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Jackbequick
| | Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 12:01 pm: | 
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"My question is, "Do they infinge on our rights"...
There is no "right to break the law" is there? My feeling is that when you break the law you surrender some rights. So if no use is made of the camera until a law has been broken I'm cool with it being there.
New subject.
Tramp, we have to make this easier for people. It would be much better if you would categorize yourself as a .030%er than as a .03%er.
Us anal retentive machinist types don't have any trouble using uncommonly expressed units of measurement and saying a guy is a "three hundredths of one per cent'er". But mainstream folks will be more comfortable thinking of you as a "thirty thousandths of one per cent'er".
Jack |
Tramp
| | Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 12:51 pm: |
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Thanks. will do.
I have precious little problem with LEO authority.
I tend to keep in mind the fact that the guy who one might cuss out one day for tagging any of us speeding is the same guy who might blow away a bad guy who wants to harm one of our loved ones.
As I've said, I have rarely, very rarely, ever been issued a speeding ticket.
Anyone who's ridden with me knows that that's not for want of trying.
I believe I've had two speeding tickets in the past 25 years, and both were dumped during the pretrial conferencing with the officer.
I haved never given a cop a difficult time, either.
In fact, a cop whom I've never really had anything good to say about tagged me a couple years ago, exceeding 100mph with Z-girl on the back, the next town over.
he let me go after reminding me that i was being an a*sh*le for going that fast, at night, with an innocent passenger on the back, during deer-season rut.
he knows my bike, and would not have even given me a second look had i been by myself.
I was once stopped on 101 between San Jose and Salinas for doing 147 on a brand-new Triumph 4 cyl. 1200 sportbike (belonged to the shop where I service managed). It was Thanksgiving AM, and I was en route to see my grandparents in Big Sur. (I was still north of 156).
the CHP warned me to 'slow it down a bit when you got down below Gilroy', as there was dense fog reported there. We wished each other a happy thanksgiving, and he let me go with only that warning, so as not to hold me up in my haste to help my grandpa start the antipasto.
He could have come off like a rockstar back at 'the office'' with a 147 mph tag, but hye chose to let me go.
I'm appalled at guys whom I know and occasionally ride with, (and who brag about doing 130mph + routinely) who complain about getting tagged.
We know the rules, we gotta accept the consequences.
In the case cited above by m2ns, the GPS evidence could be considered because it was NOT a V&T infraction, but rather a homicide. entirely different set of investigative perameters.
Anyway, when I get pulled over (which is incredibly rare), I am a gentleman, I don't suck up to the officer, and I'm polite.
My stack of over 2 dozen PBA cards from various organizations doesn't hurt, either.
I don't flash them, I merely keep my license under them so I have to shuffle through each and every one, under the officer's eye, until I find my driver's license.
the "us and them" menatility is something that the citizenry perpetrate more than do the officers.
I know "1%ers" whose golf partners (& friends) are openly leo, and I know of many cops whose siblings are "1%ers". There's very little friction between individual cops and people I ride with.
we're all people, first. |
Mikej
| | Posted on Monday, January 02, 2006 - 10:43 am: |
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I'm just sitting here trying to figure out why thumbing through a bunch of these would get me out of a speeding ticket, unless the officer was a bowler:
"Bob's your uncle" from another thread here recently. |
Bcordb3
| | Posted on Monday, January 02, 2006 - 02:03 pm: |
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Rex - You know that both the 101 and the 10 are very deadly highways. It is said that the speed limit is only a suggestion on both.
Lots people hurt or killed on those roads were just driving home/to work minding their own business.
The 10 stands alone, especially in the west valley, I think there are at least 4 speed changes going through Goodyear, Avondale, Phoenix, it tends to be confusing.
I guess my point is the cameras are a good thing. GPS tracking is not.
Just other day I was riding on the 303 (another road with to many crosses on it) and passed a line of 4 cars that were actually going below the speed limit. In order to make a safe pass I had to break the speed limit. If I was being tracked with GPS I would be a guest of Sheriff Joe and his band of merry men.
Couldn't even imagine going before a judge and telling him that I was passing a line driverless Sun City staff cars (Buick's with little old people driving them).
(Message edited by BCordb3 on January 02, 2006) |
Ryker77
| | Posted on Monday, January 02, 2006 - 02:40 pm: |
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and your only allowed to pass one car at a time..
so that would be
speeding ticket 100-200 bucks
illegal passing 80-200 bucks
and possible reckless driving 150-300 bucks
Plus your insurance would increase for three years
PRICELESS
"I guess my point is the cameras are a good thing. GPS tracking is not."
This is some peoples mindset now. As time goes on and a few years pass it will change to "I guess GPS is ok".
My main issue is that these "saftey" items are not for safety but to generate revenue--- just another form of taxation. |
Dbird29
| | Posted on Monday, January 02, 2006 - 03:06 pm: |
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Come on folks! You know it's for the Children's sake .
 |
Tramp
| | Posted on Monday, January 02, 2006 - 03:26 pm: |
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in california, it's legal to pass more than one car at a time. |
Bcordb3
| | Posted on Monday, January 02, 2006 - 06:07 pm: |
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and your only allowed to pass one car at a time..
Ryker
I don't think that is the case in Arizona. I am going to research that to be sure.
I think your fine estimate were a bit low.
I don't understand what you are saying about mind set regarding GPS. |
Ryker77
| | Posted on Monday, January 02, 2006 - 09:00 pm: |
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most laws are given to the people in small doses. They will take about GPS for some time. The public is not like it. As time passes the public will just accept it. GPS is allready used in big trucks.
I don't like it. But thats just the way it is. GPS will just be another method to tax the people. Either for speeding or for a mileage rate per year driven. |
Mikej
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2006 - 08:37 am: |
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Technically you're not allowed to legally speed when passing other vehicles. If the speed limit is 65mph and the vehicle in front of you is going 58mph and if you wish to pass them then you are not allowed to exceed 65mph in doing so, technically speaking.
Carry on.... |
Mikej
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2006 - 08:42 am: |
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"GPS is already used in big trucks. "
How do you like that TV commercial showing a lady sitting at a desk blocking a roadway as two truck drivers pull up in a rig and she informs them that they are not where they're supposed to be, or words to that effect. |
Loki
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2006 - 09:12 am: |
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The GPS/Sattelite systems in the trucks were installed for other reasons. Just like those little mile-o-meters you see on the axles.
Wanna throw the OnStar system into the mix?
How about LoJack?
-There are states that specifically allow(on the books) one to go over(reasonable #) the posted limit to make a safe pass. |
Loki
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2006 - 09:27 am: |
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I like the idea of stop light cams. Just that there are other laws that make them a moot point. To some extent. Take a new arkansas law, which allows a motorcyclist to proceed thru a red light. IF it does not cycle and IF the intersection is clear.
Speed enforcement? Ask Mr. Rocket what happens to those boxes on the isle. |
Bomber
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2006 - 09:45 am: |
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seems to me that, on a philosophical level (mebbe the counting angles on the head of a pin level) the cameras are just fine so long as they don't record the deeds of non-evil doers -- if they are recording everyone's actions, they may be skirting illegal search and seizure --
on the realistic level, it's just an extension of the LEO on the side of the road with a radar gun, tracking all and sundry (despite what he/she would likely say at the trial, if any) . . . |
Brucelee
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2006 - 10:15 am: |
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The red light cameras in CA have raised tons of money. I have not seen any data that they have reduced accidents at intersections, which was SUPPOSED to be the reason for their introduction. |
Ryker77
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2006 - 10:15 am: |
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"The GPS/Sattelite systems in the trucks were installed for other reasons. Just like those little mile-o-meters you see on the axles. "
I beg to differ. Insurance companies cut trucker drivers a discount if they have them. The driving company can recall this info:
top speed.
average speed.
times breaks were applied.
times the truck was too close to another object.
if in an accident you push two buttons and all info is stored.
My dad drives a truck with those monitors. His trip take him through town and up some mountain roads--- 3 times a day. They pulled the average speed for the company- 70mph. And this is up through the GA mountains!
----
I myslef would like to have a personal GPS recorder system in my car to include a short video recorder. I very seldom do something illegal or dangerous. So If I am ever in an accident -- chances are it won't be my fault. I'd sure like proof of the accident in case my injuries require a law suit. |
Bandm
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2006 - 11:27 am: |
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Instead of standing around using the same old channels to affect change or whining about what a violation of civil liberties it is that Austrian police can install closed-circuit surveillance cameras in public spaces without a court order, activist group Quintessenz took it to the streets to fight back, both high tech and low. Before moving on to more advanced methods, Quintessenz's early efforts merely blinded the cameras with lasers and balloons, but they've since upgraded to techniques that scramble camera signals and even intercept their video feeds and automatically place Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap-style black stripes over peoples' eyes. Way to subvert, boys and girls -- ain't no fire worth stoking like the Big Brother civil liberties violations fire.
http://www.engadget.com/2005/12/29/subverting-austrian-government-spycams/
Follow the read link for the whole story |
Jlnance
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2006 - 01:14 pm: |
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seems to me that, on a philosophical level
Ah, the philosophical level. I enjoy this kind of discussion.
My $.02. We all (well most of us) know that we can't live in a lawless society. At the same time everyone breaks the law, so if they were effectivly enforced, society also could not function.
The only thing that make it all work is that enforcing the law is expensive, and we can't afford to prosecute everyone. So things are prioritized, and you have to be annoying/hurting someone else before you are important enough to prosecute. This works reasonably well, though certainly not perfectly.
The thing about cameras is they are very cheap, and getting cheaper all the time. It really will be feasible to put one on every street corner, or in a satalite. This upsets the balance that allows things to work. |
Tramp
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2006 - 02:18 pm: |
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typically, the folks who claim to espouse the concept of a lawless society are the ones who'll be devoured by their contemporaries.
i remember a punk at my college, always wore an anarchy t-shirt, told everyone he was an ananarchist.
he motherf***ered me once, so i dropped him and took his wallet, and told him he could have it back when he either called the cops and thereby
denounced anarchy, or stopped by my place and apologized for being rude.
I know it sounds harsh, but purported anarchists, in a society where citizens pays taxes to protect all, should never "MF" decent folksesses.
he chose the latter, and was a decent guy from then on.
I suggested he make a small donation to a local PBA, someday. |
Tramp
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2006 - 02:20 pm: |
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another thing i admire about 'outlaw motorcycle clubs'is that, while they operate outside many laws, they bring in many of their own, so technically, the average 'outlaw motorcyle club member' has a lifestyle less anarchic than that of john Q. citizen. |
Bomber
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2006 - 02:30 pm: |
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while I've had little contact with anarchists, I HAVE known of a number of socialists (who all seemed to be waiting for a check fomr daddy or the gubmint alla time) -- anyone who won't walk it like they talk it is deserving of schooling similar to Tramps, I'm thinkin |
Brucelee
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2006 - 02:35 pm: |
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"he motherf***ered me once, so i dropped him and took his wallet,"
Had he been a true anarchist, he would have fought back.
Wussy!
Way to go Tramp. |
Tramp
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2006 - 02:44 pm: |
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Knew I liked you. |
Road_thing
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2006 - 04:50 pm: |
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Trampster: You've got mail, at the "Blaustein" account.
rt |
Bcordb3
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2006 - 04:58 pm: |
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"he motherf***ered me once, so i dropped him and took his wallet,"
Tramp - I wish I had done that a couple of times, once just recently. I will put that in my memory bank and certainly use it. |
Tramp
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 04, 2006 - 08:56 am: |
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wellll..... be careful...assault and larceny aren't really wise crimes to commit, esp. in concert, as it ups the ante on the larceny charge...it effectively become a mugging.
I was a drunk college student at the time who wanted to illustrate the hypocrisy of this student's stance.
i think that today, i'd possibly take a higher road.
you know- taunt him into swinging first |
Brucelee
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 04, 2006 - 09:16 am: |
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It is important to pick your spots.
Revenge is a dish best served COLD.
Man, there is a saying for everything! |
P0p0k0pf
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 04, 2006 - 09:18 am: |
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Red-light cameras don't infringe upon peoples' rights. If you don't want your picture taken, don't run the light. I can't stand the "righteous lawbreaker" stance... it's ridiculous! If driving is a priviledge, and you're running a red light, how can your rights be infringed? Bull S#it! |
Bomber
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 04, 2006 - 09:47 am: |
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Pop -- while I agree that th4e rightous lawbreaker thing is a lot like Trmap's anarchist fella, sittin at a light mindin yer own business, waiting for the green, and being taped by an arm of the gubmint does get a bit close to illegal search and seizure . . . like I said, if the camera activates when a bad person does something wrong, no foul -- if it's on alla time, mebbe a foul
fine distinction, granted, but possibly important |
Ryker77
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 04, 2006 - 11:49 am: |
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"If driving is a priviledge, and you're running a red light, how can your rights be infringed"
when the local government works the traffic light in order to INCREASE tickets given so that the revenue will increase.
when said cameras CAUSE more wrecks due to people stopping at yellow lights at a quick pace.
when the sole purpose of the camera is not to enforce a law, or to create a safer street. But to simply get revenue flow. |
P0p0k0pf
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 04, 2006 - 05:27 pm: |
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I work at a BMW car dealership in Atlanta and we have a large loaner car fleet. Combine that with operational red-light cameras and tollbooth cameras around town, and we get a lot of fines through the mail because a lot of our customers think they can run through either in a car that isn't theirs and get away with it. Each document comes with a picture of the vehicle committing the offense, the time, and other traffic info. The cameras activate when a vehicle is sensed running a red light or toll booth. They aren't on all the time to record other things... Regardless, if a public picture of one's car is too disconcerting, why leave the house in the first place?
I agree with your specific example Ryker. If the gov't was found to be using such unscrupulous methods, I'd wanna see heads roll as much as anyone. However, that assumes that all red light cameras are being abused in such a way. My point refers to proper use of such a device.
Yellow light timing, when done properly, is specific to each intersection based on road speed limit and conditions. If someone stops in such a way as to cause an accident, it ain't the camera's fault... someone was speeding, not aware, or tailgating.
Now, do these things offend people because rights are under attack, or because you may not get away with doing something wrong? Not too many people will admit the latter... |
Ryker77
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 04, 2006 - 05:55 pm: |
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A brand new, exhaustive study of all seven Virginia red light camera programs shows an overall increase} in injury accidents has occurred where the devices are installed. The study was performed by The Virginia Transportation Research Council at the request of the state transportation secretary.
This study agrees with long-term findings in Australia and North Carolina. |
Oldog
| | Posted on Thursday, January 05, 2006 - 12:28 am: |
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I am good with the cameras I wish that they looped 1 hour video, so in the event of accident in a intersection, a record could be saved.
Here in Wilmington NC the red light photos are shown on the 11:00 pm news as well, ( drivers are not visible ) In my mind to be admissable the photo should show the driver, tag/car, and light, as it is done in Germany, it is considered absolute proof,
some other cool autobahn trivia
they use a camera and ref marks on the autobahn to catch tail gaters,
of course a licence costs
upwards of 1200$ for a person, and driving is taught 1v1 even with areas with NO speed limit
the German stats are better than US interms of % fatals per 1000 accidents,
some of the leos ride full dress beamers with multiple cameras and play back gear in the bags
no discussions there and the leo decides the fines.
fines are scarry too [ one was said to be 20,000$ us.]
love the discovery chanel.. |
Ryker77
| | Posted on Thursday, January 05, 2006 - 11:02 am: |
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German cars also are about 80% equiped with traction and stabilty control compared to USA that is less than 5%.
I've owned an Audi TT with traction and stabilty control. Very very nice. |
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