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Tramp
| | Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 09:44 pm: | 
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curtyd- you can only learn if you open your mind to new ideas.
i raced x-class flattrack and mx, and i've ridden coast-coast many, many times since the 1970s.
no 'book rider' here.`
indeed, there is something you could learn, here. |
Ezblast
| | Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 10:16 pm: |
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Flattrackers are on a track. Again the rear brake is good for straight line braking in an emergency, dirt, water, stopping on a hill - that is it. The other uses described by others so far leave no room for correction of error and should be left for the track. These are facts - you can use the rear in all kinds of situations, however, that doesn't make it right - every MSF Instructor states not to use the rear brake in corners - that stuff is for the track.
I'm not siding with anyone - one of the people I like as a fellow Blastard is an exflattracker - we had this discussion long ago - your skills are just that skills - learned through time - SFMC is willing to help teach such - about 4 courses a year, however, you won't find that skill taught in regular MC curriculum. Yes you can toss yourself over easier with front brakes, however, you can stop better as well - you just have to learn - thats what the MSF courses are about. Use todays tech skill sets- not yesterdays - hell - if I could get in some flattrack lessons - I'd be there - would love to learn to tuck it in - still I wouldn't use such a technique on the street!
I believe in using the rear break, its just that there are no real uses for it except in emergencies - thats why you practice such manuvers regularly - in parking lots and such - to remember to use it when the time comes - like I said - both of my rears are like 90% origional - lol - could mean I've been lucky, may just mean what I've said - in common day to day riding there is little use for them.
Whats behind you does matter on a bike - so look when you safely can and use your mirrors.
GT - JBOTDS! EZ |
Tramp
| | Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 10:19 pm: |
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curtyd- who, exactly, are the 'book riders' to whom you refer?
first you say that rear brakes are useless, then you say that flat track is your favourite racing ('bar none').
you put it best, yourself, when you described the way flattrackers ride:
"Those guys ride on the edge all the time and I don't understand how they do it, but I love watching it"
you really don't understand how they do it, and, as a shortcut to understanding, you simply dismiss their mode of braking as being useless.
your next sentence:
" I wouldn't think that would translate to street survival, but I'll bet any of them could outride me any day in any environment"
is wildly contradictory. you 'wouldn't think' that their riding would translate to 'street survival'....yet you allow that they'd 'outride' you in 'any environment'.
does 'any environment' somehow exclude this 'street survival' to which you allude?
seems to be a lot of contradiction and shortcutting. i've still yet to hear whom, exactly, the 'book riders' are you refer to.
you're opining like the typical fair-weather rider, curt.
did you ever consider that your own 'panic stops' show only front wheel skids, in full stoppie mode, because that's the only brake you applied?
i seriously hope you're not referring to danny jesternuts when you allude to 'book riders'
i've ridden with danny- hell- i first met him in the autumn rain, on a mountaintop, in the early hours of a blustery morning, after he'd ridden several hours from new england to join a cold, wet, "spirited" buell run taht day.
that boy rides like a mofo.
i agree with you completely, though, when you state that you: "don't understand how they do it"
and when you say that "there is something I could learn there"
save the condescending labels for after you've learned... a day out on wet twisties with danny, me , or scores of other riders on this board might teach you volumes. |
Outrider
| | Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 11:03 pm: |
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This is just another pathetic exercise in internet mental masturbation.
Just learn to use both brakes in harmony with your throttle and you will find yourself with both a new perspective and better times through your favorite twisty and rough roads.
Your risk of high siding will be diminished tremendously and discovering gravel or sand, before, at or after your apex can be easily handled.
That is what Buell's do exceptionally well compliments of the rheostatic torque and linear HP. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 11:09 pm: |
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I've never ridden a flat tracker nor a speedway bike, so correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the flat tracker use inputs of rear brake as a steering device?
Tell me I'm wrong again but isn't the very low gearing and harsh engine braking combination the reliant factor in pretty much coasting to a stop at the end of a flat track race? Brakes not a necessity for stopping at all? That's how it is in Speedway at least.
Rocket |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 11:21 pm: |
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This is just another pathetic exercise in internet mental masturbation.
And there in lies the problem.
BadWeB quote of the year vote?
Rocket |
Johnnylunchbox
| | Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 11:31 pm: |
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My only comment on this debate is that I don't think covering the front break lever is a good idea (on the street) for both seasoned rider or novice. A sudden panic situation on the street at speed or in a parking lot maneuver can trigger the reflexive response of clenching the hand. This can be disastrous for many good reasons that have already been mentioned in this thread. For instance all law enforcement training WRT firearms always stresses keeping the finger off the trigger until ready to shoot. This was in response to many officers covering the trigger (and a person) who become startled for whatever reason and POW!!!! unintentional discharge. Agreed that there are many reasons to use either brake alone or in conjunction, but I don't like the idea of covering the front brake lever on the street. Just my two Euros. |
Curtyd
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 12:36 pm: |
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Tramp, why are you just trying to debate me, bored up there or what?
I acknowledged I might learn something from a flattrack, but not sure how well it would translate to street survival tactics, but am willing to consider it. Though, I probably don't have the time to pick up any new hobbies at the moment.
"Book-riders" are those who know they don't have that much riding experience, translate that as literally thousands of hours on the street as I presume Tramp and others have and I know I have, who quote an internet or book-based complex braking/riding scheme that they read about somewhere. It's all about making our reactions second-nature, that only comes with time.
I never "pulled the trigger" too hard on a brake lever, just STOPPED the darn thing in an amazingly short distance when I had to and it started a 1/2 second or so sooner because I feather the brake lever.
None of this is really about a debate, my "thesis" has been try some of these things for awhile, front brake only, feather the brake lever, LOOK before changing directions and not rely solely on your mirrors and SEE if it works for you, or NOT.
Seasoned riders like me and Tramp already have our bad behaviors programmed into us, we'll probably never do things any differently. "Teach old dogs new tricks", not very likely, but make the argument FOR doing something another way and I'll consider it. Any boob can find reasons NOT to try something different. |
Curtyd
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 12:49 pm: |
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P.S. On the "fair-weather rider" comment, that's never been the case. Tough to go cross country and camping and restrict yourself to good weather, or commute from Tampa to Miami for graduate school for a year all winter long and never miss a class, or ride The Natchez Trace followed by the Blu Ridge Parkway in Nov. or to check on the sailboat in Hurricane Elena or other tropical events, or even today with Tropical Storm Alberto blowing thru, or literally thousands of of other hard core moto-commuting days....well you may get the picture.
You know what I call Daytona Bike Week, the test of the faithful, those who ride there from their homes and ride away. Granted my home is in Fla. but I did ride to Laguna Seca, Brainerd and Mosport just to see the races one year or two from Fla. You wouldn't be one of those trailer moto riders would you?
.
No fair weather biker here and how does acknowledging the skills of a professional class of flattrack riders equate with me being a fair weather rider, anyhow?
(Message edited by CURTYD on June 13, 2006) |
Djkaplan
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 12:53 pm: |
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...make the argument FOR doing something another way and I'll consider it.
Read up on Mick Doohan's rear brake use during his GP career. He is a better rider than you... I assume. |
Curtyd
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 03:21 pm: |
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"Read up on Mick Doohan's rear brake use during his GP career. He is a better rider than you... I assume."
All these quotes about how so and so does it on the track is starting a suspicion that every one posting these tidbits on this topic is just another wannabe BENCH RACER.
Because "Mick" does it in MOTOGP, it must be good for them to, or at least to dream about doing someday as they strafe the apex on Main and Central, in Anywhere, USA. |
Tramp
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 04:17 pm: |
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I change my riding style pretty regularly. have since the '60s.
when it works, I keep it. when it doesn't, I still keep it, but i drop it in my toolkit.
someday i'll actually use that whitworth 1/4 drive six-point.
maybe not today, maybe not this year, but I have it, it's mine, and having it makes me that much more adept of a mechanic.
so it is with riding.
....get a lot of snow and ice down there, curt? 'cause on snow and ice, the front brake simply ain't the way to go.
look: you started this thread by bashing on a component that engineer/riders include on their machines, and which most of us use-essentially attacking the riding style of the majority of this board.
c'mon up and put some days and nights in riding with me...esp. in the frosty season, going from brooklyn to the catskills in the wee hours of the morning, in tight formation with a pack of preternaturally-skilled riders. then we can talk. until then, save it. i've ridden with each of my brakes disconnected...fact is, i haven't had a rear brake working on my nachine for nearly a month. it got soaked with oil and simply isn't 'there'. it's a zany way to ride....
nothing personal, i have no doubt you're a great guy and very skilled rider.
(Message edited by tramp on June 13, 2006) |
Djkaplan
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 04:27 pm: |
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I was wrong... you aren't a fool, you're a Curtyd. I have a strict policy of not arguing with Curtyds, so I will now bow out of this thread.
Have a nice day... and watch your six at stoplights. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 04:35 pm: |
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I use the rear mid-turn (mostly before the apex) to bleed speed when the radius tightens. Sometimes I just lean it over more, depends on how much fun I'm having at the time. I use it to stop. When I enter a corner hot (not too hot, but hot) I'll get on the rear "just" before the front to lower the rear of the bike so I can get a little more from the front early on. The rear ends up raising and the tire skims/sways side to side a bit anyway, but you "can" get more from the front initially by doing that. After the rear is un-loaded though... The brake is completely useless, and really, most people could probably make better use of the front brake if they just forget about the rear on corner entry. You have enough to worry about with trying to properly modulate the front while blipping the throttle and downshifting and working the clutch anyway... That and rear braking needs to be modulated with the clutch too. It gets complicated pretty quick and then over a long time it gets easy. You develop a feel for it.
Covering the front brake... I do when I feel slightly un-comfortable. Generally in traffic. I've never had any trouble with squeezing it TOO hard, but I don't panic much either. |
Curtyd
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 05:16 pm: |
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"...get a lot of snow and ice down there, curt? '"
Not too much, we used to get rain every afternoon, now it takes a tropical depression event of some sort to get rain. We now just have Wildfire Season from all the Dry Weather. It's a nice place to have no excuses NOT to ride 365 days a year. We are all still alive so far after riding for 20 or 30 years or so, so each must have figured some way to do it.
Don't really group ride very much, one guy has to pee, the next wants to smoke, some guys insist on side by side and damn the torpedos and someone always wants to start racing somewhere and usually by the end of the exercise someone has dumped the thing. It's just not that fun or relaxing for me to always have to know what some other rider is doing. I just like to keep myself alive, moving at a fair clip and out of trouble. Lots of miles, though, never been a racer, too old to start probably.
This isn't a hobby it's my way of life, now.
Practice makes perfect, only taking care of my young daughter and running my office keeps me from being out on 2 wheels every day. Hopefully she'll be riding herself soon enough. I'd better be careful there, though. Something bad happen when she is with me, I'd just want to go ahead and lay me on down and push daisys for eternity.
I still say, very few here can do anything but scan the thread topic and knee-jerk react with all their best MSF arguments "for this and against that", they can't seem to actually READ the body of the message that says try these things for awhile to improve your traffic survival skills. Just amazing, REALLY.
OK, for the third time at least;
DON"T TRY THIS AT HOME. Ride your own ride, stop with your rear brake only, drag your heels or throw out a boat anchor if you want, God Forbid don't actually LOOK before you change lanes, because those itty bitty mirrors showed it was OK to change lanes, NEVER learn to feather your brake lever, someone might think you aren't confident or that you could have a "hair trigger"..
Is everybody HAPPY NOW? |
Danny_h__jesternut
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 06:01 pm: |
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If anyone here is real serious about learning how to use proper braking techneques, please go learn from expertz. Don't go by what peaple post on motorcycle boards. Best places to start is riding schools. MSF experance coarse, you may or may not learn something there,you may also find you picked up some bad habits over the years. I did. Second race/track schools they will take you to the next level, ask questins, they will gladly answer all you can think of. Plus its great fun, was for me. Next read some books buy the pro's Keith Code's Twist of the Wrist, both 1& 2. There are several others that are worth your time, Proficant motorcycling, Sport Riding techneques ectra. Rember these books were writen by pro's, they probaly forgot more than most of us know. Last thing may tick of some here but here it is. So called self proclamed expertz/seasoned veterans if you think you know it all and have nuthing left to learn, please sell your bike before you hurt yourself. Never stop learning, always practice what the expertz have taught you.
Thanks T*R*A*M*P. Hope I can find the time and get down there and ride with the Hudson Valley Crew, great group o guys. |
Angelwild327
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 08:43 pm: |
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Great advice Danny....probably the best advice for "Newbies"...and everyone else for that matter. |
Bcordb3
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 09:14 pm: |
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I missed a page or two of this thread I will try read it all before it goes away. About the only thing I want to is that I starting racing AMA flat track in 1967, no brakes were allowed front or rear in those days, not until the early 70's disc brakes were allowed on rear only.
You learned how to scrub off speed with the rear tire. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 11:39 pm: |
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Very much agreed Danny...
Practice does not make perfect... It makes permanent. You have to practice the right way. I'm sure I have a number of bad habits. Doing Codes CSS Level one in November, as many track days as I can before and after that until February when the '07 CCS season starts. I may do a few races this year too just so I can go out there completely not worried about position but to learn form the guys that lap me...
I've got all of my gear but boots and as soon as I sell my Model 70 Classic (never been fired, I bought it as an investment) I'll have a Penske three way. After that I need about $1500 in spares, tires, and bits. Still looking for a good deal on a salvage titled 12R (Unless the stock stroke of a nine will bring a big bore out to 1350...).
I'm sure I have a lot to learn and a lot to un-learn... |
Cochise
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 14, 2006 - 01:34 am: |
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I was told years ago to pretend my rear brake wasn't even functional. It trained me to use the front brake only, and I now always travel with two fingers covering the front lever. I just think STOP, and I am already slowing down. It increased my reaction time tremendously and taught me to rely on those front binders and leave the rear wheel slides for just showing off.
Now years ago I made the commitment to myself that no matter what was or was not going on when I glance at my rear mirrors, I NEVER will make a direction change without turning to look first. I can't count how many times that strategy has saved the "bacon". Practice, practice practice, you have to be able to stay on course and be able to look as well. It takes a very serious commitment to do it EVERY time. Anyone with any serious time under their belt has no problems with either of these techniques.
Soooo, it doesn't much matter how bad the image in the mirrors are, if I start to rely on them, I am headed for trouble. Just something for the NEWBIES, OK?
Nope, pretty much just practice those two techniques. Don't get too paranoid, nobody is "out to get you", just don't want any noobies gettin' Pug Dog faced, when they hit gravel hard on the front brake. |
Jimidan
| | Posted on Thursday, June 15, 2006 - 01:29 am: |
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ezblast sez:
"I believe in using the rear break, its just that there are no real uses for it except in emergencies - thats why you practice such manuvers regularly - in parking lots and such - to remember to use it when the time comes - like I said - both of my rears are like 90% origional - lol - could mean I've been lucky, may just mean what I've said - in common day to day riding there is little use for them."
There certainly are many situations where judicious use of the rear brake is entirely appropriate. It really settles the rear end when you come into a corner that is surprisingly sharp, and you do not want to compress the front forks with just the front.
You just have to develop the skill necessary to use it without locking up the rear wheel. I know it isn't easy. I think that is really why most folks who do not use the rear refrain...they do not have the skills. Practice, practice, practice.
In fact, I go through several rear brake pads to every pair of front brake pads. Maybe if you were not riding a BLAST, you could ride fast enough to make a difference if you were using the rear brake. At really slow speeds, I guess it doesn't matter if you drag your feet to stop. Fred Flintstone never had a rear brake and didn't need one.
jimidan |
Jimidan
| | Posted on Thursday, June 15, 2006 - 01:36 am: |
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M1 Combat sez:
"I use the rear mid-turn (mostly before the apex) to bleed speed when the radius tightens. Sometimes I just lean it over more, depends on how much fun I'm having at the time. I use it to stop. When I enter a corner hot (not too hot, but hot) I'll get on the rear "just" before the front to lower the rear of the bike so I can get a little more from the front early on. The rear ends up raising and the tire skims/sways side to side a bit anyway, but you "can" get more from the front initially by doing that. After the rear is un-loaded though... The brake is completely useless, and really, most people could probably make better use of the front brake if they just forget about the rear on corner entry. You have enough to worry about with trying to properly modulate the front while blipping the throttle and downshifting and working the clutch anyway... That and rear braking needs to be modulated with the clutch too. It gets complicated pretty quick and then over a long time it gets easy. You develop a feel for it.
Covering the front brake... I do when I feel slightly un-comfortable. Generally in traffic. I've never had any trouble with squeezing it TOO hard, but I don't panic much either."
Exactly. Hey, if it were easy, everybody would be fast.
jimidan |
Jimidan
| | Posted on Thursday, June 15, 2006 - 01:44 am: |
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Angelwild327 sez:
"Although I am not a seasoned rider, I am a seasoned grown woman. I have done research on my own, taken advice from and physically learned from many seasoned riders.
I will tell you this, I have seen rear wheel lock up, done on purpose, for my viewing pleasure, and I understand the concept."
That is the way I like to hear them talk! Yours was the best response to the original post.
jimidan |
Newfie_buell
| | Posted on Thursday, June 15, 2006 - 07:13 am: |
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If this was advertised I'd buy tickets to sit down and watch this one.
Bill hit the nail on the head with his comment.
Geesh - will you all go ride, use the brakes if you want or don't. |
Tramp
| | Posted on Thursday, June 15, 2006 - 11:53 am: |
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that can be said of any thread which begins with:
(insert safety device names here)...ignore them and ride safer...
watch- I'll start a similar thread.... |
Ezblast
| | Posted on Thursday, June 15, 2006 - 04:32 pm: |
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Jimidan - come with me to Alices and let me know how slow I ride - lol
GT - JBOTDS! EZ |
Bigblock
| | Posted on Thursday, June 15, 2006 - 06:42 pm: |
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Tramp's thread is funnier, go over there!  |
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