| Author | Message | ||
     Pwnzor |
All three are Chinese SKS rifles. Czech and Yugoslavian rifles from this time period are problematic due to the fact that tolerances are sloppy. For example, you can't take a receiver cover from a Cz and put it on a Ch model without some machining. The only original parts on that middle weapon are the barrel and receiver. Everything else right down to the gas tube is brand spankin new or refurbed from TAPCO. Adding a muzzle brake and a polyurethane bushing inside the receiver has made this my favorite rifle. Accurate all the way out to 500 yards with the bipod and Bushnell 12x Banner scope on the high rise mounts (which allow continued use of the mechanical sights as well). These were the weapon of choice for many armies of the world before the AK-47 came into wide circulation. No stamped metal here. footnote: I don't know who those three guys are. I don't know what they are holding and I don't know what they are standing in front of. Looks like Wizard Smoke  (Message edited by pwnzor on June 23, 2006) | ||
| Snub13 |
Bomber, that is one fine piece! It's a "Single Action Army" (Peacemaker). Any idea who the manufacturer is? Looks kinda new (relatively speaking). Oh how I want one......The barrel is a little too long for my taste, I would go for the 4 1/2" Spatten, everyone knows that St. Bernards' are lazy! Sure they're big but come on...look at them. Now the Lab, that's a dog! it's really no wonder that it took more rounds! disclaimer: Bcord, that was a joke, no animals were harmed while typing this post. IMHO: As far as combat experience goes; There is no doubt that "real world" experience in anything is better, but as posted, there are too many of variables (ie; weapon / ammo combination) to make any blanket statement about one caliber or manufacturer. Having said that, I have used / seen the effects of the .22, .38/380, 9mm, 10mm, .40, .45, .223/5.56mm, .308/7.62mm and 30-06 (and the .50 but that's a little different) in person. I've had to treat wounds from many of the stated calibers. Some leave little holes, some leave big holes, all will kill you just as dead. As far as lethality is concerned, it's all about shot placement. As for stopping power, bigger is better. You all may return to your rants, thank you. | ||
| Snub13 |
" I've had to treat wounds from many of the stated calibers." Other wounds didn't need to be treated, if you know what I mean. | ||
| Bomber |
Snub -- it's a Colt -- obviously, it's been heavily worked on, but all the metal parts are original -- nice old nail | ||
| Tramp |
pwnzor- your statement about czech AKs is incorrect. the czech mod. 68 AK is the most reliable, and well-built of the kalashnikovs. it and the valmet piss all over that norinco chicom sh*t. I carried (& bivvied with, and fired) a czech mod. 68 ak-47 for a long time, and it lived up to it's reputation very well. it knows no equal in the kalashnikov family of fine weaponry. and, snub- you're only taking into account the m&m (morbidity/mortality) of given roundage, as opposed to it's field practicability. an '11 holds up and fires far better, for months in sand, grit, mud and slush, than do any 9mms i've ever carried. modern 9s are simply engineered for clean, antiseptic conditions. the '11 is the garand of the handgun world. the garand is a strong reason that all of europe isn't called 'deutschland'. much like the H&K 93, many highly-engineered weapons simply lack field practicability and simplicity. the FN/FAL pisses all over the H&K in this regard. I carried one in New Caledonia (think sand and saline mud), and wound up wasting much 7x62 in cocoanut plinking and hawg-hunting. | ||
| Djkaplan |
Wow! Love that old Colt, Bomber. Wish you could tell us more about it. I bought a friend of mine an Italian made replica of an 1851 Navy .44 (at Bass Pro, of all places) for his 30th birthday. His wife went ballistic until we showed her it took 10 minutes to load. | ||
| Snub13 |
"Snub -- it's a Colt -- obviously" Well, maybe it's obvious to some but I too have a limited expertise. particularly by just a photo. There are several manufacturers that have copied the basic design since the 1800s. Tramp, I'm not at all disagreeing with you (I like the '11s) "bigger is better" | ||
| Pwnzor |
Tramp, you misread me. When I said "Czech and Yugoslav rifles of this time period", I was referring to SKS only. I only referred to AK's to give the reader the time period reference. You are absolutely right about AK's. SKS is a much, much older design. | ||
| Tramp |
snub- please don't ever tell my girlfriend that bigger is better... i'll be lost. pwnzor- that 'splains a lot. now about that 'indica' v 'sativa' debate.... | ||
| Buelltroll |
I need a good wizard smoke connection since my high times subscription ran out... | ||
| Pwnzor |
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| Tramp |
Blake- You have a PM coming (jess kiddin'....) | ||
| Bomber |
SNub -- sorry for the lack of clarity -- should have been understood as saying "It's a Colt." full stop "Obviously, it's been heavily worked on." sorry for mis-speaking (writing/mumbling) My expertise doesn't extend to this piece either, beyond appreciating good orginal design and materials, and first rate gun smithing long after manufacture my father-in-law was a stone fiend when it came to Colt Convertions (cap-and-ball converted to metal rounds -- seems to factory did a lot of that kinda work, back then) -- this .45 came to him, I'm sure, as part of a collection he acquired, and he gave it to the aces smith that did all the complex work (dad-in-law was a pretty far armorer hisownself) and asked him to clean it up a little -- shoulda been around when we were cleaning up the stash after his passing -- allo sorts of odd stuff | ||
| Blake |
Emoticons good. I hadn't read the prior goings on in this thread and when I saw the remarks about shooting the dogs, I was disappointed. I was also confused as I view Spatten as a nice and considerate kinda guy. Glad that is all cleared up. Emoticons good. MikeJ good, even great!  Thanks Mike. | ||
| Spatten1 |
Tramp: "The garand is a strong reason that all of europe isn't called 'deutschland'" Yeehaa. You are a man after my own heart. | ||
| Spatten1 |
Blake, Just saw your post, thanks. I love my Labradoodle. No target practice here. SP | ||
| Roc |
Czechoslovakia never made a Kalashnikov rifle. The 1911 is John Browning’s genius; “Sam” was dead long before. | ||
| Tramp |
ummm...Roc- first and foremost- the czech AK (model 67) is a well-known and nicely constructed weapon. much like the Skoda guns (deja vu with this post), it was manufactured in the Czech Republic. The model which I carried was certainly stamped "czechoslovakia"... I didn't do it. Kalashnikovs were manufactured in CZ, Egypt, Hungary, Finland, Jugoslavia and Russia. I didn't give the "sam '11" it's monniker. that's a very old sobriquet from nearly a century ago. I also had nothing to do with incsribing/stamping his surname on nearly every one manufactured since the early 20th century. You'll have to redirect this gripe to the Colt Firearms Company. (Message edited by tramp on June 24, 2006) | ||
| Tramp |
from: http://www.enemyforces.com/firearms/ak47.htm " AK-47 assault rifles are or were produced in Albania, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Germany, China, Czech Republic, Poland, Yugoslavia, Finland, Iraq, Egypt, North Korea, Indonesia, Israel and even the USA. In some countries it was produced under license. Through the last half century there were produced approximately 70 million of AK family assault rifles in all modifications." (Message edited by tramp on June 24, 2006) | ||
| Roc |
I can’t corroborate your linked reference. Maybe you had a VZ58? “It is one of the VERY FEW "original" assault rifles used in the Warsaw Pact's countries (since most of those adopted the Russian made AK47, then starting production of national-made AK copies” - www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/2100/2108.htm | ||
| Jackbequick |
Tramp, Roc is probably right about your having the Vz58 in mind when you say that the AK-47 was produced by the Czechs. The Czechs never made a AK-47, only the Vz58 variant. I have the DIA DST-1110H-394-76 W/CH 1 "Small Arms Identification and Operation Guide - Eurasian Communist Countries" manual for reference. It does not list the Czechs as a producer of the AK-47 but does list them as making the Model 58 or Vz58. One of the quickest ways to identify a Vz58 is that it is the only AK-47 variant that used the markings 1 and 30 on the receiver for the semi and full auto selector. We may be splitting hairs a little but the following is quoted from the manual mentioned above and explains the difference between the AK-47 and the Vz58: "The Vzor58 rifles superficially resemble the Soviet AK-47; however, the two weapons are mechanically different. The Vz58 has a swinging wedge breech lock and a plunger-type hammer; the AK-47 has a rotary bolt and a swinging hammer." The description goes on from there and there are also some minor differences in weight, barrel length, and overall length, between the Vz58 and the AK-47. All things said, a Vz58 laying next to a AK-47 could be easily misidentified as an AK-47. I agree with your statement that the Czech arms have long been of superior quality. I have a couple of sporters, one built for me by my father, on Czech M98 actions and the workmanship and quality in those is a joy to the knowing eye. When I was gunsmithing, the Czech M98 actions were one of my first choices for an action for building sporters on. It was always a little easier for me if I found or a customer brought me a action to work with. I really hated ending the life of a perfectly serviceable Vz24 or Vz33 rifle to build a sporter. It was about the same thing as seeing a good Buell being used as a donor bike for a chopper... Jack | ||
| Buelltroll |
GOD DAMN you people argue about the STUPIDEST SH*T. | ||
| Tramp |
Take it up with the czech military, who refer to their czech-mf'd. kalashnikov as an "AK". What you guys seem to be missing is that the czech rifle is a design variant of the soviet ak. The rifle was designed by mr. kalashnikov, not mass manufactured by him. variants (incl. CZ man.), in the former bloc, are correctly referred to as AKs or simply Kalashnikovs", as he designed the basic weapon. Split hairs and argue all you want, but in the czech, slovak, pole, slovenian, russian, ukranian, and all fomer jugoslav militaries, all aks, regardless of nation of manufacture, or of variant, are called Kalashnikovs. The chicom mfd. pieces are referred to as kalashnikovs, as well. They're all kalashnikov (read as AK) rifles, gentlemen. | ||
| Aesquire |
The 9mm vs. .45 argument has been going on for more than a century. .36 vs. .44 predates cartridge arms. In Military use, with ball ammo ( full jacketed non expanding required by regs & treaty / no kidding ball's o-lead in the cap & ball era ) bigger is better, until & unless recoil/mass is too great for the shooter. So big ( handed ) boys & girls like bigger, etc. The 1911 reliability thing? Modern civilian guns have better accuracy than old military jobs. A "fitted" match target gun may not like dirt anymore than a Luger. The (western )Euro made weapons tended ( it's different in times of war ) to use hand fitted parts, with the barrel, slide, frame all serial numbered to keep each semi custom weapon together. Europe never really embraced the total interchangeability of parts that U.S. makers went for. You can take a pile of filthy milspec ( not hand fitted on purpose eh? ) 1911a1's, strip, & drop them in a bucket of gasoline, swish, brush, & re-assemble randomly. They should all work. DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME! "Death or serious injury" as the repair book says. It also wrecks the grips on a 1911 if you drop the wood in gas. Hollow points & FMJE change the caliber equation. Bigger is still better, etc. But! modern ammo extends the usefulness of smaller calibers. | ||
| Tramp |
One reason many 21st century folks might have a problem understanding the catch-all use of the AK/Kalashnikov monniker is because these rifles were manufactured and used, primarily, in a time and place where privatization, as we enjoy, didn't really exist. these were communist arms for communist times, and, as such, AK was a reference to the designer, NOT to the manufacturer. Seems to be a cultural issue. Again, the Czech AK, in it's country of origin, even to this day, is referrred to as the AK or Kalashnikov. It's his design, the czech armorers improved on it, and by "Prague Sring", they were referred to, simly, as such. | ||
| Pressureangle |
Geez. The science of handgun effectiveness has been available on the web practically since the beginning. Bigger is better; the only considerations are the size of the hole, and how deep it is. That said, the real-life empirical data between .45ACP and 9mm parabellum stopping power is statistically insignificant. I'll leave the usability factor to those who have real life experience stopping people with them; Nearly to a man, they prefer the .45. Personally, I've never fired a handgun I like better than a 1911 Colt. I carry a 9mm Browning Hi-Power. | ||
| Djkaplan |
"GOD DAMN you people argue about the STUPIDEST SH*T." I'm not a gun guy, but I love stuff like this. | ||
| Jackbequick |
"GOD DAMN you people argue about the STUPIDEST SH*T." I'm not arguing, I'm discussing. I often learn things in discussions and enjoy participating in them. Tramp, You are the one that insisted that the Czechs made a AK-47, they did not, and that is the point of my comments. I knew they made a variant, I said they made a variant, the quote from the DIA manual said it was a variant. What the Vz-68 clearly is not is a AK-47. Regardless of who and how many people call it by that name. If I understand it correctly, Roc and I might be the only two people here that understand the difference between a AK-47 and Vz58. I still don't consider them to be the same gun and wouldn't call them both by the same name. Jack | ||
| Tramp |
Jack- Thank you for setting the record straight regarding the Czech AK. Clearly, internet motorcycle enthusiasts' forums are the final order of the day concerning small arms nomenclature. I'll do my best to send word to the publishers of the associated/offending FM/TMs. Department Of Defense...what do THEY know, anyway? I'll make them aware, straightaway, of their egregious error in the content contained in the FMs regarding said arms. I'm confident they'll thank me for pointing out these errors. Surely this will lead to a thorough restructuring of the DOD's publishing program. When I catch up with some of my old buddies in Eastern Europe this winter, I'll alert them, as well, to their wholesale misnomer. I expect them to thank me for pointing out their errors in referencing their nation's weapons systems. I anticipate nothing short of international kudos for said efforts  | ||
| Kevinfromwebb |
I shot a friends Glock a few weeks ago. Seemed to be a nice shooting gun with a reasonable light recoil, I really liked it. It was a 9mm but I don't know which frame size it was... I went to their website and noticed they had some models with a compensator, that exhaust gas deal. For anyone that has shot both,would that make much difference in the recoil, etc??? Would there be any drawbacks to one with the compensator than without... |
