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Mikej
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 08:39 am: | 
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Thanks Sean, could be fun to shop for this winter. |
Xlcr
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 02:48 pm: |
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It's not just price, I was going to buy a towershaft 900SS back in the late '70s, but the fact the nearest dealer was 500 miles away and the thought of hassling with the valve adjustment led me to buy my Cafe Racer instead. 28 years later, it's very clear that I made the right decision. I've never had to wait or pay top dollar for parts, even with solid lifters valve adjustment takes 15 minutes and doesn't even require a gapper, and 28 years later, my bike is every bit as rare and valuable as a towershaft Ducati would be.
I strongly question if I would even have been able to keep the Ducati running regularly. I may have ended up like the guy in town with the beautiful 900 Superlight that never leaves the garage. I bought a bike to ride.
And now, 28 years later, faced with the same choices, I will buy the Buell Ss, though I'm really attracted to the new Sport Classic GT. It still makes more sense. The nearest Ducati dealer is still 500 miles away, parts are still pricey and hard to come by, and the maintenance requirement gap between the two bikes is now much larger, with the Buell requiring almost nothing in comparison.
Here in the US at least, the Buell just makes a lot more sense, period. What matters is not a hypothetical profit margin that means nothing to a prospective customer, what matters is what it costs to buy and run, and talk all you want, the Buell blows almost any Ducati out of the water in that field.
As far as your opinions on a subject that no one but you seems interested in, you have merely been repeating yourself for the last five or six posts, and as far as I can see, you are now playing that old and childish are too! am not! game over and over again, trying to outlast Court,and you are verging on the point of looking like nothing but another troll.
I looked all over on the smilie board, and couldn't find the one of a couple of smilies beating a dead horse.
Shame, because if any thread deserves it, this one does. |
Glitch
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 03:37 pm: |
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Rocketman
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 04:14 pm: |
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The fact is Xl, as much as you say you like the Ducati brand, you say the Buell is a better purchase for all the practical reasons, but the reason you seem most fixed on is PATRIOTISM, which in my book has little to do with any motorcycle I own.
I don't know how to tell you this but today I bought a Russian motorcycle!
Rocket |
Xlcr
| | Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 01:53 pm: |
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Funny, I certainly don't recall mentioning patriotism, nothing like putting words in someone's mouth! Anyway, Buells have few American parts other than the engine, and I don't really mind. I think you are just running out of arguments.
It's actually pure practicality. I live 200 miles from Sturgis, Harley parts and good Harley mechanics are everywhere around here, and even rare parts are for the most part a J&P catalog order and a few days away. Many standard Ironhead parts will fit on the bike, and they are still common, in spite of being out of production for 20 years. In fact, Knuckleheads are still common here, in spite of being out of production for 58 years! Contrast this with our sole local Ducati owner, who is afraid to take it out of the garage, for fear of something irreplaceable getting hurt.
In fact, things like headlights and other light bulbs, nuts and bolts, spark plugs, bearings, gas caps, and various electrical odds and ends can be had at the local auto parts store. Try that with a Ducati, or even a Japanese bike!
In truth I've always been strongly attracted to Euro bikes, and I rode a Triumph for many years. After going to Daytona in '76, riding on a 750SS, and watching Cook Neilson come in third in the Superbike race on one, I really wanted an SS. And if I had lived in someplace like Southern California I would probably own one now, but the Euros have just never gotten their dealership thing together. It's a very sad thing that, 28 years later, I still have the choice of going 500 miles to Missoula or 500 miles to Denver to find a dealer. You would think in 28 years they could have improved on that situation. The Italians build desirable motorcycles, but they just don't seem to know how to run a business. Until they do, they will only ever be a choice for the well-heeled or fortunately situated. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 07:35 pm: |
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I've never bought a bike for practical reasons. I've never had a reason to. I own my bikes because I like them. Even if I lived in darkest Africa I'm pretty certain a Ducati part is only a phone call away. It's a matter of making the effort.
I'd also wager you there's many a competent mechanic living in the wilds of Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Vietnam or similar, who's never cast eyes upon a workshop manual or tool, yet they could repair / rebuild / restore any Ducati ever made. Why it should be a problem finding a competent Ducati mechanic in the US, I can't figure? Who needs a main dealer anyway?
Ducati's share several lighting components with Buell.
My experience with Buell has been a rather unreliable one, not counting the fancy motor that went wrong after the Buell tech f**ked it, but just the more simple things.......
Indicator relays, countless batteries, front brake rotor carrier, front brake rotor bobbins, HT leads (wet weather poor), front cylinder head casting broke, several muffler mounts broke, three Race Kit headers cracked, two Race Kit mufflers shook to pieces, steering head bearings worn out twice, both fork seals leaked, headlight flash switch broken, horn weak, primary chain tensioner broke in half, splines on driveshaft wore, paint peeled on front hugger, wires unstuck on rear hugger (tyre wore through them as a result), clutch cable snapped, fuel tank gel coat cracking, seat cover worn through at front edge, front brake light switch.
S1W owned for 7 + years from new. Full service history. 15000 miles from new.
The big bits? Two rear cylinders holed pistons. First S1W returned and money back after 4 weeks of ownership. The list above is the second S1W.
My 1995 916. 2nd year of production, so the unreliable one allegedly. I'm the third owner. I've thrashed it. That's all it's good for really  , for 5 or 6 thousand miles. I've serviced it thoroughly once. Put a new battery on it this past summer. One problem with the rear cushdrive / hub unit that I repaired using a lathe and a washer I turned up on the lathe. Ducati fixed this problem on all later models with a redesign. Mine got overlooked. That's it. Not even a bulb blown. 12 years old, 3 owners and 22000 miles later and she's still working perfect in every aspect.
It makes sense to own a Buell if you live in the States. You're never too far from someone who can fix them, and you'll need them.
As for me, I'm hopefully past caring about mine these days. If it goes wrong I just fix it. It's become part of the furniture now. It also helps to showcase my talents, and man has a bike ever needed them!
Rocket
(Message edited by rocketman on December 15, 2005) |
Crusty
| | Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 08:36 pm: |
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My 1995 916. 2nd year of production, so the unreliable one allegedly. I'm the third owner. I've thrashed it. That's all it's good for really , for 5 or 6 thousand miles.
I put 60,000 MILES (not kilometers) on my '98 S3-T in two years, and was unhappy because it wasn't as reliable as I wanted it to be. You're bragging that a Duck is reliable because you've managed to ride it an average of 500 miles a YEAR? I don't believe that it's possible to put 60,000 miles on a Duck that quickly without Catastrophic consequences. After I traded the S3 in, the man who bought it to build a drag bike told me that he didn't even need to bore the cylinders, they were still in spec. I never had any trouble whatsoever with the motor, other than rocker box gaskets.
I feel guilty that I've only managed to put 55,000 miles on my 2000 M2 in five years (I got re-married and don't have as much time to ride)
As far as Italian parts availability, some day I'll tell you the story of why my Moto Guzzi spent a month in Minneapolis while I rode a Greyhound Bus to Louisville, KY so I'd be back to work on time. If you want to praise a Duck for its power output, styling or other virtues, go right ahead. But when you try to tell me about reliability or ease in obtaining parts, you're blowing smoke.
(Message edited by Crusty on December 15, 2005)
(Message edited by Crusty on December 15, 2005) |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 09:38 pm: |
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Crusty, I'm not bragging about anything. I'm merely stating my Buell experience against my Ducati one in direct response to XL's comments about Ducati reliability and parts availability. Something you seem to share with him it seems.
To be clear, I've not ridden the 916 this year except for Easter Monday when she got a good 150 odd mile thrashing up and down dale. Those 5 or 6K miles I've put on her consistently in two summers months. Yes it's true my friend who I got her from had bought it when she was a year old with about 3K on her. He babied her for all of the time he owned her. That in itself is a testament to how well she's lasted considering the different attitudes to mine and my friends riding styles. That is to say, if she was going to break you'd think after years of considerate use that my introducing her to some 5 or 6 thousand miles of harder use might bring out some inherent floors in the product as she aged. That has not been the case.
This leads me back to my original point from some days ago. I'd wager the failures I've seen in my tube frame Buell are a result of lower quality / budget parts used in the S1W's construction. I'd further wager the Ducati is of far higher quality but her reputation for unreliability is founded upon the more extreme environment many riders might place a Ducati in. On top of that, I'd say your tube frame Buell's are reliable for you because you've never given them a hard life like I have mine. The proof lies in those bores you're so proud of. Try thrashing your tube framers and I'll bet you don't see 60000 miles without serious problems. It's also the reason Buell build XB's now. It's also the reason I was curious about the profit margin discussion, but we've dropped that now at Blake's request, sadly.
As for parts supply, I fail to see how anyone can be waiting for any part for any bike. Somewhere that part will be on a shelf. I bought most of my Buell rebuild parts from the States. Some private and some through dealers. In the case of a new S&S rod kit as one example, I rang S&S to find out if they had a dealer in a part of Ca a friend was visiting. They did and they gave me the dealers phone number. A call to the dealer and a simple explanation of my needs and requirements had that dealer order me the parts from S&S on the strength of that phone call. 3 weeks later my friend walked through the S&S dealers door in Ca and collected for cash, the rod kit that no one I could find had in stock in the UK. That little transaction saved me a fortune too. Nothing for anything is unobtainable. Especially a recent model Ducati. Pick up the phone. Use a credit card. Be prepared to broaden your parts hunt horizons and you will enjoy the experience. In fact, I found the whole process of doing so on several occasions a more organic experience.
Rocket |
Buellgirlie
| | Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 10:32 pm: |
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a moment of lightheartedness...
i have a harley (2 actually, a 1998 and 2006)
i have a buell (XB9SL)
i have a ducati (900SS/SP)
i love them all.
ain't life grand? 
D |
Buellfighter
| | Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 10:50 pm: |
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Buellgirlie...will you marry me...ooops,did I say that out loud! Sorry! |
Xlcr
| | Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 02:47 pm: |
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Jesus! I've ridden my Cafe Racer for 28 years. AMF Ironheads have the rep of being some of the most unreliable bikes ever made, and I haven't had as much trouble with it as you've had with your bikes.
And then there is the matter of mechanical skill and inclination. Harley motors are about as complicated as two Briggs & Strattons put together. I'm not a master mechanic, yet the Ironhead is so simple I can handle almost anything that happens to it. I would not have the same faith with a Duck.
And finally there is cost. I'm living on around $9,500 a year, and raising two kids on it. To me, cheap flea market parts are an absolute necessity to keep a bike running. I'll have to sell my CR to buy new, and expect to get enough to pay for most of it, or it won't be possible. I also expect to get great reliability out of an XB. I have to, because about all I'll be able to afford is tires.
Like most Buell Owning Haters(TM), you are talking about tubers, and XBs are a whole different ball game. On the other hand, I ride with three guys with tubers, all of whom have a lot of miles and have had no trouble with them. Funny, I HAVE NEVER MET A PERSON WITH A 'PROBLEM' BUELL IN PERSON.
Odd, isn't it? |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 01:11 am: |
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I don't think Jesus cares much about cafe racers or this discussion forum. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 07:47 am: |
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XL, I had a 73 Iron Head once upon a time. You know the one. The first Sportster with the disc brake front. That banana caliper was a lot of fun. Was she reliable? For her time, yeah she was, to a point. Constant maintenance was the key. I really liked that Harley. It had the 'P' grind cams and performed pretty well for and old heavyweight. Looked great too with the factory banana seat and high bars. It mangled its transmission and seriously cracked both crankcases. That was a tough pill to swallow. Funny but the same dam thing happened to a 4 speed Evo Sporty I owned too, except that one only managed to punch a hole in the cases. I liked that Harley a lot too.
If you've never worked on a Ducati motor, what makes you think it's anymore difficult to do so than working on a HD / Buell motor? You I suspect, like most everyone else, base that assumption upon a reputation stemmed from the complexity of setting up a bevel drive Desmo. Something I too have only read about. Funny how old rumours die hard as the say. I can tell you, maintaining a modern Ducati is no more or no less complex than most anything mechanical. If you're mechanically skilled enough to fix a Buell motor you're just as capable of fixing a Ducati motor, would be my conclusion.
As for cost, I can see how Ducati motor parts / internals / whatever might be pricier than those of Buell motors but I think you'll find most Ducati problems are not from serious motor failure. Their sometime bad reputation is based on smaller things like faulty regulators on the early 916's, and those cush drive problems I mentioned. Fueling problems have been known, as have electrical gremlins, but overall most Ducati problems are not (bike) life threatening. It's also most unusual that one could find a Ducati that would be constantly plagued with one problem after another. This for me was Buell's worst downfall with the Tube Frame models. One could easily end up with a Monday morning or Friday afternoon bike. Whether the same applies to the XB's I have little idea, but I'm sure the reliability / quality is much improved over any Tuber, which is a great thing. In order to achieve spending less on maintaining any motorcycle you first need to be in possession of a fairly reliable one, would be the conclusion to the situation then. I don't see Ducati or Buell having a problem here, but I still maintain the Ducati is of higher quality in components and build.
I'm not a Buell Owning Hater (TM) either, but like anything that crosses my path, I don't have a problem telling it like it is. I have met quite a few Buell owners over the years who've enjoyed serious problems with the brand. I've also met Ducati owners who simply couldn't live with them for varying reasons.
Nothing odd about that. Every brand has its problems, just that many of them could be avoided.
Rocket |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 07:52 am: |
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Blake, I understand why you had a problem with the 'Nebraska' thread, but what's wrong with this one?
Lots of us Buell owners own Ducati's too. It's also, perhaps along with BMW, the top two most favoured brands that Buell owners would also own given the opportunity.
Please clarify what's wrong with this thread?
Rocket |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 08:23 am: |
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Jesus certainly does care about cafe racers... After all, he gave King David a nice piped Bonneville!
"...and David's triumph was heard throughout the land!" |
Grndskpr
| | Posted on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 09:15 am: |
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Just an observation:
AMF Ironheads have the rep of being some of the most unreliable bikes ever made, and I haven't had as much trouble with it as you've had with your bikes.
In your profile you state the XLCR has been rebuilt twice in 28000 miles, i call that unrealiable as hell, and dont care how easy it is to work on, i am not going to rebuild a bike in that few a miles and be happy(if it were the same for my Buells i would have rebuilt 2 engines twice so far with a third one about due)
BUt everybody is different, i like my BUells, i liked my Ducati, i like my Kawi
I dont like it when someone disccuses how hard something is, or how unreliable something is when they have never owned it
Just an FYI
R |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 01:23 pm: |
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Rocket,
You no read good. Me say "forum" not "thread".
Bill,
Good one. LOL. |
Xlcr
| | Posted on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 02:41 pm: |
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But the first one of those was just a matter of pulling the heads and barrels, slipping on a fresh pair of rings, and running a hone through the barrels. It didn't take long, and all it cost was the price of the rings and gaskets. The problem was the cheap cast iron rings AMF used to specify. The second time was more serious. Two years ago it finally holed a piston. But still, that was just a top end job. The bottom has still never been touched. You do have to realize that age alone causes failures, no matter what the mileage. |
Choptop
| | Posted on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 03:03 pm: |
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28000 miles in 28 years? and two rebuilds?
wow....
no wonder the 3 Buell owners you know dont have any problems with their bikes. If they ride as much as you do it will take them 15 years to get to the point where thier Tubes start to run into problems.
wow.... |
Xlcr
| | Posted on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 06:07 pm: |
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One of them went to three major AMA events the year before last, with two of them being over 1000 miles away, on his X1, stock seat and all. Another went with him to Colorado. The third friend that has one hasn't ridden it much since he rode it into a stone wall. The other two ride theirs less now, as one purchased a V-Rod and the other a KTM Adventure. However, they haven't sold their tubers. No one I know personally has an XB.
I am lucky to have people willing to borrow their extra bikes to me for the few long rides I've had the time to do in recent years. For 20 years I was touring with various bands, in and out of the country, and my bike mostly sat in a garage. I did manage to ride it a little every year, but sometimes only a few miles. Most of the miles on it were either in the first few years of ownership or in the last few years.
Now, in my lazy old age, I feel the bike is too uncomfortable and requires too much constant maintainance for me to want to use it for long trips, which is exactly why I'm trying to put together the cash to get a Lightning Long. I have taken it to Sturgis several times in the last few years, but that's only 200 miles from here. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 10:43 pm: |
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As ridiculous as it sounds I personally don't measure reliability by yardsticks such as counting top end or full motor rebuilds. Hell, if we were talking about a 20 year old Honda 50 running around Chad or Niger on a daily basis such things would be mere pit stops in a very very long life span.
Reliability is measured in my book by how many times the machine's managed to pissmeoff, big or small, when for a few pounds, lira, yen or dollars more spent at the manufacturing process, all pissmeoffs could have been avoided.
The price of a Japanese superbike, I'd never expect it to break down.
The price of an Italian superbike, I can't believe they don't break down more often.
The price of American bikes, it should be against the law for them to break down.
Rocket |
Brucelee
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 09:57 am: |
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The price of British bikes ......... |
Xlcr
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 06:13 pm: |
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I paid $2700 for mine brand new. So what's the problem? |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 02:58 am: |
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The harsh reality of trying to compete in the sport bike market...
from www.roadracingworld.com...
quote:Proton Dumps Majority Share In MV Agusta, Losing About $82 Million In The Process
Dec 28, 2005
Copyright 2005, Roadracing World Publishing, Inc.
The 2006 MV Agusta Brutale 910.
Photo courtesy of MV Agusta.
Malaysian automobile manufacturer Proton sold its 57.57% share of Italian motorcycle manufacturer MV Agusta to Italian investment firm GEVI S.p.A. for the “symbolic” sum of one Euro (about $1.19) yesterday, December 27, according to reports from The Financial Times, appearing on MSNBC.com, and AFP, appearing on Yahoo News.
According to the reports, Proton bought controlling interest in bankrupt MV Agusta last December for the price of $82.8 million in hopes of getting into the motorcycle manufacturing business but instead has now essentially given its share to GEVI, which will assume MV Agusta’s debt (about $126 million) and its “working capital requirements” (about $38 million).
The sale comes as Proton suffered a $40 million loss in the second financial quarter of 2005, where it had posted a profit of $52 million during the same period of 2004. Much of that negative turnaround is attributed to the debt of MV Agusta.
Proton also appointed a new management team in late November, removing the executives who were in charge during the acquisition of MV Agusta.
Proton will now focus its corporate efforts on renewing its falling automobile market share in Malaysia, according to the reports.
MV Agusta makes and sells motorcycles under the brands MV Agusta, Cagiva and Husqvarna.
Read more here…
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20051227/bs_afp/malaysiaitalyautoprotongevi_05122708 0426
and here…
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10611755/
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