevier, Jeremy McWilliams and yes even Don Canet) at TWS when I asked them how the brakes performed gave them a solid thumbs up. " | ||
| Jscott |
While your playing stenographer you forgot this one... "Asked how his XBRR worked up until it quit, McWilliams said its lack of slipper clutch caused the bike to back itself into corners, forcing him to brake earlier than he would have liked. He also said the bike was hard to 'flip-flop' through the esses and the turn nine chicane." (Message edited by JScott on July 11, 2006) | ||
| M1combat |
LOL . | ||
| Blake |
Jim, Did they conduct top speed test runs? Who said anything about being faster?  From what I saw at Daytona, the bikes seem fairly comparable in top speed capability. | ||
| Jimidan |
"3) he questioned the "tired" motor but did state the rev limit had been raised costing motor life span in favor of more revs." What the heck was Ulrich doing riding a bike with a tired motor and suspension? Couldn't someone freshen the dang thing up before he got on it. It ain't that hard...and he is pretty important. | ||
| Diablobrian |
There were 2 bikes to allow maximum on track time. One was a brand new "as it will be delivered" bike. The other was a veteran race bike. He liked the stiffer (different internals) suspension on the bike with the "tired motor". I suspect it was the bike the Vallejo team used because of the stiffer suspension. | ||
| Blake |
Chris isn't a small man. | ||
| Jima4media |
OK, I will agree with you guys and say that the Buell is not faster or quicker than the Honda CBR600RR. That much we already know. More from the article... Chris Ulrich: "My fellow racers looked at me like I was insane... I can't blame them for thinking this way, the XB-12Rs that Buell had been racing in Formula Xtreme were highly modified air-cooled time bombs that might have finished inside the top 10 if the bikes could actually finish a 60-kilometer race. This XB-RR had an engine with several hundred miles on it and was described at "tired" by the Buell people. (so much for advanced reliability) On the chassis side the forks had been worked on and the geometry changed to add more trail for better stability. .. the chassis was much better than the first XB-RR I rode, which was set up to the standard factory spec. With more trail the second XB-RR offered better front feedback and was more stable through the entire corner, from heavy braking to the apex and out. I preferred the handling of the second bike, but the worn out engine was too slow." (so if dealers spend the time to rework the forks, the XB-RR becomes much better) CU never said he "loved the brakes" the only thing he said about the brakes was... "The single perimeter front brake rotor accompanied by the eight-piston brake caliper provided good feedback, but the soft front end limited my ability to find out the true potential of the braking system." By the way, there were no quotes from Jeremy McWilliams, Steve Crevier, Mike Ciccotto or Don Canet about the ZTL2 brakes in that article. I'll be interested to see how the XBRR does at Laguna Seca. (Message edited by jima4media on July 12, 2006) | ||
| Anonymous |
Jima4, Why do you violently attack every positive thing published about the XBRR? Do you have any idea at all what set-up on a bike is all about at that rider level? Do you know that every top rider sets up his or her bike differently? What dream world do you live in that would suggest that every bike is the same? All four dealer teams had different chassis set ups at Daytona. Zemke's and Miguel's bikes differ greatly, and neither can ride the other's bike. And of course none of these parts are available to privateers from Honda. BTW, Jeremy's bike was set up the closest to stock of all the bikes at Daytona. Why the hell would there be quotes from Jeremy and Steve in this article? They weren't there at this test. And Blake has stated that Jeremy said directly to him that the brakes were nearly MotoGP level, significantly better than Superbike level brakes. You are calling Blake a liar I guess. Why are you claiming XBRR motors haven't finished a race, when they have? Oh, that's right, I forgot you are a simple ignorant troll! Excuse me! | ||
| M1combat |
"OK, I will agree with you guys and say that the Buell is not faster or quicker than the Honda CBR600RR. That much we already know." Wow . I don't believe anyone said anything about quotes from those racers being in the article either... Just for the record. I'm interested too Jim. You may think that we all drink a little too much Cuell Aid but you're dead effing wrong. We just have open minds and high hopes. I have no idea what your hopes are for the XBRR but you do seem to possess an astonishing lack of open mindedness. Hopefully you at least have some measure of patience. In any case, thanks for the snippet. I really need to renew my subscription. It's just not quite enough to only read the news at the website. So... Did he ever say that he didn't think it was capable of results better than it's current ones? Did he say that the brakes were great and that it handled well? Did he like the "new/newer" engine? Did he say that he would prefer riding the CBR? Did he say it wasn't possible for it to be competitive in FX? Did he say whether he was faster on the old one or the new one? I only ask because you don't generally seem to be exceedingly positive WRT Buell and their XBRR, but HE has actually ridden the damn thing . | ||
| Jima4media |
Anonymous, I am not violently attacking the article about the XBRR, I am attacking what isn't in the article. Of course I know that every bike has to be set up for every different rider. That why I was commenting that neither bike was set up properly for Chris Ulrichs' 5'11" frame. Have you actually read the RRW article? It was Diablobrian and Blake that wrote about how great the brakes were in that article, and there was nothing like that in the actual article. I never claimed that XBRR motors haven't finished a race, in fact I claimed that they have finished 22nd and 14th, which they have. Read my postings a little closer in the future, troll bait. (Message edited by jima4media on July 12, 2006) |
