| Author |
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Daves
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 05:00 pm: | 
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I have some certs, wintergreen ones, does that count? |
M1combat
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 05:29 pm: |
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Got it  .
Only if you don't think they make you right Dave . |
Hootowl
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 05:45 pm: |
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Tramp, never said you did. |
Daves
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 06:23 pm: |
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I don't know much at all, I'm just a sales guy. The things I do know that are in technical areas are from osmosis from smarter people than me.
They do make my breath minty fresh though. |
Pammy
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 07:31 pm: |
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"In parallel with this occurance, the throttle plate will(manually) open to allow more air to, in turn, aid in the burning of the fuel."
Manually means(at least to me) opened by manual means(in this case, by hand). I never meant to insinuate that the TPS opens or closes the throttle plate. When I wrote it it sounded correct. I assumed that everyone knew that you had to use your hand to actually open the throttle...my bad. I guess I should have typed it transversed. When you open(by hand) the throttle(via a cable attached to a mechanism on the throttle body that is attached to the throttle plate), the TPS sends a signal to the ECM which tells the ECM how far the throttle plate is opened(in theory). The fuel is then metered via a calculation already preset in the ECM for throttle position and RPM.
I have not come across a Buell that can tune itself, solely, via the O2 sensor. Of course my knowledge is limited.
My point was how the dirty air filter can cause ineffecient fuel consumption, because I percieved(from the first post) that that was the question asked.
My advanced apologies to anyone who may take any of the contents of this post as condescending, sarcastic, etc...
Olddog, in answer to your question(I assume it's directed to me): I can't.
"As would an O2 sensor and the resulting adjustment to the AFV."
Then my services shouldn't be needed...bikes should(in theory) be able to tune themselves. And I will say(before someone points out my half education) that it does correct for some minor changes(good enough). But when the airflow is changed dramatically ie: clogged air filter, no air filter, less restrictive exhaust, more restrictive exhaust, etc...Any O2 sensor will absolutely not make all the appropriate changes within the ECM.
I guess I had better get back over to the credibility store...I didn't purchase quite enough the first time...Hee hee hee, HA HA HA...man, I crack me up...
edited to add some smiley's
(Message edited by pammy on July 12, 2006) |
Pammy
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 07:32 pm: |
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I didn't proofread the last post either, so feel free to flog it all you need... |
Josh_cox
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 07:41 pm: |
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Buell uses the speed density formula to determine the fuel and ignition needs. For those of you who like a MAF, they are not my cup of tea. They create a restriction in the intake path. I'd love to see a map sensor used over those any day. I could type a huge thing about DDFI, but Buell did that for us already. Here is a rundown of the sensors and their functions:
The ECM needs the information from the TP and CMP sensors to calculate how much air is entering the engine. The TP sensor is attached to the throttle shaft on the left side of the throttle body. The CMP sensor is located in the gearcase cover on the right side of the engine. The TP monitors the amount of air entering the engine, by how far the throttle is open, whether it is opening or closing and how fast it is opening or closing.
The ET Sensor provides the ECM the current engine temperature. Proper fuel and spark delivery are dependent on the temperature of the engine. The ECM will provide a richer fuel mixture on start up and a higher degree of spark advance. As the vehicle warms up to operating temperature the fuel mixture will lean and spark advance will decrease.
The IAT sensor, mounted in the Helmholz Volume Power System (HVPS) air box, measures the temperature of the air entering the engine, when combined with the TP and CMP data the ECM can determine the density of the air entering the engine. The ECM also monitors the CMP sensor to determine the exact position of both cylinders in the combustion cycle and the engine speed.
The fifth sensor is the Oxygen Sensor (02). It is desirable to operate the engine at or near stoichiometric, or approximately 14.6 parts air to one part fuel. The inclusion of the 02 sensor allows the ECM to ensure a proper air/fuel mixture is delivered to the engine by monitoring the final combustion efficiency in the exhaust system. This ensures optimum engine performance at any altitude.
The sixth input is the Bank Angle Sensor (BAS). This sensor provides the input to the ECM that the vehicle is not leaning greater than a 55 degree lean angle. If the vehicle exceeds a 55 degree lean angle the BAS will interrupt the operation of the ignition system and the fuel supply.
Now, as to why it could get worse fuel economy, if the bike is running in open loop, the bike thinks it is getting the same amount of air as a clean filter. So, same amount of fuel + less air = less efficient. Luckily Buells use 02 feedback for the adaptive fuel value. With the AFV adjustment, the fuel mileage should stay about the same, but you will have poorer performance. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 09:42 pm: |
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The TP monitors the amount of air entering the engine, by how far the throttle is open, whether it is opening or closing and how fast it is opening or closing.
Then it must be a potentiometer or rheostat type sensor, which is not what I described above, and my apologies to Pammy for she was therefore correct.
Rocket |
Tramp
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 10:42 pm: |
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Pammy WANTS me, Beavis.... |
Oldog
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 12:23 am: |
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Nice Explanation Josh
I have a bone to pick here:
The IAT sensor, mounted in the Helmholz Volume Power System (HVPS) air box, measures the temperature of the air entering the engine,
Agreed
When combined with the TP and CMP data the ECM can determine the density of the air entering the engine.
Please expand on this as it does not make sense to me
1. The TPS "POT" sends a voltage to the ECM corresponding to the throttle valve opening
2. The CPS "Sensor" solid state switch detecting the edges of the timing cup and so the engine position,
(2a)Use a time base and you can determine speed.
What I am confused about is what the engine position has to do with the determining air density?
IAT [ intake air temp ]
CHT [ cylinder head temp ]
o2 [ exhaust make up ]
these listed measurements do make sense, intake air temp has an effect on the incomming charge density, cool air is denser,
engine temp and exhaust make up relative to the IAT would be predictable and repeatable under a given set of conditions
This combination could be mapped against a known density or a range of densities to build a model
Ie
2800 rpm 12% TP
Iat 58f
cht 280F
We need say .02ms on time for the injectors to get O2 out 50%
this may reflect standard density
AT SEA LEVEL
and in the assumptive information above the speed would be in some portion of the range in CLOSED LOOP operation.
2800 rpm 13% TP
Iat 85f
cht 280F
We need say .017ms on time for the injectors to get O2 out 50%
with a known engine temp and the SAME RPM / load the air is warmer, so it is thinner less fuel is required, The O2 is the director here the CHT determines a range
engine speed and throttle position can give us a load ie WOT and 2500 rpm heavy load and after a short time [ms] we can see if we are bogging or accelerating. }}
we have not taken altitude into account
but the relationship of the 2 temps and the 02 is the only thing that makes sense as to a "density" measurement and the IAT is +/- 10% accurate so I am inclined to think that the measurements all help refine the mixture but the o2 is the most critical, and is essential in closed loop
MAP and MAF
With the paint bucket pistons that the buells have wild swings in manifold pressure are likely the norm, IIRC a small oriface and a volume behind it may help this issue,
I did not consider it but as pointed out above with all of the air movement in the inlet tract (in and out) the vibes and restrictions posed by mass flow may not be a good idea. |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 04:59 pm: |
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"of course, in discussions where credibility can be purchased, all bets are off."
Besides being horribly false innuendo, that was rude and entirely uncalled for. Shame on you.
Isn't the honorable thing to simply enjoy talking tech about motorcycles without taking pleasure in pronouncing others contributions as mistaken and for sure without getting all personal and insulting about it. Sheesh!
Pammy,
I agree, the O2 sensor and AFV are only so capable of compensating for altered conditions affecting engine performance. But I think it is a pretty hefty range assuming the bike is in stock form. Y'all aren't much concerned with stock form, are ya?  |
Newfie_buell
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 05:45 pm: |
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All I knows is that when you twist the grip that little brass round plate thingy on the shaft turns the engine revs faster!!!!!! |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 06:46 pm: |
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All I knows is that when you twist the grip that little brass round plate thingy on the shaft turns the engine revs faster!!!!!!
Newf, I've had plenty that didn't at sometime in their life, lol.
Remind me to tell you, when the TVR accelerator cable snapped!
Rocket |
Tramp
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 07:42 pm: |
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?
no innuendo intended.
now i'm confused as all H*ll
 |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 08:47 pm: |
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I know in the Kimball (racer only software for "real" race ecm) software package
there is a provision for a barometric pressure sensor.
This is probably a left over from development, but it would potentially make the
fueling more accurate. I'd guess that it was pulled from production models to
reduce the cost of production. |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 10:03 pm: |
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"in discussions where credibility can be purchased"
The innuendo being that BadWeB is a place where credibility can be purchased through sponsorship. |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 10:59 pm: |
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Credibility can't be purchased at any price.
Here or anywhere else.
Advertising space does not equal credibility, that's something that has to be earned. Just like trust. |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 11:49 pm: |
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Oldog
| | Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 01:03 am: |
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Brian I believe a number of cages run a MAP sensor, (Manifold Absolute Pressure)
Barometric is a differential measurement between the manifold and the outside air
the back side of a MAP sensor "should" be evacuated to a high vacuum and sealed.
You are probably right depending on the grade a map or a baro sensor with a MV output can run over 100$ this is not hardened for our use, a transmitter
[ sensor with electronics ] will be more
[ industrial units start at about 400$ and go up well over 1500$ ]
If you had MAP or Baro and Temp you could determine density
there was/is a guy over on Vtwin Cafe that is selling an efi system that you can tune with their hand held device and a pot, it had an optional MAP input..
Wayne Taylor Taylor marine IIRC
It was Called MAD [Massive Air Delivery]
Kit included a HUGE Throttle body
I almost did it, |
Oldog
| | Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 01:26 am: |
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Pammy have you (& WES) experimented with EFI on the "sporty" engines since we spoke some time ago?
I keep thinking about some comments that AL(asb) made about improvements in the XB12 ECM units. The gist was about adapting one to a tuber as the programming in the new unit is better in many respects.
There have been no further Comments from Al on it that I am aware of and I like the idea of an IMPROVED ECM (better program) that is re-mapped for my application
I guessing that Like AL you would look at the idea,
Maybe use "that" soft ware to adjust Buell ECMs |
Tramp
| | Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 06:23 am: |
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Blake- that is NOT what i said or meant- i have never had, nor have i presently, any dog in the sponsorship brouha.
i'm also not a big purveyor of innuendo; i tend, as you might have noticed, to "come out with it" |
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