| Author |
Message |
    
Mb182
| | Posted on Friday, June 09, 2006 - 01:01 pm: | 
|
Panic
He was convicted to death for several murders in Jordan!! maybe even more than once..
You post amazes me - where have you been??
MB |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, June 09, 2006 - 01:35 pm: |
|
Bomber,
I agree that we should officially declare war against al qaeda. I disagree that we are not in a state of war against al qaeda. Declared officially or not, we are at war against al qaeda. It is frustrating that we've never made that an official declaration.
Is it even possible to declare war, via its formal definition as you describe, against an organization of criminals and terrorists?
I dunno.
I guess I'm more pragmatic than some. For me I see that our enemy has officially declared war against us, and has committed egregious acts of war against us and our allies; that is good enough for me. |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, June 09, 2006 - 01:45 pm: |
|
Skyguy,
Nothing wrong with you most recent post above. Something big time unacceptable with your first version of it though. Sent you a PM to explain.
Was hoping you would realize the reason for its removal absent an explanation, on account of I'm lazy.
Thanks for understanding,
Blake |
Light_keeper
| | Posted on Friday, June 09, 2006 - 01:49 pm: |
|
I recieved this from a friend today and thought it would be of interest.
If It Weren't For 'Sheep Dogs' "There Would Be NO United States of
> America
>
> ON SHEEP, WOLVES, AND SHEEPDOGS
> Jill Edwards is a junior math major at the University of Washington.
> In brief, Edwards, a member of the UW student senate, opposed a
> memorial
to
> UW grad "Pappy" Boyington. Boyington was a U.S. Marine aviator who
> earned the Medal of Honor in World War II. Edwards said that she
> didn't think it was appropriate to honor a person who killed other
> people. She also said that a member of the Marine Corps was NOT an
> example of the sort of person the University of Washington wanted to
produce.
>
> Gen. Dula's letter to the University of Washington student senate
> leader:
> To: Edwards, Jill (student, UW)
> Subj: Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs
>
> Miss Edwards,
> I read of your 'student activity' regarding the proposed memorial to
> Col Greg Boyington, USMC and a Medal of Honor winner. I suspect you
> will receive a bellyful of angry e-mails from conservative folks like
> me. You
may
> be too young to appreciate fully the sacrifices of generations of
servicemen
> and servicewomen on whose shoulders you and your fellow students
> stand. I forgive you for the untutored ways of youth and your naiveté.
>
> It may be that you are, simply, a sheep. There's no dishonor in being
> a sheep - - as long as you know and accept what you are. Please take
a
> couple of minutes to read the following. And be grateful for the
thousands -
> - millions - - of American sheepdogs who permit you the freedom to
> express even bad ideas.
>
> Brett Dula
> Sheepdog, retired
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> ON SHEEP, WOLVES, AND SHEEPDOGS
>
> By LTC(RET) Dave Grossman, RANGER,
> Ph.D., author of "On Killing."
>
> Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so
> because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy
things
> that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In our time,
> that may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, persecution,
> or as always, even death itself. The question remains: What is worth
defending?
> What is worth dying for? What is worth living for? - William J.
> Bennett -
in
> a lecture to the United States Naval Academy November 24, 1997
>
> One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me:
> "Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle,
> productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident." This
> is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and
> the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this
> means is
that
> the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another.
>
> Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent
> crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time
> record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million
> Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent
> crime is considerably
less
> than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many
> violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of
> violent citizens is considerably less than two million.
>
> Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the
> situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but
violence
> is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind,
> decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by
> accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep.
>
> I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me, it is like the
> pretty, blue robin's egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it
> will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without
> its hard blue shell.
>
> Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and
> someday the civilization they protect will grow into something
> wonderful. For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from
> the predators.
>
> "Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves
> feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves
out
> there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it.
There
> are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The
> moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep.
> There is no safety in denial.
>
> "Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to
> protect the flock and confront the wolf."
>
> If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive
> citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy
> for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive
> sociopath, a wolf.
>
> But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your
> fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior,
someone
> who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of
> darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed
>
> Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the sheep,
> wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial, that is
> what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil
> in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is
> why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and
> fire exits throughout their kids' schools.
>
> But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police
> officer in their kid's school. Our children are thousands of times
> more likely to be killed or seriously injured by school violence than
> fire, but the sheep's only response to the possibility of violence is
> denial. The
idea
> of someone coming to kill or harm their child is just too hard, and so
they
> chose the path of denial.
>
> The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the
> wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference,
> though, is that the sheepdog must not, cannot and will not ever harm
> the sheep. Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little
> lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other
> way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours.
>
> Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that
> there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell
> them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready
> in
our
> airports, in camouflage fatigues, holding an M-16. The sheep would
> much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself
> white, and go, "Baa." Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock
> tries
desperately
> to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.
>
> The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough
> high school students, and under ordinary circumstances they would not
> have had the time of day for a police officer. They were not bad kids;
> they
just
> had nothing to say to a cop. When the school was under attack,
> however,
and
> SWAT teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, the officers had to
> physically peel those clinging, sobbing kids off of them. This is how
> the little lambs feel about their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door.
>
> Look at what happened after September 11, 2001 when the wolf pounded
> hard on the door. Remember how America, more than ever before, felt
> differently about their law enforcement officers and military personnel?
> Remember how many times you heard the word hero?
>
> Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a
> sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a
sheepdog
> is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter,
> checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and
> yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn
> for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and
> wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed, right along
> with the young
ones.
>
> Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep
> pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day.
After
> the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, most
citizens
> in America said, "Thank God I wasn't on one of those planes." The
sheepdogs,
> the warriors, said, "Dear God, I wish I could have been on one of
> those planes. Maybe I could have made a difference." When you are
> truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into
> warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a
difference.
>
>
> There is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the warrior, but
> he does have one real advantage. Only one. And that is that he is able
> to survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98 percent of
> the population.
>
> There was research conducted a few years ago with individuals
> convicted of violent crimes. These cons were in prison for serious,
> predatory crimes of violence: assaults, murders and killing law
enforcement
> officers. The vast majority said that they specifically targeted
> victims
by
> body language: Slumped walk, passive behavior and lack of awareness.
> They chose their victims like big cats do in Africa, when they select
> one out
of
> the herd that is least able to protect itself.
>
> Some people may be destined to be sheep and others might be
> genetically primed to be wolves or sheepdogs. But I believe that most
people
> can choose which one they want to be, and I'm proud to say that more
> and more Americans are choosing to become sheepdogs.
>
> Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was
> honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you recall,
> was the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his cell
> phone to
alert
> an operator from United Airlines about the hijacking. When he learned
> of
the
> other three passenger planes that had been used as weapons, Todd
> dropped
his
> phone and uttered the words, "Let's roll," which authorities believe
> was a signal to the other passengers to confront the terrorist
> hijackers. In one hour, a transformation occurred among the passengers
> - athletes, business people and parents. -- from sheep to sheepdogs
> and together they fought
the
> wolves, ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on the ground.
>
> There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible
> evil of evil men. - Edmund Burke
>
> Here is the point I like to emphasize, especially to the thousands of
> police officers and soldiers I speak to each year. In nature the
> sheep, real sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs are born that way, and
> so are wolves. They didn't have a choice. But you are not a critter.
> As a human being, you can be whatever you want to be. It is a
> conscious, moral decision.
>
> If you want to be a sheep, then you can be a sheep and that is okay,
> but you must understand the price you pay. When the wolf comes, you
> and
your
> loved ones are going to die if there is not a sheepdog there to
> protect
you.
> If you want to be a wolf, you can be one, but the sheepdogs are going
> to hunt you down and you will never have rest, safety, trust or love.
> But if you want to be a sheepdog and walk the warrior's path, then you
> must make
a
> conscious and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare
> yourself to thrive in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes
> knocking at the door.
>
> For example, many officers carry their weapons in church. They are
> well concealed in ankle holsters, shoulder holsters or inside-the-belt
> holsters tucked into the small of their backs. Anytime you go to some
> form of religious service, there is a very good chance that a police
> officer in your congregation is carrying. You will never know if there
> is such an individual in your place of worship, until the wolf appears
> to massacre
you
> and your loved ones.
>
> I was training a group of police officers in Texas, and during the
> break, one officer asked his friend if he carried his weapon in church.
The
> other cop replied, "I will never be caught without my gun in church."
> I asked why he felt so strongly about this, and he told me about a cop
> he
knew
> who was at a church massacre in Ft. Worth, Texas in 1999. In that
incident,
> a mentally deranged individual came into the church and opened fire,
gunning
> down fourteen people. He said that officer believed he could have
> saved every life that day if he had been carrying his gun. His own son
> was shot, and all he could do was throw himself on the boy's body and wait
to die.
> That cop looked me in the eye and said, "Do you have any idea how hard
> it would be to live with yourself after that?"
>
> Some individuals would be horrified if they knew this police officer
> was carrying a weapon in church. They might call him paranoid and
> would probably scorn him. Yet these same individuals would be enraged
> and would call for "heads to roll" if they found out that the airbags
> in their cars were defective, or that the fire extinguisher and fire
> sprinklers in their kids' school did not work. They can accept the
> fact that fires and traffic accidents can happen and that there must be
safeguards against them.
>
> Their only response to the wolf, though, is denial, and all too often
> their response to the sheepdog is scorn and disdain. But the
sheepdog
> quietly asks himself, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to
> live with yourself if your loved ones were attacked and killed, and
> you had to stand there helplessly because you were unprepared for that
day?"
>
> It is denial that turns people into sheep. Sheep are psychologically
> destroyed by combat because their only defense is denial, which is
> counterproductive and destructive, resulting in fear, helplessness and
> horror when the wolf shows up.
>
> Denial kills you twice. It kills you once, at your moment of truth
> when you are not physically prepared: you didn't bring your gun, you
didn't
> train. Your only defense was wishful thinking. Hope is not a strategy.
> Denial kills you a second time because even if you do physically
> survive, you are psychologically shattered by your fear, helplessness
> and horror at your moment of truth.
>
> Gavin de Becker puts it like this in Fear Less, his superb post-9/11
> book, which should be required reading for anyone trying to come to
> terms with our current world situation: "...denial can be seductive,
> but it has
an
> insidious side effect. For all the peace of mind deniers think they
> get by saying it isn't so, the fall they take when faced with new
> violence is all the more unsettling."
>
> Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme, a contract written entirely in
> small print, for in the long run, the denying person knows the truth
> on some level. And so the warrior must strive to confront denial in
> all
aspects
> of his life, and prepare himself for the day when evil comes.
>
> If you are warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and you
> step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending
> that the bad man will not come today. No one can be "on" 24/7, for a
> lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized to carry
> a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath,
> and say this to yourself..."Baa."
>
> This business of being a sheep or a sheep dog is not a yes-no
> dichotomy. It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It is a
> matter
of
> degrees, a continuum. On one end is an abject, head-in-the-sand-sheep
> and
on
> the other end is the ultimate warrior. Few people exist completely on
> one end or the other.
>
> Most of us live somewhere in between. Since 9-11 almost everyone in
> America took a step up that continuum, away from denial. The sheep
> took a few steps toward accepting and appreciating their warriors, and
> the
warriors
> started taking their job more seriously. The degree to which you move
> up that continuum, away from sheephood and denial, is the degree to
> which you and your loved ones will survive, physically and
> psychologically at your moment of truth.
>
> "If It Weren't For Sheep Dogs"
> "There Would Be NO United States of America"
>
>
> |
Bomber
| | Posted on Friday, June 09, 2006 - 02:10 pm: |
|
Blake -- you are right, there IS no way (at present) to declare war agains an organization or gourp of persons other than a nation-state
as for pragmatism, I'm all for it -- let's make Pi three, shall we? ever so much more easy to remember and work with (humor)
we are, i would hope, a nation that is mostly about th erule of law, and striving to be better than much of the rest of the world -- while I agree that we must do as we have been doing, ignoring the rule of law is short-sighted, and we should be working that end of the problem, as well --
the presnet group against which we are fighting will not be the last, and the US, and other nations, need a framework (preferrable agreed upon) in which to rid the planet of the folks
ignoring the law is not pragmatic, I would submit, but simply short sighted |
M1combat
| | Posted on Friday, June 09, 2006 - 02:28 pm: |
|
If someone walks up to me and says "I'm gunna kick yer ass.", then proceeds to try to pound on me... I'm not going to say anything... I'm going to strike back immediately. Damn the words. The world sees what happened to us and they see how we reacted. That's good enough for me.
I've never been much of a fan of laws anyway... I'm a fan of doing the right thing and all too often laws get in the way of that. |
Midknyte
| | Posted on Friday, June 09, 2006 - 02:39 pm: |
|
quote:
A mortally wounded Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was still alive and mumbling on a gurney when Iraqi police arrived at the site bombed by U.S. forces there, a top American military spokesman said Friday.
So he had an opportunity to "know what hit him". This is a pleasant item. |
Bomber
| | Posted on Friday, June 09, 2006 - 03:16 pm: |
|
M1 -- fully agreed -- the difference between individual action and action at a national level is large, I believe
ah well, I've been pounding this drum fer a while -- not need to try anyone's patience any further, I spose ;-}
carry on, gents! |
Hootowl
| | Posted on Friday, June 09, 2006 - 04:02 pm: |
|
"It had all the effect it was intended to have.
It prevented anyone from discussing the generals's request that Rumsfeld be dismissed.
Just out of curiousity: in which court was he convicted of a crime? Who was he attacking when he was killed? What legal authority do we have to kill a foreign national outside the US?
And finally, since the answer to these is fairly obvious, how is this different from some student planning to kill the Canadian PM?"
Allow me to explain...no that would take too long...let me sum up...I hate George W Bush and I blame him for all the evil in the world.
or
G.W. has caused all the problems this country faces. (A remarkable achievement given that he inherited them with his office.)
You lefties make me sick. |
Oldog
| | Posted on Friday, June 09, 2006 - 04:23 pm: |
|
well said Blake.. |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, June 09, 2006 - 05:00 pm: |
|
"let's make Pi three, shall we?"
That ain't pragmatic! That's dangerously irresponsible! I should ban you for spouting such heresy! <kidding!>
But 3.1416 is pragmatic, for most stuff anyway. Heck, 3.14 works fine for most stuff.
Are we really "ignoring the law?" What law? Who's law?
I ignored a law yesterday. It was a stressful endeavor though. Yet strangely satisfying.
Hoot!
More oatmeal stout please! I'll pay money!  |
Hootowl
| | Posted on Friday, June 09, 2006 - 05:04 pm: |
|
Working on it... |
Brineusaf
| | Posted on Friday, June 09, 2006 - 06:11 pm: |
|
sgthigg - Funny funny... little late responding I know.
We had to wait till a commercial to do anything.
Little picture from an email @ work |
Aesquire
| | Posted on Friday, June 09, 2006 - 06:23 pm: |
|
I tell you, and all who listen that you are invisible on a motorcycle in traffic. The reason the "left turn in front of me" accident happens is the driver never saw you. When this was studied, no one who "never saw him!" turned out to ride, or have a close relative that did. Motorcycles did not exist in their universe, and the image on their retina's never triggered a recognition in their minds. They indeed, never "saw" him.
In a slightly different vein......
I have always been amazed at the person that can be told "I am going to hurt & kill you" over and over and goes into a state of shock when the first blow lands. Even more amazing is when he/she denies that the blow was struck in the first place. Blood trickling from a broken nose, and the words "people don't act like that!" coming out of their mouths. I've seen it, in person.
Denial is not just a river in Egypt.
Since the U.S. has not declared a formal war since WW2, ( correct me if I'm wrong ) does that make Korea and all subsequent actions that involved troops not wars? Bull.
""war" is a decalred state of hostilities between to sovereign nations, and no such state exists at present"
Uhm. No. I disagree. Since no nation on earth can fight the forces of democracy ( The alliance of the willing ) in a stand up fight, asymetrical or terrorist war is the choice of the evil. That's why the "militia's" with no admitted connection to a nation are killing in Africa, Asia & Pacifica.
The enemy declared war years ago. The thug this thread is about murdered people on television & bragged about it.
If you go to the web sites of the enemy, and know that U.S. Navy Seals & Israeli Swimmers are not going up sewers in Indonesia to plant nuclear weapons under a night club. ( never mind that the f*&%$ that planted that bomb in Bali claimed credit for it. ) If you can see past the lies, and get to the instruction manuals published for all to see, you find that lies for the press, & propaganda for the enemy is the most potent tool in the arsenal.
I disagree with the U.S. government fairly frequently. ( The Govt. response to bozo's like "click & Clack the tappet bro's" that complained so much about Montana's speed limits that now it takes forever to get to Wyoming are a good example. ) I would have done things different if I were in charge.
However.
Lies about objective reality go beyond denial & into willful propaganda, giving aid & comfort to the enemy, and doing exactly what they wish you to do. Think about that.
You may argue that we could in the future do things better. With more sensitivity. Smarter. That is not what I am hearing from some.
(Message edited by aesquire on June 09, 2006) |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Friday, June 09, 2006 - 07:19 pm: |
|
Yes you're right Blake. I should have worded that somehow different rather than generalize like I did.
I noticed something in your comment about OBL that I'd disagree with you on, so I'm disengaging in this thread before I get in.
It serves no purpose to split hairs over this religo / politico shit when we all want the same result. Peace in Iraq.
Rocket |
Lowflyer
| | Posted on Friday, June 09, 2006 - 08:10 pm: |
|
I'm glad he's dead, but sorry that he didn't die in Abu Graib with panties on his head posing for pictures. |
|
