| Author | Message | ||
     Typeone |
i wrote to the photographer asking if they were OK. its obvious they went down. no response. i've heard that argument before, that its the passengers fault for not having proper gear. screw that. totally irresponsible pilot in my eyes, not every passenger knows how dangerous a fall like this will be. and how much SKIN they are going to loose. unfortunately she found out the hard way. damn, you know those toes were going first. wow. and you know that helmet probably doesn't fit properly judging by the borrowed gloves. (Message edited by typeone on June 05, 2006) | ||
| Lowflyer |
I agree. Blaming the passenger is just plain ignorant. If somebody refuses to wear a seatbelt in my truck, they get the boot, or the truck doesn't move. A passenger is flat not getting on my bike without the gear. | ||
| Outrider |
Besides the obvious, there is another side to this scenario. Quite simply, if you take a look at the rest of the pics on that site, you should note the number of riders doing really stupid things on a PUBLIC HIGHWAY just because the Camera was there. Never forget the first time I saw a camera crew on the Ortega Hwy in So Cal in the late 1990's. The squids were running back and forth all day long at severe lean angles which jeopardized the oncoming traffic as they crossed the line quite often. The other safety hazard was their U-Turns within 1//4 mile on either side of the camera. Lots of near misses and a few spills compliments of the intense bike traffic. Would have been a good day for the Good Sam Club to run a wagon train up and down the Ortega to slow things down, eh?  | ||
| U4euh |
I don't know, HE isn't really dressed any better to be doing that type of riding. He saw the camera, got hyped, crossed the line and washed it! Like someone else said, she probably didn't know any better. I just hope she is not scarred for life, mentally or physically. I'll be the 1st to admit, I am a lot more aggressive by myself, but never with a passenger, that is something to live with for the rest of you life, like I am sure the two in the pictures above will do. OUCH! | ||
| Rafartist |
So, her stupidity is his fault? Just like getting in the car with a drunk driver to me. If you know that person is impaired, shame on you. Any moron knows the proper attire for the proper situation. Lets have some accountability here people. If I were the rider and crashed, I would genuinely be very upset with myself but she should have known what could have happened. And I doubt very seriously that was the first time he did something stupid that day, she could have gotten off before that. And by the way she looks up and waves to the camera in a situation like that she has either ridden like that before or is just plain dumb. Come on. | ||
| Lowflyer |
"So, her stupidity is his fault?" Bingo! I think you got it. The rider is responsible for the bike and the people on the bike. Like it or not, that is where the accountability lies. "Any moron knows the proper attire for the proper situation." I doubt she is a moron, but I also doubt she knows fully what type of injury she is likely to sustain from a low-side. Not knowing what to expect makes it hard to know how to prepare. That doesn't automatically qualify you for moronocrity in my book. She probably hasn't had any safety training, and probably hasn't known anybody to have suffered serious road rash. If he is licensed, he has likely had safety training and knows the proper attire. | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
I guess it all comes down to: Who do you trust? She chose to trust the wrong guy. "c'mon babe! you'll be fine TRUST ME" The only truly innocent here is the poor bike. It can't chose who buys it. | ||
| Mikej |
I think you're all wrong, it's obviously the tire manufacturer's fault. >>>insert sarcasm emoticon here<<< Before the fact they were both unprepared for the fall they apparently had, and he appears to have wandered to the wrong side of the road in a somewhat blind hairpin curve (allowing that I don't know if the roadway was closed or not). After the fact it doesn't matter because hurt is hurt. I'm just curious how bad and if they both walked away from this one. | ||
| Outrider |
Interesting discussion. Sort of reminds me of the statement in the performance accessories section of Buell's website. "YOU ARE A GROWN UP. ACT LIKE ONE." | ||
| Bcordb3 |
who's signature is "I would rather sweat than bleed" Works every time | ||
| Barker |
I was looking the pix of the racing flip-flops , when I saw something. Take a look at right side 3 down is that Jay Leno?  http://www.fastmotofotos.com/mt/2006/06/june_4_2006_1.php | ||
| Whodom |
Besides the obvious, there is another side to this scenario. Quite simply, if you take a look at the rest of the pics on that site, you should note the number of riders doing really stupid things on a PUBLIC HIGHWAY just because the Camera was there. Funny how killboy.com (the photographer at Deal's Gap) seems to have the opposite effect on riders. Sure, plenty of people ride on the edge at the Dragon, but I think people that ride past him know if they screw up, a LOT of people will see it in vivid detail the following Wednesday when killboy updates his pics. He also makes a point to show and call out bone-headed riding (like crossing the centerline) whether it's motorcyclists or cagers. Fastmotofotos could learn a few things from killboy. | ||
| Rafartist |
I still think she is just as much to blame for her injuries. Yeah he created the accident but she put herself on the back of the bike dressed for the beach. | ||
| Eboos |
It's a good thing she didn't go base jumping without the proper gear. I once dated a woman who had some pretty severe bike crash injuries to her right leg (bone grafts and many skin grafts, some successful, some not). As physically traumatic as it was, that was nothing compared to what it did to her mentally. As beautiful as she was, no one was able to convince her. | ||
| Lowflyer |
I reckon the major difference between our opinions is simply that I believe he allowed her to ride on the back of his bike dressed for the beach. Whether she did so knowingly is pretty much irrelevant. This sort of goes back to the seatbelt analogy. If a passenger in your vehicle refuses to wear a seatbelt and you get pulled over (in a state with a seatbelt law), you will get a ticket; not the idiot passenger. Likewise, if that passenger is killed in an accident, theoretically, you could be charged with a crime. | ||
| Typeone |
i heard back from Troy, the owner of that site... "Unfortunately the riders did go down, but they walked away in pretty good shape for not having any gear on. The girl hurt her knee pretty bad, but aside from that they were just a little road rashed." very glad to hear they were basically OK! | ||
| Jersey_thunder |
The rider is responsible for the bike and the people on the bike. that is 100% correct!!! JT | ||
| Skyguy |
Yes that Leno. God I hate him sometimes.................. | ||
| Torch |
thats mullholland this last sunday.saw them at the rock store and thought that cant be good.didnt know they went down,that sucks. | ||
| Chellem |
The rider may be "legally" responsible for the passenger, in this society of spreading blame all over the place. But that don't make it right. I've been a passenger most of my life. Once I hit adulthood, I stopped expecting people to take care of me and started making decisions for myself. I would NOT blame the rider if we went down and I was wearing flip flops. I'd be like, man, that was freaking dumb. Of course, I would never make that decision. Believe me, no one, even first-timers, have any confusion about how much it hurts to fall on a bike. That's the very reason it takes people so long to get on a bike for their first time. She appears to be over 18. She appears to be an adult. They both do. So shouldn't both adults take responsibility for themselves? Or don't we do that anymore? | ||
| Rafartist |
Thank the Lord, someone else has seen the light. We place blame way too much today when we are just as much to blame. This world is way to ready to take legal recourse when we should have gotten our heads out of our butts and paid attention to what was going on around us or what could potentially happen. Someone steps in a pot hole in a parking lot and its the landlords fault?? Watch where you're going. Someone trips on the sidewalk and its the homeowners fault for not taking care of what should be the cities responsibility. Someone comes in your yard and the dog bites them, or better yet a kid taunts a watch dog and sticks its hand threw the fence and the dog bites the kid? Where was the parent. Things have gone the wrong way today. | ||
| Typeone |
i don't see any of those scenarios matching this one too well. i'm all for people taking responsibility and totally agree that we place too much blame elsewhere, but... motorcycling requires A LOT of responsibility from THE RIDER, and part of it is making sure your passenger is #1 educated on the risks involved #2 is geared up for the fall should it occur #3 understands the machine and how to ride as a passenger. to just say, 'ah, screw it, she should have known better with those flip-flops on' after your passenger has slid across the pavement and been potentially scarred for life seems really careless. that scenario could have been avoided all together if the RIDER said 'no'. the RIDER is the parent from your above dog bite scenario. that girl got bit bad, but the parent could have stepped in beforehand. a responsible rider would have told her 'no'. | ||
| Lowflyer |
It's not spreading the blame around. It is assigning the blame to the one person to whom it belongs. This is a very simple concept. The rider is the responsible dude. Period. Regardless of what the passenger was wearing, but in this case apparel happens to be at issue, the passenger's safety is almost entirely the responsibility of the rider/pilot. The passenger's responsibility is to do exactly what the rider tells them to do while on the back of the bike. Beyond that, they have no control over the situation. It's the rider's responsibility to set and strictly enforce the standards for what a passenger may/may not wear and how they behave while on the pillion. People that don't understand this concept and apply that understanding to operating any type of passenger vehicle are lawyer food. Plain and simple. | ||
| Henrik |
I'm with Typeone and Lowflyer on this. I, as the (hopefully) educated rider are aware of the risks and dangers of riding. I can't expect the general public to fully comprehend the extent of those dangers - I've crashed and felt it first hand - most haven't. As such, I feel it's *my* responsibility to make sure my passenger is as safe as possible. That includes gear, instructions and my riding style. Now, that's my opinion and the ethics I operate by. I'm with Raf that society today is to intent on assigning blame. No one will accept that "bad things just happen." For me, this is not such a situation. Henrik | ||
| Skyguy |
Here is a similar situation that IMHO sums up "Personal Responsibility" A few years ago I was guiding a private paragliding trip in the Swiss Alps. My client was a 50 year old AAA personality. He had about 70 hours flying but was not real "gifted". We arrived at a new launch with a very tight schedule to be in the air. We discussed the schedule and he agreed. We had 10 minutes to hike to launch, 5 minutes to setup and 5 minutes to get airborne. If we were not ready in that amount of time we had 8 minutes to gather up our gear and haul butt down the mountain to make it back to the last train out that night. Otherwise face a long night on the mountain with a storm moving in. After 2 minutes of hiking up a very steep hill my client announced that he was "launching here". I told him that was a very bad idea and that if he was lucky and had a very efficient launch he might clear the electric lines from the train. I told him in no uncertain terms that we needed to keep hiking as I did not feel good about the launch. He replied "Look I got 70 hours and I am going to launch here". I told him it was a bad idea but if he was commited to it that he should turn the glider back into the mountain instead of hitting the power lines if needed. He then went on to ignore the schedule we were on. I yelled down the hill to him that it was time to haul ass for the train becasue he was far from ready. He waved me off and decided to continue his setup. Well being on a schedule I launched and yelled good luck as I left. To make a long story short he had to turn the glider back into the hill and broke his shoulder and collarbone. Lucky for him the train conductor saw him laying on the side of the hill stopped and gathered him up. Was it my responsibiltiy to stay with him or his responsibility to listen to his guide? The gal had to know she was not dressed for the ride. She made a choice, albeit a bad one. However it was hers to make. He could have stood his ground and said "No gear no ride" but my guess is that he wanted to get laid................... I rented a VROD in Hawaii last year and cruised the entire island in a t-shirt, no helmet and sneakers. Damm it felt good. Was it stupid? Yes, riding without a helmet is dumb. It was a choice I made fully aware of the potential outcome. PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY!!!!!!!!!!! If we keep protecting stupid people from themselves they will continue to breed. We need to stop diluting the gene pool. | ||
| CJXB |
I'm with Henrik, it would be the rider's responsibility to educate because passengers really might not be aware of the consequences like experienced riders. If so informed then the passenger still doesn't want to wear the right gear, it's each rider's decision, but mine would be "no gear, no ride", because then I'd still feel it was my responsibility. Bottom line for me is if you CARE about the passenger you are hauling, you will insist they are dressed appropriately for a fall, if the guy just wanted to get laid, poor girl !! | ||
| Mikej |
"Was it my responsibiltiy to stay with him or his responsibility to listen to his guide? " Different situation because you were in a guide/client situation, so with that said in answer to your question: it was both your responsibility to stay with the client and the client's responsibility to listen to you. You should have waited for the client to see if he made it or not and to offer help if needed based on your professional experience and knowledge. In my opinion you blew it by launching and leaving your client behind. Have a nice life. Nothing personal, just an observation since you did not end your client/guide relationship before launching thereby throwing all responsibility upon him. Plus, that 10/5/5/8 minute schedule was too tight of a schedule to reasonably adhere to clearly based on your client's abilities, further responsibility upon you for setting that schedule. I'll say nothing more on this subject. | ||
| Lowflyer |
Totally different scenario, Sky. Client had his own gear and flew solo. Your responsibility was to provide sound advice and judgement. His responsibility was to follow your advice and use his own flying skills to avoid injury. Likewise, if the backwarmer was on her own bike, it would be up to her to be prepared. If client was strapped to your chest and you flew him into a hill because he was rushing you and making a giant ass of himself, it's still 100% your fault. Protecting stupid people from themselves is not what this is about. This is about determining who is responsible for what. The pilot is responsible for the passengers like the parent is responsible for the kids. My flight instructor died back in '01. His student at that time flew them into power lines killing them both. Whose fault? FAA says it was the instructor's fault. I agree. Gov. of MO was killed in a plane piloted by his son. Son flew good airplane into the ground. Whose fault? FAA and NTSB says pilot error. I agree again. Idiot jury blamed Cessna and a vacuum pump manufacturer. Incompetent and/or disoriented pilot killed the Gov.; not Cessna or the vacuum pump mfg. The problem is most people are just plain ignorant and lack even basic reasoning skills. What little reasoning skills they might have are generally overcome by their own emotions. They are easily swayed by a nice suit, a warm smile and a sad story. Bottom line; the rider is supposed to tell the passenger what attire is to be worn on his bike. The rider is the one who decides who rides and who does not. Thusly, the rider is to blame if anything goes wrong that he could have otherwise prevented. | ||
| Skyguy |
Mikej, I have to disagree. The client had more than enough skills to make that schedule. As for my leaving? He ended the client guide relationship when he waved me off. He did not have efficient launches but he was more than capable of getting off the hill under his own power within the alloted schedule. This person was also a student of mine and had previously made a bad call test flying (despite my advice) a new wing midday resulting in a crash. He had still not learned. Sometimes in our sport you hope some arrogant pilots get a wakeup call. You hope it does not ruin there life. In all honesty I was hoping that he would get injured just badly enough to take the sport seriously. I know this sounds harsh but I have at least 15 friends that have been killed in this sport. Some people only learn the hard way. | ||
| Mikej |
"Some people only learn the hard way." True enough. |
