| Author | Message | ||
     Cochise |
I will speak about the "Mood Change" I don't know about the mood change thing. Jesus spoke more about Hell than he did about Heaven. The first time Jesus came here was to die for our sins, but the second time he comes back will be twofold. 1. He is gonna come back for his kiddos, and B. (joke there)is gonna be to destroy that which is unholy. What I consider to be "Christian" is a Born Again Christian, not just somebody who is "a good guy" I know alot of those. I do go to a Baptist Church, of the Southern Baptist Convention...the ones who originally came up with "separation of Church and State, which was to keep the State out of the Churches way, not the other way around. You don't have to be a Baptist to go to Heaven. Heck, I don't even care if you go to my church or not. You want to know how to get to Heaven? 1. Believe in the TOTAL Bible, not matter what is written. 2. Believe that Jesus Christ died on the Cross for our sins, AND rose again on the third day. That's pretty much it. Not too hard. Yes, you have to do more than that to keep in God's good graces, you have to be able to be a witness (something I struggle with daily and fail quite a bit). | ||
| Tramp |
I do my best to make my heaven on earth. I like to think god digs the little and big kindnesses I commit daily, and esteems my life's worth as much as he does that of someone who believes that jesus died on the cross for their sins. but that's just me. I do good because it's in my nature to do good, not because I need to be threatened with eternal damnation. the more primitive any society is, the more central religion is to that society. I seriously doubt any god has a problem with me, or is going to ban me from his heaven. but again, that's just me. | ||
| Pwnzor |
you're welcome in my heaven Tramp. you too, Cochise  (Message edited by pwnzor on July 03, 2006) | ||
| Bubabuell |
I'm beginning to think that Scientologists and Drummer owners have a lot in common. | ||
| Jon |
Glitch, Totally serious. | ||
| Shred |
I went to the Keith Code school, they did give out free Scientology literature. I'll post more about the chat "we" had some other time. I just don't have the time right now. It's funny...... | ||
| Toona |
Just trying to provoke some thought, nothing else: If we could get to heaven just by doing "good works" alone: Why did God send Jesus to earth to live a sinless life and die on the cross for our sins? Answer: to be the Ultimate sacrifice for payment of ALL/EVERYONES sins. In Old Testament times, the Jews had to go to the temple once a year to offer sacrifices. Jesus, being the spotless, pure, Holy sacrifice, with His death, burial and resurrection, brought in the Age of Grace, where salvation is something that is a FREE gift, only needing to be accepted once, not year after year or everytime that I sin. "Good Works" are a by-product of being saved. But good works, by themselves, are just simply not enough. Sad part is, there are a lot of really good people spending eternity in Hell, because the relied upon themselves, instead of Jesus' free plan of salvation. Example: If your boss had a check for you for $X, but you never took the time to stop by the office to pick it up, you would never enjoy the benefits of the bonus, the bonus was offered, just never accepted. How many "good works" are enough? If I can do more "good works" than you, does that mean I get into heaven and you don't? Or someone does more than me, I don't get in, even though I thought I "did my best"? Dan, Forgiven Sinner | ||
| Tramp |
oh, i get it. you're going to heaven, and i'm not. huh. i'm not sure i can live with myself anymore  | ||
| Bubabuell |
Yeah, that's a bit much. And as much as I'd love to rip it apart, i'll bite my tongue. For now. | ||
| Cochise |
Come on, Buba, let us hear it. I think a good debate is in order. I can handle it, when I get in over my head I will probably just bow out. --------------------------------------------------- Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: | ||
| Tramp |
it's not so much as being in over your head as it is just simply choosing to keep your path without having to account to any living man for your choice. i can dig that. faith and religion (not always the same thing) are very personal, and don't dictate ongoing debate. stand up for your beliefs, you owe no one an explanation. this is an essential tenet that america is based upon: freedom to worship. why do you think the pilgrims came here? just, please- don't tell me about how i'm going to hell because my particular beliefs don't 'zactly jibe with yours. i heard eerily similar holier-than-though dogma from muslim clerics in lebanon.... everyone else knows the golden path, everyone else is granted eternal paradise but poor poor pitiful me (nod to warren zevon). please. | ||
| Pwnzor |
As long as I keep worshipping this obelisk I found in the quarry everything will be ok. | ||
| Tramp |
until the chimps pick up the bones from the ossuary i slept out in, and start beating you back with them... | ||
| Skyguy |
Tramp, The Pilgrims came here because there was a renaissance going on and the hedonistic, wig wearing, screw anything nobles wanted those tight assed, straight laced, soon to be witch burning weirdos as far away as possible. So they gave them a Country they did not own but was far enough away by boat that they were not likely to return............ | ||
| Johnnylunchbox |
<<<< hedonistic, wig wearing, screw anything nobles wanted those tight assed, straight laced, soon to be witch burning weirdos as far away as possible. and quote of the week goes to...LMAO | ||
| Bubabuell |
Come on, Buba, let us hear it. I think a good debate is in order. I can handle it, when I get in over my head I will probably just bow out. Beyond being exclusionary and unsympathetic to the worlds other beliefs that only Jesus can save you, where to begin? I'll let Carlin say it for me... Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time! But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullshit story. Holy Shit! Indeed the opiate of the masses. And to say Jesus is the only way is preposterous. Belive in our invisible diety as he's better than yours. You don't hear Budhists claiming number one. Or even hindus. Only the Christians who claim if I don't follow their diety I'll burn in eternal hell fire. Come on... (Message edited by bubabuell on July 04, 2006) | ||
| Tramp |
"Tramp, The Pilgrims came here because there was a renaissance going on and the hedonistic, wig wearing, screw anything nobles wanted those tight assed, straight laced, soon to be witch burning weirdos as far away as possible. So they gave them a Country they did not own but was far enough away by boat that they were not likely to return............" precisely my point. They're alive and well, clearly. | ||
| Jackbequick |
"..So they gave them a Country they did not own..." And that was declared give any and all freedom of religion. And freedom from religion too. Now if we can just get religion out of politics... Jack | ||
| Cochise |
I'm in over my head now.  The good thing about the money thing is: it works, I am always able to do more with the 90% I keep than the 100% that I have when I don't tithe. It's amazing how if I pay my tithe 3 weeks out of the 4 in a month, that one week you don't (not all the time) tithe your car breaks down, you have to pay more than you would have paid anyway. Now then the unseen, all knowing, mean, big guy, that makes you do ten things or you go to Hell is poppycock. Not God, but that idea. I don't know a man or woman on this Earth who has ever kept the Ten Commandments, it just is impossible. I can give you a reason why Budhists, and the hindus don't claim their god is number 1 is because their god isn't alive. Let's say you are right and I am wrong...I have gladly paid my tithe all these years, I believe, by faith that Jesus died on the cross, rose from the dead three days later. I can be looked at like a fool, which is okay to me. This is really the most I have talked on the subject so far in my life, so I am not all vocal and tell everybody I see that my God will squash their god and I am going to Heaven and they're not. I am probably NOT going to change you, and you're definitely not going to change me, but this does help to sharpen my "skills" | ||
| Cochise |
Now if we can just get religion out of politics... "In Virginia, especially, many Baptist preachers were whipped and imprisoned in the decade before the American Revolution. Baptists soon became active patriots in the Revolutionary War. With their demands for religious liberty, they included a cry for political liberty. They loyally supported patriots like Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, and George Washington, and received their praise. Baptists in the South played an important role in securing the adoption of religious liberty in Virginia. Like their fellow Baptists in the North, they helped lay foundations for the national Bill of Rights which guaranteed religious liberty for all in the new Constitution of the United States." The very reason that separation of Church and State was even thought about was to keep the Government away from stifling the Church, not the other way around. | ||
| Pwnzor |
The reason people tithe... is because your life's labors can all be easily translated into currency. Currency is something the church can use to get other people to perform labors for the church to help others. Example: My mother runs the "feed my lambs" program at our church. Another church which is located in a "poor" part of town rents their parish hall to us one Saturday per month. Leading up to this day every month is a food drive at our chuch. Items which are needed but were not donated are then purchased. The night beforehand, mom goes down there to make sure the kitchen is all clean and no missing pots or pans. Then early on the Saturday morning, she and several others (sometimes me too) go downtown and fire up the ovens to start baking bread, making chili (always a big hit), and cooking turkeys and meatloafs, bacon, sausage etc. Right around 10:00am they throw open the doors and start serving lunch. By this time there are already 100 men and a few women waiting to get in. Along with a hot meal, they are also given the opportunity to take showers. The church we use is not only chosen for location but also because they have a small gym with a row of showers for men and women. It costs $1000 to rent that hall for the day. The groceries which are donated each month are worth well over $1000. The food which is purchased each month is in the range of $200-500. So figure on the conservative side, its $2200 a month in donations from the congregation, just for this one event. Somewhere between 2500-4500 meals will be served on that day by 10pm, and over 1000 showers are taken by the city's most needy folks. Every month. Not everyone has time to participate. But their money makes it happen. In this way they are just as much responsible for these good deeds as anyone else. Some of the church's older members are infirm and on fixed income. Their 10% often equates to no more than $60 or so. In fact, often they are recipients of the food bank's contents. It's there for anyone who needs it. I rarely attend chuch to be honest with all of you. But I do give 10% of my income to the church. The reasons for this are many, chief among which is the fact that local churches are the most effective form of charity in my opinion. By giving to them, a large portion of each dollar is turned right back into your own community, instead of being used in some other part of the country for people you will never know. Nothing wrong with helping them too, but I think when charity is given it should begin at home. It doesn't matter what God you worship or if any at all. The concept that some poor Uzbekistanian kid will go to hell because he doesn't believe in Jesus is just ignorant. How can you possibly know who he is if you are not told? Ask a frog who Jesus is, and you'll get the same answer. If we are to be judged, then there is really only one solid thing to be judged upon: our deeds. So do good. Lots of it. Or don't. See what happens. | ||
| Pwnzor |
There is no mention of separation of church and state in the Constitution. That document is based on the 10 commandments. | ||
| Toona |
In his famous book Mere Christianity, C.S. Lewis makes this statement, "A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on the level with a man who says he is a poached egg - or he would be the devil of hell. You must take your choice. Either this was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us." Who is Jesus of Nazareth to you? Your life on this earth and for all of eternity is affected by your answer to this question. All other religions [such as Hinduism, Buddhism. Confucianism, Shintoism, and Islam] were founded by human beings and are based on man-made philosophies, rules and norms for behavior. Take the founders of these religions out of both their disciplines and practices of worship and little would change. But take Jesus Christ out of Christianity, and there would be nothing left. Biblical Christianity is not just a philosophy of life, nor an ethical standard, nor obedience to religious ritual. True Christianity is based on a vital, personal relationship with a Risen Founder who is our living Savior and Lord. http://www.greatcom.org/resources/whoisjesusorig/lordliarlunatic.html | ||
| Pwnzor |
Try to remember that the New Testament is just that. New. Christianity was also founded by humans. Based on the life and teachings of one man. It is said that man was the son of God. The physical embodiment of the Diety. Just like all those other religions you just mentioned. Except to hear you tell it, the blind are leading the blind. (Message edited by pwnzor on July 04, 2006) | ||
| Toona |
Being that the New Testament was written between A.D. 49 and A.D.90s. I would hardly call the New Testament "New". The "new" term once again applies to "the Age of Grace", instead of being under the Old Testament laws, that were based on the 10 Commandments. 7 BCE to 27 CE (Common Era) Approximate time of life and maturity of Jesus. 49 1 Thessalonians, the first written work of the New Testament. 54 - 63 Paul's letters to the Galatians, Philippians, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Romans, and Philemon. Mid to late 60s The Gospel of Mark, James. 70 Destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem by the Romans. 70s - 80s Colossians, Matthew, Luke/Acts, Hebrews, 1 Peter. 90 Pharisees, meeting of Jamnia, decide on the final version of the Hebrew Canon. (This may not be a settled archeological fact.) 90s Ephesians, 2 Thessalonians, Gospel of John, 1, 2, and 3 John, Revelation, Jude, Titus, 1 and 2 Timothy. After 100 2 Peter. The physical embodiment of the Diety. Just like all those other religions you just mentioned. Wrong. All of the other humans that started "religions" were not "Dietys" they may have been "diefied" by their followers. But the one and only TRUE Diety, Jesus, gave of Himself to die on the cross, be buried (and the main difference between Jesus and ALL other religions) and raise again from the dead. NO OTHER religious leader, past or present, had/has that power- to give LIFE. I have never heard of Mohammad, Joseph Smith or any other "diefied person" bringing someone back to life from the dead. We, as Christians, don't worship Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and the other authors who wrote the Bible. That is why I choose to follow Jesus Christ, instead of some other "religion". | ||
| Cochise |
New, like five years old? Also, look at Christianity the first Christians were direct Followers of Jesus CHRIST (CHRISTian). Peter, who denied he knew Christ three times, who was scared of dying at the hands of the Romans, later stood up in front of them telling what God thought of them. That is what will happen later to Christians, they are going to be asked to either Worship Christ and die at their hands, or follow them and live. I would rather die a short, quick death, than LIVE a much longer death at the hands of God. | ||
| Tramp |
Toona- you DO realize that all 'those other religions' make pretty much the same case, right? the one and only reason you're even christian is because some mean-ass romans, bent on world domination, forced christianity on your forefathers. had the romans decided to roll with judeaism, instead, you'd be a jew who scoffed at the concept of christ as lord. you're simply the sheepish follower of what your parents told you, and their parents told them. doesn't make it a "fact", my friend. | ||
| Cochise |
There is no mention of separation of church and state in the Constitution. Great answer, you are correct, although many think it is. | ||
| Bubabuell |
I don't believe that at all and have ZERO interest in living in a theocracy. Christian or other. Keep it in private. Techinally it's not in the constitution but then either was the notion that black men can be free from slavery. So...? It's intention, poised by jefferson is a "wall of separation between church and state." Clearly evident from the get go. Let alone James Madison, the father of the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights, wrote in the early 1800s, "Strongly guarded is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States." U.S. Grant also called for Americans to "Keep the church and state forever separate." What else do you Bible thumpers want? The whole lot to convert to YOUR ideology? How Taliban of you. (Message edited by bubabuell on July 04, 2006) | ||
| Pwnzor |
I doubt whether most people who preach about it have even read the constitution. Toona and Buba, your opinions overshadow your facts. (Message edited by pwnzor on July 04, 2006) |
