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Ryker77
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 09:07 pm: | 
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Roosevelt made those statments before we became a welfare type nation. He would probably not agree with the $$$$$$ and benfits that we give to those who break the law. |
Outrider
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 10:17 pm: |
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Ryker...That paraphrases part of the epistle I wrote, deleted and replaced with Roosevelt's commentary. I know I did the right thing there.
Now, if I can only find the Cesar Chavez info I received a few weeks back that also has been verified, you will see where in as much as he worked his arse off to make things better for the illegal Mexicans working the fields, he stated that continued illegal migration would undermine all he had worked for and was not a good thing.
Now that is one issue you will not see many bring to light these days as mere basic knowledge of Chavez, which is being propagated today in the schools, special interest groups and the press, is a tool used against our Government no matter what they decide.
Now...I don't want to see anyone immigrate to America for the lowest possible jobs. We have enough "citizens" already hear sucking off the system that should have been using those jobs as a starting point to grow from.
However, if I had my choice between illegal aliens from Mexico and the existing welfare culture, I WILL TAKE THE MEXICAN ANY DAY. At least I know they will make something of themselves. Funny how the other group have proven they won't. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 11:03 pm: |
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Geez Mike, why are Lakes Superior and Huron such dogs in the fishery stats?
Surprised you posted that one. Weren't you the one arguing that our middle class is being eroded by too many lower class folks/immigrants? Oops, that graph shows a reduction in the lower and middle classes on account of they are graduating to the upper class.  Good graph. I think it is accurate too.
Your unemployment data makes no sense. Current unemployment rate is 4.7%, which is considered full employment I think.
I'm not sure how to read the following... 
If I read it right it is showing the average increase of hourly wages. Thus the wages on average as adjusted for inflation are not decreasing, they continue to increase, just at a reduced rate.
Would like to see that same graph for more than just the past six years. Still not sure what it means though. Seems a bit deceiving to me in the title especially. It's not showing as it states a "slowdown in hourly wage and salary income", it is showing a "diminishing rate of increase in hourly wage and salary income."
Honesty is important. That engineer would get fired too. 
Plot total federal debt versus GDP. You'll then see that we are far from historic highs. That is a fair and honest way to portray and appraise national debt from an historic perspective.
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Cochise
| | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 07:26 am: |
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I went back to a job I held 4 years earlier. When I left, the job paid almost nine bucks an hour, and when I went back it was over ten bucks an hour. |
Ryker77
| | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 07:27 am: |
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"Surprised you posted that one. Weren't you the one arguing that our middle class is being eroded by too many lower class folks/immigrants? Oops, that graph shows a reduction in the lower and middle classes on account of they are graduating to the upper class. Good graph. I think it is accurate too. "
You and I came from very different backgrounds. I grew up at the lower end of the middle class with hard working blue coller parents. Many of the people I know make less the 50k to 60k per year.
Plus the graph does not show that many people are working longer hours or have two jobs. And many families have both working parents.
When these 12 million illegals get amnesty-it will be the older (my parents) blue collar middle class that will sufer the most. The intruders are not stupid. Once they are legal, do you think they wouldn't rather have a job at wal-mart verse cutting grass. Or drive a diesel truck over carring bricks. You see there are jobs that don't pay enough for an American to do. When the intruders become American they too will not want to do those low payings hard labor jobs. |
Ryker77
| | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 07:34 am: |
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"It's not showing as it states a "slowdown in hourly wage and salary income", it is showing a "diminishing rate of increase in hourly wage and salary income.""
Here is the definition of slowdown.
Roget’s II: The New Thesaurus, Third Edition. 1995.
slowdown
NOUN: The act or process of decreasing: abatement, curtailment, cut, cutback, decrease, decrement, diminishment, diminution, drain, reduction, slash, taper
I agree with Blake on the debt verse GDP. However debt is stupid. No matter how rich a person is debt is a loss. Whats the interest rate of 3 trillion dollars? |
Ryker77
| | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 07:51 am: |
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Chavez’s essential problem was straight out of Econ 101, the law of supply and demand. He needed to limit the supply of labor in order to drive up wages. Just as American Federation of Labor founder Samuel Gompers, himself a Jewish immigrant, was one of the most influential voices calling for the successful immigration-restriction law of 1924, Chavez, during his effectual years, was a ferocious opponent of illegal immigration.
His success stemmed from the long-term decline in the farm labor supply. According to agricultural economist Philip L. Martin of the University of California, Davis, migrant farm workers in the U.S. numbered 2 million in the 1920s. Eisenhower cracked down on Mexican illegal immigrants, shipping one million home in 1954 alone. The famous 1960 “Harvest of Shame” documentary by CBS newsman Edward R. Murrow inspired liberal Democrats in Congress to abolish the bracero guest-worker program in 1964. The supply of migrant workers dropped to about 200,000, most of them American citizens, making unionization and better contracts feasible—as long as what Marx called “the reserve army of the unemployed” could be bottled up south of the border. The next year, Chavez began his storied organizing campaign.
Growers fought back by busing the reserve army up from Mexico. In 1979, Chavez bitterly testified to Congress:
… when the farm workers strike and their strike is successful, the employers go to Mexico and have unlimited, unrestricted use of illegal alien strikebreakers to break the strike. And, for over 30 years, the Immigration and Naturalization Service has looked the other way and assisted in the strikebreaking. I do not remember one single instance in 30 years where the Immigration service has removed strikebreakers. … The employers use professional smugglers to recruit and transport human contraband across the Mexican border for the specific act of strikebreaking…
In 1969, Chavez led a march to the Mexican border to protest illegal immigration. Joining him were Sen. Walter Mondale and Martin Luther King’s successor as head of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, Ralph Abernathy.
The UFW picketed INS offices to demand closure of the border. Chavez also finked on illegal alien scabs to la migra. Columnist Ruben Navarrette Jr. reported in the Arizona Republic, “Cesar Chavez, a labor leader intent on protecting union membership, was as effective a surrogate for the INS as ever existed. Indeed, Chavez and the United Farm Workers Union he headed routinely reported, to the INS, for deportation, suspected illegal immigrants who served as strikebreakers or refused to unionize.”
Then the 1982 Mexican economic collapse sent a flood of illegal immigrants north. Growers that had signed generous contracts with the UFW got out of the business and were replaced by new firms that relied upon subcontractors for cheap workers, no questions asked about their documents. Automation efforts slowed.
The rotten pay and conditions suffered by today’s workers—three laborers died of heat stroke last summer—are a matter of supply and demand. The government can pass regulations, but if there are enough jobseekers on the spot to undercut their fellow workers, laws hardly matter.
Economist Martin has noted, “We have essentially privatized the immigration policy of this country, and left it in the hands of California’s growers.” The benefit to the consumer is minor. Martin notes that about 7 percent of the price paid by shoppers for strawberries goes to the pickers. In return, the public picks up the tab for the workers’ medical care and their children’s schooling. A National Academy of Sciences commission estimated in 1997 that an immigrant without a high-school degree ultimately costs America $100,000 more than he contributes. |
Bomber
| | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 09:10 am: |
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TR was a great visionary, who spoke from the heart, and was often to, er, straighforward to be accepted by all (sounds like Blake, don't it?)
Ryker -- you're background sounds the same as mine, from a socio-economic standpoint -- I, too, have seen many folks "loos ground" in terms of their earning power -- while that is a heartbreaker, it's not the best way measure what gone in the US -- I have a good friend of long standing who desparately wish the return of the days when he drove a pickup in an open pit mine for the 2006 equivalent of $125,000 -- while I absolutely want his happiness, that expectation is, well, not gonna be realized any time soon (his job did NOT go to an immigrant, btw, but, rather, the company was driven outa business due to high costs)
the time period for which you post your fiscal stats have certainly seen a great growth in illegal immgration -- that same time period has also seen the growth of the greedy day trader, and expansion of the US's role as Policeman to the world, the bust of the high tech industry stock value (note bene, not the bust of the industry), and many other things -- while I'm sure that providing social services DOES cost an inordiante sum, it certainly is not the sole cause of the fiscal state of the country (which ain't all the bad, for most folks)
change is not gonna stop, no matter how much some (or all) folks want it to -- I'm thinkin we all got choices -- we can adapt and overcome, or go extinct (like the dinosaurs and by $125 pickup driving buddy)
fully agreed however, that the government's long-term ignoring of immigration verges on criminal -- which, of course, mean that the administration and Congress that successfully addresses it will be heroic
all these problems can likely be laid at the feet of all those "wet" counties, yes?
;-} |
Outrider
| | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 09:51 am: |
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Ryker...Thanks. Your info on Chavez went into much greater detail than the news clip I was referring to. |
Ryker77
| | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 10:10 am: |
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What I found very interesting was that in 1954 we rounded up and sent home 1 million illegals.
IT CAN BE DONE. And the result was IMPROVED condtions for the legal Americans.
The facts are there. Even Chavez agreed. |
Ryker77
| | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 10:16 am: |
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Many of the improvement in manufactoring, farming, and workplace saftey came about AFTER slavery ended. WHY? becuase the employeer could not force work to be done. Thus mechanical machines improved work out put and work place safty improved.
Just yesterday as I have watched about every week during the summer months. A wealthy land developer owns a huge tract of land near my house. It is on a slight slope and a riding lawnmower could not be used. Instead of planting vegation that doesn't need weekly cutting. Instead of buying push mower, bush hog, or wheeled weedeater. He hires 1-2 immigrants to use a weedeater. Takes the guy over 1/2 the day. No ear plugs, no saftey devices. Abuse is what I call it. Nothing more than modern day slave labor. Its sad when its cheaper to hire a day worker than to do the right or safe thing.
(Message edited by ryker77 on April 13, 2006) |
Outrider
| | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 10:24 am: |
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Bomber...I concur with your position as well. In particular, the one about our government's long term passive attitude towards immigration.
Extend that to the issues concerning the imbalance of trade, tariffs, lack of support and monitoring of US corporations and I believe America will once again be strong enough to provide jobs to support it's existing citizens as well as those that come here to improve their lot in life without the handouts from Uncle Sugar. |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 02:38 pm: |
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Ryker,
You are right on the "slowdown" point. My bad. I was wrong. That is an accurate description. Thanks for pointing that out.
Besides virtually everything that Bomber said... <sigh>
I'm not sure what portion of illegals would immediately transition to legal jobs. What would be the effect on the job market for the jobs they are leaving? Whether deported or graduated to "better jobs" the effect is much the same, no? Those currently depending upon the low labor rates of illegals would be forced to offer better wages/benefits, no? I really don't think there are as many folks as averse to hard work as you imagine; nor do I imagine that Walmart is going to suddenly trash its hiring policy of wanting folks with highschool diplomas.
Debt is not stupid. Ever had a mortgage? What is troubling is long term negative cash flow and yes, excessive interest. The federal government doesn't ever suffer the cashflow problem. We need more cash, we can print it, raise taxes, sell stuff. It is entirely inaccurate to look at our federal budget in teh same vien as a household one or even a corporate one. It is a totally different animal.
What we want is a growing economy. As long as growth in our economy outpaces or even matches growth in our debt, we are fine and dandy.
Kinda like how if you recieved a big raise in your wages, you could afford a larger mortgage. Kinda. But the fed can go one step further. When debt (in the form of treasury bonds) comes due, they simply sell more. Ain't that a cool scheme?
Why do folks invest in our treasury bonds? On account of how amazingly our economy performs and how robust and reliable it is. It grows and grows and grows. Even in the face of post dot-com recession and the $1 trillion hit of 9/11 and the expenses of war and all the new homeland security, we are rocking and rolling.
Really, I just don't see that the dred is justified. Legal or not, the poor immigrants ALWAYS take the jobs no one else wants. It is no different now then it has been at any time in American history. Before it was the Irish, then the Italians, then the Peurto Ricans, then the Eatern Block of the former Soviet Union, now it is Mexicans. Ain't no different. Most all of them want to be one of us and live the American dream. Buck up amigo! ![: ]](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/proud.gif) We do agree on all the critical points so we just have a different view of effect I guess. I can live with that. I just hate to see folks like you suffer the negative feelings and such on the issue. I just don't think it is warranted.
As for me personally, not sure how you come to imagine our backgrounds are much different. They aren't.
My grandparents were all country folk farmers and shop workers. Dad was the only one of five siblings to put himself through college. He did so by laying brick and building small cottages up around Lake Pymatuning, PA. Mom worked as a secretary/book-keeper for a local machine shop and at one point for a scrap yard in , PA.
My parents are now at or near 70 years old and continue to work part time. Each of them has worked for as long as I can remember. With his own hands Dad built their simple little retirement home up at Chautauqua Lake, NY back in 1968.
In high school I mowed lawn and later worked at the local ARCO station pumping gas and if I was lucky playing apprenticed grease monkey. I got through college on savings from that mowing lawn and pumping gas. That lasted through freshman year at SMU even with a scholarship and financial aid. Luckily I found a way to finish by working my tail off on offshore oil rigs every other semester. Imagine a college boy having to prove himself to the regulars, a new rig every other semester. It was a GREAT experience! I truly loved the offshore drilling industry. I wish I could have stayed with it.
Anyway, I'm very much rooted in blue collar. I'd rather join the field crew than sit at my desk doing stress analysis most any day.
They never would let me run the crane though.
(Message edited by blake on April 13, 2006) |
Bomber
| | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 02:49 pm: |
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Blake wrote
Besides virtually everything that Bomber said... <sigh>
I'm not sure WHO should be more concerned, buddy -- your family or mine!
(insert big ol smiley here) |
Ryker77
| | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 03:33 pm: |
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"Debt is not stupid. Ever had a mortgage?.. Kinda like how if you recieved a big raise in your wages, you could afford a larger mortgage"
Thats the kind of think that has caused many Amerincans from all class levels to hinder themselves. Yes I have a mortage and I absoulty HATE seeing the monthly statement break down of how much interest I give the bank. Thus I have paid extra every month and have long passed the 1/2 mark.
Nobody can afford to give money away. At least not no body I know. Interest is giving money to the bank.
Looks like we had much of the same background. I hope I didn't offend you. But take some time and look for those same type jobs-- many of the require you to speak spanish. I know of a few local food places and carpet mills that will not hire a non-spanish speaking person. Put what your grandparents, parents, and yourself as a young 25 year old in todays job market. Things would be different.. and not for the good.
"poor immigrants ALWAYS take the jobs no one else wants" no American wants to work for such little benifits. Illegals can work for low wages becuase they get supplements from the govenment. Free food, housing, medical. Take away the freebee's and even the illegals will not be able to work for such low wages.
History has proven that immigrants will work and do dangerous jobs. History has also shown the too many of them hurts the job wages and work place saftey.
I'm not sure what portion of illegals would immediately transition to legal jobs. this is a very valid question and should be answered before the feds give amnesty What would be the effect on the job market for the jobs they are leaving? my guess is that at least 1/3 of those "day labor" jobs will go vacant. Increasing the demand for more illegals. Whether deported or graduated to "better jobs" the effect is much the same, no? Well the illegals would DISPLACE many Amerincans. Not to many people I know can afford to pay the bills without a job. Those currently depending upon the low labor rates of illegals would be forced to offer better wages/benefits, no? If the border is secure then yes. Wages would improve. But only if the border is 100% secure.I really don't think there are as many folks as averse to hard work as you imagine; nor do I imagine that Walmart is going to suddenly trash its hiring policy of wanting folks with highschool diplomas.
not very many people would choose a hot dirty job over a clean air conditioned jobs when the pay is equall. WalMart has allready been busted for subcontracting illegals to clean the stores. And if they LIE and create FAKE id's what would stop them from creating fake high school diplomas.
These questions should be answered by the polticians before they grant amnesty.
Securing the border is something we all agree on. Its something that should be done TODAY. Right now. NO debate. No comprise. Why can't the poltians just pass a bill that is simple. Just a few lines. The border shall be 100% secured by any means necassary.
The other trivial stuff can be debated for years. Heck normal people like us have had this thread for over a week. |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 04:13 pm: |
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Good points. I'm enjoying the debate as much as I am causing Bomber some anxiety.
Heck no, not offended in the least.
Your point previously made about the advancement of farming tech in response to shortage of cheap labor is a very valid point today. Europeans and Aussies use a lot of powered farming/harvesting tech that we haven't yet adopted, on account of it is apparently more cost effective to use migrant labor. The grapes in Cali among other crops were applicable I believe.
Here's and interesting commentary on illegal immigrant activity... in Mexico!...
http://www.city-journal.org/html/eon2006-04-10hm.html |
Bomber
| | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 04:16 pm: |
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Ryker wrote Interest is giving money to the bank.
more like the fee your charged to use someone else's money, ain't it? ;-
agreed, though -- you should minimize that to the extreme -- my last mortgage was a 15 year jobbie, and we've paid extra on it every month -- it's a shame the tax laws do not encourage that sort of behavior, but the money saved certainly does!
and, hey!!!! who you callin normal?
Blake -- not at all anxious -- just remarking at what a swank leftie you're becoming is all
;-}} |
Outrider
| | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 05:12 pm: |
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Blake...Great article but really didn't go into Mexico's immigration policy per their Constitution, in much detail. A quick summary is as follows:
1. Mexico does not allow illegal immigration.
2. Legal immigrants in Mexico are not citizens and will not receive the benefits available to Mexico's citizens.
On the humorous side, this is the reason why there is a splinter group of (primarily) Republicans in California promoting Vincente Fox for US President in 2008.
When you get past the shock and give it some thought it almost makes a little sense.
Heck, now that that huge offshore oilfield was discovered in Mexican waters, I wonder why we just don't buy Mexico. Might as well add Central America to that wish list as well just in case.
Actually, that oil discovery just could be what Fox is using to control Bush's recent position on Illegal Aliens. |
Tramp
| | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 09:31 pm: |
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i think there was a time when it was fine to keep america open.
I think that the capacity of our lifeboat is already exceeded by the number of passengers, and it's time to push off from the world's sinking ship....
close the doors: much like a hooker with a runny nose,
we're
full. |
Cochise
| | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 10:23 pm: |
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Like a blind man at an orgy, we're gonna have to feel our way through. |
Cochise
| | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 10:24 pm: |
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Like a midget at a urinal, we'll have to keep on our toes. |
Skyguy
| | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 12:18 pm: |
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UP here in the San Bernardino Mountains the local illegal immigrants are hired by contractors a lot. For years these guys have undercut what I am willing to work for by five to seven dollars an hour. They have just unionized! They are now demanding $15.00 per hour, an eight hour minimum, lunch and a ride to and from the jobsite!
WTF! Once they are here legal the contractors are going to have to import labor from the Dominican Republic or Hati in order to compete.
I need to survive just a bit longer to get my balloon business going. I am going to have to move it out of Northern Mexico (opps I mean L.A.) casue the Mexicans don't go flying...................... |
Ryker77
| | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 03:08 pm: |
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Skyguy, you could use the ballons to import the illegals across the border. Take there money -- then drop them out..
Just kidding.
--- For real just like I've said and history has proven. Once the illegals become legal they will move up or demand higher wages. Thus MORE illegals will need to come in and feel up the open low paying jobs.
It will never end -- |
Outrider
| | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 04:14 pm: |
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Hmmm...with the exception of the prevailing wind currents, the balloon thing ain't a bad idea.
I used to have my boat moored in the Dana Point Harbor and was repeatedly offered $300 a head just for picking them up 40 miles offshore.
Figured at 6 to 8 per trip, a trip a week would be a nice supplemental income. Just glad I didn't do it when I saw a boat being escorted into the marina with two Coast Guard boats and a helicopter.
Don't know what happened to the couple that owned the boat, but we watched the boat rot to death over the next 2+ years while moored in front of the sheriff's harbor patrol station. |
Ryker77
| | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 10:27 am: |
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Cochise
| | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 10:30 am: |
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Why would a Veterinarian need extra Health Care? |
Ryker77
| | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 05:56 pm: |
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Ohh my gosh.... Let me explain this barny style for you Vets.. is short for veterans IE American service members. You know the people that fought, bleed and died for your rights.
Notice the picture he is using.
Just another example of whats wrong in America. |
Brucelee
| | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 09:18 am: |
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I have emailed the President, my Congressman, Senators and the RNC on this issue.
I have told the RNC they will never get another dime from me if they fold on this issue.
Suggest same from you all! |
Cochise
| | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 02:06 pm: |
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Ohh my gosh.... Let me explain this barny style for you Vets.. is short for veterans IE American service members
Obviously you left your sense of humor in your other pair of pants. You sure told me though   |
Ryker77
| | Posted on Monday, April 17, 2006 - 09:09 am: |
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I threw those pants away.. long time ago. Its good to know that your were just kidding. |
Panic
| | Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 05:56 pm: |
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What effect will a border fence have?
My comments here:
http://ejit-panem.blogspot.com/2006/04/immigration-plan-b.html |
Cowboy
| | Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 07:28 pm: |
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I just noticed today Block Buster has better security than the USA some people can come to USA get welfare and vote with less ID than I have to have to rent a movie. DAMN |
Superbee24
| | Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 07:37 pm: |
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WOW  This thread just won't die will it. 
By the way, I still love my Buell ! |
Lowlife
| | Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 07:48 pm: |
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Panic, that is an interesting read. The idea is elegantly simple. Your arguments are also firmly rooted in reality (especially the last few sentences), which isn't something you often find in the blogsphere. Thanks for sharing. |
Ryker77
| | Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 09:25 am: |
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added my comments to Panics blog.
In short I fully agree with plan B. |
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