| Author | Message | ||
     Curtyd |
I was told years ago to pretend my rear brake wasn't even functional. It trained me to use the front brake only, and I now always travel with two fingers covering the front lever. I just think STOP, and I am already slowing down. It increased my reaction time tremendously and taught me to rely on those front binders and leave the rear wheel slides for just showing off. Now years ago I made the commitment to myself that no matter what was or was not going on when I glance at my rear mirrors, I NEVER will make a direction change without turning to look first. I can't count how many times that strategy has saved the "bacon". Practice, practice practice, you have to be able to stay on course and be able to look as well. It takes a very serious commitment to do it EVERY time. Anyone with any serious time under their belt has no problems with either of these techniques. Soooo, it doesn't much matter how bad the image in the mirrors are, if I start to rely on them, I am headed for trouble. Just something for the NEWBIES, OK? | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
If you got mirrors, use em, that's what they're for. By all means look over your shoulder as often as is practical, but remember, while you're turning your head & looking back, you're missing what's happening in front! Also if you wear glasses, you have a huge loss of peripheral vision. I fully agree it's not good to be totally dependent on mirrors alone, but don't ignore them, use them, you can check what's happening behind you in your mirrors a dam sight quicker than turning your head & you don't upset the equilibrium of the bike either. I know people are going to start posting about blurry mirrors, but you'll generally find that they're only blurred at certain rev ranges & you can learn to use them however bad they are. In my opinion any visual aid is useful. I wouldn't dream of driving ANY vehicle without mirrors. As for brakes, there's a time & place to use both, either, or none. If you ignore the rear brake & never learn to use it, you're missing a part of your game. However you ride, ride safe & ride smart, don't become a statistic! | ||
| Buelltroll |
XB's have a REAR brake you say?? Coulda fooled me. | ||
| Tramp |
i rarely use my front brake. utilizing your articulated/unpowered wheel fro stopping/scrubbing isn't always the best idea, at all....esp. in turns. but then, i grew up racing motos...what do i know? | ||
| Spiderman |
Yeah why use the front brake it is only 70% of your stopping power... BTW what is a rear brake?  | ||
| Angelwild327 |
Ugh, I'm sorry...but the rear brake advice for newbies is REALLY inappropriate. I think if you've got lots of riding time under your belt and you choose, on your own, to never use your rear brake..that's your choice; but the rear brake serves it's purpose..it HAS a purpose. Riding schools from new rider courses to police training courses demonstrate and test on rear braking techniques. I don't mean to offend, I'm no seasoned rider, myself...but to tell people their rear brake is useless just because it is not the primary stopping brake is, in my opinion, somewhat irresponsible. As for the mirror advice, I agree...more information is always better when going from lane to lane or whatever your needs are. Again, no offense... | ||
| Buelltroll |
I HATE the Xb's back brake. It's either locked or not there. I DO use it tho only because of habit I guess. Spoze one of Matt's 4 piston Brembos would solve the problem. | ||
| Angelwild327 |
ok basic stuff, but Motorman is the poop... he's a biker cop who teaches classes to the public... near the bottom is a section on rear braking..again, just very basic stuff... but many times back to basics is the key to being a better rider...because you can ALWAYS be a better rider.. http://www.ridemyown.com/articles/riding/BTB-slowspeed.shtml and here's one more I didn't want to link, but am posting instead... 1. While it's true that most of a motorcycle's stopping power is generated by the front brake, the rear binder can be used in subtle ways to make your riding smoother and safer. In certain situations, using the rear brake to scrub off speed-rather than chopping the throttle or applying the front brake-will have less of an effect on the chassis and keep you on-line in a turn rather than running wide. To use the rear brake properly, it must be adjusted correctly. The pedal should be a few millimeters below your foot when you're in a comfortable riding position; a misadjusted lever can force you to sit awkwardly or make it difficult to actuate the brake carefully. 2. When entering a turn, leave the rear brake applied until after the front brake has been released and the bike is leaned over. This will stop the front-end from rising the moment after the front brake is let off and before cornering forces act to keep the fork compressed. Once the throttle is cracked open, use the rear brake lightly to modulate your speed if you find yourself going a bit too fast. Closing the throttle will load the front-end excessively and cause you to run wide, whereas applying the rear binder will actually tighten your line and pull you to the inside of the corner. Try to avoid using lots of both gas and brake; you want just enough throttle to pick the revs up and keep weight off the front tire. 3. During slow speed maneuvering such as U-turns and lane splitting, the gyroscopic effect of your engine's spinning internals keeps your bike balanced. You can use this to your advantage by using the rear brake and slipping the clutch slightly to keep some revs going. Try U-turns using different combinations of clutch, rear brake, and throttle to find what works best for you and your bike. In general, just enough throttle and clutch slip is required to keep the chassis stable and moving, with speed modulated by the rear brake. Keep in mind that this technique results in more wear on brake pads and clutch plates, and they should be checked more frequently. 4. In downhill turns the rear brake can be used to avoid gaining too much speed once the throttle is open-especially in longer sweepers. As in a flat corner, crack the throttle open as soon as possible to unweight the front tire, and carefully utilize the rear brake to keep speed in check. Downhill turns are notorious for loading the front-end and causing you to run wide, but keeping the throttle cracked open and carefully applying the rear brake will result in a more even weight distribution and keep you on line. With some practice and experimentation, using these rear brake techniques will become routine, and will give you more confidence, smoothness, and safety in previously worrisome situations. (Message edited by angelwild327 on June 11, 2006) | ||
| Brineusaf |
I dislike the brake (EDIT- said bike by accident the first time) as well. And I agree Troll... they are either not working (read: barely working) or they are locked; but I still try to use it, whether it be to scrub a few mph while coasting downhill or just applying both brakes out of habit. As far as the mirrors go, it should be common sense to only move your "focus" when it is safe to do so (proper cushion, ect). I have mirrors for highway use (when the wind tried to break my neck), and to abide by laws/regulations; if I'm not doing above around 70mph I'll look for myself. Just my .02 Eurocents (Message edited by brineusaf on June 11, 2006) | ||
| Jimidan |
It is hard for me to believe that Curtyd is seriously advising riders (new or old) to ignore the rear brake and mirrors...geez. It would also be hard for me to believe that anyone will listen to him, although comments like "What's a rear brake?", have me thinking that maybe he has a bigger following than I anticipated. Are you guys joking? Why would Curtyd want to start a thread on this anyway, even if he did believe what he says? Sounds like a troll thread. But I have a certain affinity for troll threads of the type, so...not to be offensive to anybody's riding style, but what kind of crap is that? On a motorcycle you have two contact patches that are about the size of a couple of postage stamps on each tire. Take away one of those patches and that means you are stopping and possibly turning your bike with you and possibly somebody else on it, with the contact patch that is about the size of two postage stamps. That is asking a lot from that single contact patch. Even when you double that contact patch by using the rear brake in conjunction with the front (when you have to haul her down really quickly), it still is asking your tires to do a lot with very little surface area. I can tell you that in Jason Pridmore's Star School, they certainly teach you to use the rear brake. I agree that they rear brake is harder to master as you have to compensate for the front end diving and the rear end lifting off of the ground when the front is applied. But that is no reason not to practice how to use it without skidding the rear tire. Why wouldn't you want to use it anyway? Would you fight Mike Tyson with your left hand tied behind your back (assuming that you are right handed)? Next, are you trying out for the special olympics? One legged guys in an ass kicking contest? Jimidan | ||
| Curtyd |
"I'm no seasoned rider, myself...but to tell people their rear brake is useless just because it is not the primary stopping brake is, in my opinion, somewhat irresponsible." I think you answered my questions in the first few words of your response. By the way I am a seasoned rider, probably overdone by most chef's accounts. Learning to use your front brake effectively and hard is what will keep you alive. Generally the rear brake locks the rear wheel. Do I use it? Some, but I was better off in the beginning not using it and learning to stop a bike quickly when I had to. Rear slides are very controllable but for the beginner they can be quickly fatal. Stopping a bike on a dime is what will keep you alive. How come no one has commented about the "feathering" of the brake lever, 24/7? Anyone who can't glance around on a bike while riding and not steer off course or hit something needs to increase the hours they spend on their bikes. That is second nature to all of us who ride a lot. You can tell a seasoned rider usually within a few minutes. They just look comfortable and can shift around on a bike easily and comfortably. The novice all have their feet and hands planted firmly in their best MSF student poses and if they turn their heads you can just about see the bike reverberate with their movements. It's all about getting 100% comfortable on the bike 100% of the time. That takes seat-time. 20 years full-time including countless trips cross-state, half dozen cross-country, including a brief stint in Europe and moto-touring on all sorts of bikes and all manner of weather is what worked for me. Sorry, no track days, I am a moto-tourist/commuter only. GOOD LUCK. | ||
| Curtyd |
P.S. When you begin a stop and unload the rear tire, if you over step the rear brake pressure by a hair you lock the wheel. Now you have no control whatsoever, how is that going to keep you under control? Now both hands are tied behind your back as you slide right into the obstacle in front of you. I find all new riders paranoid of using their fronts effectively and they have to overcome that if they want to LIVE. That's my opinion and I learned that by going thru a time when I pretended is wasn't even there. It's worked for me. It's my experience and I'm still alive after all these 23 years of moto commuting. I didn't even have a car of my own from 1982 to 1999, motorcycle only. | ||
| Whodom |
There's a good article at this site about what they call "tapered braking". http://www.msgroup.org/TIP030.html It basically says you should start braking evenly front and rear, then, as weight transfers, go to 100% front, and as the bike slows down gradually go to 100% rear. The reason for going to 100% rear as you near stopping is to prevent a low side from a locked front wheel. Intersections are a great place for this to happen due to painted white lines, oil spots from cars, sand, debris, etc. The same also applies to stopping on dirt or gravel. If the rear wheel locks at low speed, it's much less likely to cause a problem. | ||
| Slaughter |
Angelwild327 - Good points BUT for racing or near-racing applications the rear brake is all but UNUSABLE except for very experienced riders simply because the MASSIVE weight shift off of the rear wheel and onto the front. IF you have to come up with a singe rule that most novice riders can "live" by - it would be to ignore the rear. DISCLAIMER: IGNORING THE REAR BRAKE IS NOT right for every situation but it CAN avoid trouble if you ever really need to do a lot of hard braking and turning. If you are trying to sort out too many inputs as a turn is coming toward you at warp nine, it's best to have a simple, uncomplicated set of rules. If you are running canyons, you really SHOULDN'T be going so fast that you need massive braking - but 99% of the time, if you ONLY use the front, you'll be good to go. 99% of the time if you try using the rear, you CANNOT reduce speed as much as you need. Sure you can do some impressive skidding but if the tire loses traction, you have lost braking performance (and to some extent, directional control) EVERY track school - whether for racing or track riding tells you pretty much the same thing. MOST tell you to NEVER use the rear brake for your first weekend except maybe in the pits. Obviously there are many situations in which slight usage of rear brake make sense but in PERFORMANCE braking, it's very rare to use the rear. Dialing the speed down from 140 to 90 in order to turn into a corner, you can't even touch the rear brake without HUGE concerns about sliding/skidding the rear out and then there's an awful transition when you roll on the throttle and the rear hooks up again. If you're not pointed in the right direction when you regain traction, it can get ugly INSTANTLY. There's no really good place to demonstrate or try this outside of a track because if you blow your line on the street, you run the risk of becoming a meat-filled wheel chock or hood ornament. On the track, it's embarrassing and inconvenient and you adjust your technique on the next lap. (that's why track days are so freaking COOL! - professional advice, no speed limits and repeated turns that can be memorized with cornerworkers in attendance to warn of unsafe conditions) - all for less than half the price of a speeding ticket. | ||
| Newfie_buell |
All I can say is I love my rear brake!!!! Especially Off Road on the DR. In the end good braking is a combination of both front and rear and the proper amount. Now I KNOW that Spidey has some kind of web stopping power!!!!! | ||
| Curtyd |
"BUT for racing or near-racing applications the rear brake is all but UNUSABLE except for very experienced riders simply because the MASSIVE weight shift off of the rear wheel and onto the front. " The equivalent situation on the street is when you're just getting ready to become a meat-pie or a hood ornament. That is when you need performance braking the most to stay ALIVE. Best to learn it before you need it, it could be too late then. Yeah, when loafing around town, rear brake to your heart's content, after you have learned to PANIC STOP. How come no one wants to chime in about feathering the front brake all the time? It is hard to develop the "claw" but once you do, I found my braking response rose dramatically. It seemed when I thought about braking I was doing it, no lag time. These techniques will save your life. Learn or ignore them at your peril. Quote motoman, et. al., all you want, it doesn't happen until you DO IT. I say learn to stop the bike hard FIRST if you want to survive ON the street. That's your front brake in any severe situation, street or track, if you ride these things anything like a quick pace, like most of us do. Anyone can crack a throttle, it's how you stop and steer a bike that will save a life, YOURS. | ||
| Cochise |
Practice all you want until the one time you practice and hit some chat, WHAMO, your lookin at "Blue, skies smilin' at you, talkin' 'bout blue skies, do I see." | ||
| Madduck |
On a new BMW, with the power assisted brakes, using the only the front brake can get you killed in a quite a few situations. The ABS can cycle so fast that if there is an unnoticeable loss of traction the computer can turn off all braking. All you are aware of is that 90% of your stopping is gone. Real pucker moment the first time. Washboards, rumble strips and gravel have all triggered this behaviour. If you "always" start braking with the rear brake first, the "problem/feature" seems to be non-existent. I believe it is still there, but it has never occurred with me. ABS motorcycle change all the rules you know and new habits need to be learned. My ABS is also much more controllable when I practice hard braking at least monthly. Exercising the BMW system regularly seems to be important too. Hard to belive a Harley softtail gets 70% of its braking from the single disc front tho.  | ||
| Tramp |
i've mentioned this a few years ago an atc- when me and my big brother were kids, our dad oversaw our mx and ft training on a near-daily basis. we worked out daily on a 1/4 mile horse track while our buddies were playing little league. anyway- dad had cool drills for us, involving braking (we entered various speedway events, as well- no brakes): we'd do 15 minutes with both brakes, 15 with the front lever disconnected, then 15 with the rear disconnected. we'd do another 10 or so with no brakes. innumerable years of this insanity taught me which brakes i need, when. no book or article's gonna change that for me. most m/c drops involve too much front brake on either curves or soft surfaces. ride however you like- i sure's hell will. | ||
| Ezblast |
Both of my rear brakes are over 90 origional - only used for wet or dirt type stuff - almost worthless for everything else - saving that fancy rear sliding stuff for my Rossi days - lol - not! Except for holding the bike on a hill and emergency straight line stopping - there is no use for them. Mirrors - look over when safe and always check your mirrors as well. GT - JBOTDS! EZ  (Message edited by ezblast on June 11, 2006) | ||
| Metalstorm |
I'll admit it. The only times I use my rear brake is in a real fast straight line stop. I'll give the rear brake a little pressure when I initiate braking to stabilize my rear end. After about two seconds it ceases to do anything. The other time is when I'm stopped on a hill. On Edit: I didn't see EZ's post lol. Great minds think alike eh?  (Message edited by metalstorm on June 11, 2006) | ||
| Lovematt |
Something can't be right with the rear brake for those of you who say "it doesn't work". Granted I have the Woodcraft rear sets which changes the feel of the rear brake but mine works very well...and I use it a lot to trail brake. It really does help in corners where you don't need to brake as much and want to "soften" the hit from rolling the throttle on. It doesn't take much braking force to do this... I agree with the 100% front, then a mix, then 100% rear when coming to a stop. I actually do that since I find it works well. Didn't read it nor get told about it beforehand. I did start out in the dirt and on fire roads, the rear brake is better in a turn while the front doesn't get used much except for the straights or coming into a turn but not while in it. I may have transferred some of this into my road riding but it is working well and rarely get passed by others in the twisties... (Message edited by lovematt on June 12, 2006) | ||
| Slaughter |
the 125GP guys actually put a Hayes mountain bike disk on the rear ONLY so it gets through tech inspection. The Hayes doesn't serve any function except to pass tech. AND it weighs less than 1/8 what a standard rear brake system weighs. Again, no technique is a "one size fits all" but if you ONLY use the rear or ONLY use the front you will NEVER have ALL the situations handled 100%. If you NEED stopping power on the street, you need to apply the most braking force possible and if your weight bias is about 90/10 front/rear, the rear contributes almost nothing to slowing you down. I can count on lifting the rear nearly off the ground nearly every lap in 2 places. More rear brake can't add anything to the deceleration. I'm even feathering the clutch in a "poor-man's-slipper-clutch" to try to keep the rear stuck when passing while braking. | ||
| Luvinit |
I didn't read all the posts entirely, but riding all the time with two fingers on the brake lever seems very dangerous to me, as well as being an indication of not feeling confident enough in your own abilities to grab the brake when necessary. Like people who drive cars with one foot constantly on the clutch... And the rear brake is very usefull to me in the rain or on uneven surfaces, or when I see a speed camera  But I don't ride a Buell (yet) so I don't know how it behaves on those cool little machines... With regard to rear mirrors, I look at them at regular interval all the time, and when changing lanes on a motorway, I look quickly over my shoulder. | ||
| Rocketman |
There's no simple answer on how to coach a new rider the use of a rear brake. It is a matter of experience only achieved by clocking up seat time. I am a seasoned rider of more than 30 years, and despite my nearly 45 years of age, I am still one who likes the edge of the envelope thrills of riding on the open road. I'm not one for ever using the rear brake as a stopping device unless I'm slamming hard on knowing I want to get speed off as quick as every trick in the book lets me. That 's a dangerous place to be and happens about once every two or three years if memory serves. In everyday day use the rear brake is a steering device at best. Best left alone unless an absolute necessity because it only really comes into play as a steering device if you need to seriously adjust your line in a corner. Don't get the line wrong in the first place. That said, it is without doubt the responsibility of any rider to be good at the game, so if you want to learn how to use your rear brake in the sense of 'brain to foot to wheel' and understanding the actions you're inputting, get an off road bike and navigate a few loose terrain slopes and practice your foot dancing on the pedal routine. Once mastered, bringing it to the road party is easy. Rocket | ||
| Kdan |
On our bikes the front brake is indeed the primary stopping brake, but a bike is a tool and knowing how to use the tool properly, yields the best results. Forgetting the rear brake is good advice for Newbs. As well as practice in a safe environment to use all the aspects of the tool so you know what it will do in any given situation. | ||
| P0p0k0pf |
MSF taught me the difference between Front Brake Only, Rear Brake Only, and Both. Would you rather have 30%, 70%, or 100% braking available in a sticky situation? If you don't want a rear-brake lockup, practice is the proper solution, not avoidance. | ||
| Bomber |
wow -- I'm always amazed at the experts who advise to forget the rear brake is there -- so many good reasons not to forget, but, hey, Mick Doohan musta been a poser, right? all -- talk to more than one "expert," take a class, attend a track day btw, head check along with mirror check is excellent advice! (Message edited by bomber on June 12, 2006) | ||
| Ceejay |
my .02 in regards to mirrors comes from the fact that I'd be dead if they weren't there. moving they don't work too great but sitting waiting on traffic to clear I often check and recheck as I've noticed a Dump truck with the rears locked, smoke rolling, and heading my way. Without mirrors I never would have seen him...braking as many have said is all personal preference too me...good in traffic, but probably not the best when panic situation, but then again niether is the front... | ||
| Bcordb3 |
Bomber says it all - and learn from experts, take a MSF course, or if you can afford it, take a course at a racing school. Every situation is unique to itself and should be treated as such. |
