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Jon
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 23, 2005 - 01:28 pm: | 
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Rocketsprink,
If you look closer you'll see no one is "bashing" Ducati. There is no hate from this group. |
Rocketsprink
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 23, 2005 - 03:44 pm: |
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Jon,
I beg to differ. I think if you start from the beginning you'll see I'm correct. As I said, I think they're two totally different bikes and to try and compare them doesn't make sense to me. I love my Buell. But everyone saying that everything else out there is a copy from Buell? Come on now. That's just stupid. Buell is pretty new as compared to other companies, so if anything, they're copying from others. But I know that's not the case either. There are only so many was to build a bike. I believe they ALL "borrow" a little from each other. As far as Ducati and their financial problems, I doubt very much they'll be going anywhere soon. |
Jon
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 23, 2005 - 05:38 pm: |
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Your post that I replied to was regarding hate and bashing, which is not found in this thread.
And nobody doens't know all manufacturers borrow the best concepts from each other as far as patent will allow them. Opinions, not hate. |
Xlcr
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 23, 2005 - 05:55 pm: |
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No, they aren't going anywhere. Someone will buy them eventually, just as someone bought Aprilia and Cagiva when they raced themselves into bankruptcy. All very nice to win races, but the Italians always seem to be more concerned with that than actually selling motorcycles. The problem with selling Ducati is that TP wants to make a big profit in order to make the whole exercise worth their trouble, and no one wants it bad enough to pay top dollar. Aprilia and Cagiva, on the other hand, went for fire sale prices because they were bankrupt and desperate.
Then there is Benelli, which just sold out to the Chinese. If enough time goes by, TP may become desperate enough themselves to do the same. Maybe that's what they need, a low-priced Chinese built line to create movement on the showroom floors. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 23, 2005 - 09:14 pm: |
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Xlcr, you're implying stuff that simply isn't fact.
I asked Court recently what he knew of about a British banking company showing an interest in buying Ducati from TPG, which was reported in MCN UK. If what Court knows about Ducati's financial state of affairs is as he says in his own words "pretty much" based on an article in DEALER NEWS several months ago, I now know why he didn't respond to my question. Don't believe everything you read.
Then you speak very generally of Italian motorcycle companies racing themselves into bankruptcy, sighting Aprilia and Cagiva as two of them. Last time I looked these two companies were placed in some monetary pickle because of investment bankers demanding money from them when the Italian economy hit trouble. Their hick-ups had little to do with motorcycles. These two brands are still family members of the worlds largest motorcycle producers.
As for Benelli, they just didn't sell out to the Chinese. In fact, early this year the British TVR car company signed an intention to buy Benelli for more than £50 million, but it was TVR's intention to move production to Blackpool, England in two years time that met with fierce opposition from Italian workers union's which eventually led to the Chinese buy out. The Chinese buy out keeps Benelli on home turf, securing jobs, and the paltry £5 million the Chinese paid is also backed up by a further £53 million investment fund they are paying to secure Benelli's future. Not really a knock down fire sale.
For Ducati, you're right about the sales fall off but that's because the 999 didn't please compared to the 916 range it replaced. Time has passed and the trend now shows that the 999 / 749 is every bit the replacement 916 it was meant to be and sales are on the up right across the model range, and they'll continue to be so. The future is bright for Ducati.
Hope this helps.
Rocket |
Oldog
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 23, 2005 - 10:07 pm: |
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I red a piece somewhere about Ducati, One comment that sticks out was the idea that Ducati was going to limit the build numbers of some of the products making them more "exclusive" their view was that they were wanting to build an upper echelon bike. |
Jon
| | Posted on Thursday, November 24, 2005 - 01:46 am: |
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Rocketman,
Your pro-Ducati post is nothing more than a thinly disguised rant against America and Thanksgiving. Well I've got some gravy for your mash potatoes! You are nothing more than a Buell racist!!!
I have also informed Donald Rumsfeld of your hatred toward America, Thanksgiving, and Buell. He said that he would "personally take care of that limey cup-cake dago loving punk Rocketman".
You asked for it...
(Message edited by jon on November 24, 2005) |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, November 24, 2005 - 05:57 am: |
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Ruh-Roh! Rumsfeld!  |
Xlcr
| | Posted on Thursday, November 24, 2005 - 03:48 pm: |
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The two years of dropping sales IS fact. As for the rest, I don't see that you've done anything but rephrase what I said in a way that sounds a little more positive. The only real problem that I mentioned is that TPG doesn't want to keep Ducati, and the longer that goes on, the more likely it is that they will settle for whoever comes along.
As for what causes the failure of Italian motorcycle companies, there has been a lot of debate on that over the years, but the attitude that they are in the business of racing, and that selling motorcycles is merely a way of financing the same is certainly at least one of the reasons. The one I've heard mentioned most after that is the fact most rely on the sales of scooters to pay the bills, as their large sport models are simply not profitable, and when scooter sales drop off, as they have in recent years, the companies quickly find themselves in serious trouble. The financial problems you mentioned wouldn't BE problems if the companies had anything like reasonable cash flows and reserves.
I agree, and hope, that Ducati still has a bright future. If nothing else, the glory of its name, and the disinclination of the Italian government to see it go under, will mean that someone will keep it afloat. I disagree that the 999 will start selling enough to save it, though. I think their best hope is the new retro models, which have seen tremendous interest, and possibly the Multistrada and the upcoming Hypermotard, as ADVbikes seem to be the coming thing in the US. |
Trojan
| | Posted on Thursday, November 24, 2005 - 03:55 pm: |
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Ducati, who are they? No competition........
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Jon
| | Posted on Thursday, November 24, 2005 - 06:43 pm: |
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He he he ... |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Thursday, November 24, 2005 - 08:05 pm: |
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Xlcr, you may well be right. I can only spout what I read in the press, and hear in the trade, neither of which are that reliable at times. Best it seems, as you rightly point out, is my view is more upbeat. But hey, who the heck am I???
Your scooter analogy is perhaps bang on too, but I have a hard time, as I said in a similar thread regarding Japanese manufacturers recently, believing big bikes don't turn profits. I know for Ducati the Monster has turned their fortunes around BUT make no mistake, the 916 did likewise too. That will become a given for the 999 too. The 999 has simply exceeded the 916 technologically and now it seems asthetically. It's just a matter of time whilst the fashion stakes settle down.
Have a good un!!
Rocket |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Thursday, November 24, 2005 - 08:11 pm: |
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Jon, you can tell Rumsbelly that I'm gonna borrow Trojans UnrUly, ride over there and kick his 'turkey's' arse!!!
Rocket  |
Outrider
| | Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 12:34 am: |
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Trojan...Great Pics!!! |
Charlieboy6649
| | Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 01:12 am: |
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OOOOOOOoooooooooHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhh! Love that Trojan Uly! |
Jon
| | Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 01:43 am: |
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Rocketman,
Hope you enjoyed the nonesense.
Trojan,
Awesome photos! |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 09:57 am: |
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Matt,
Those ARE great photos! Any chance they are yours and you are willing to let us put them in the upcoming BadWeB calendar? |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 08:11 pm: |
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I loved it Jon. That's what the BadWeB is all about. Hands across the water and all that.
Rocket |
Trojan
| | Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 05:17 am: |
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Matt,
Those ARE great photos! Any chance they are yours and you are willing to let us put them in the upcoming BadWeB calendar?
Hi Blake,
The pics are by MCN but they have sent us a disc with loads on and said that we can use them. I will check with them on Monday to make sure and get back to you. |
Xlcr
| | Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 02:08 pm: |
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I think Ducati is the one exception to the rule as far as scooters go. I think they actually do make a profit on their sport bike line. I know the Monsters have been profitable. On the other hand, there is no doubt that companies like Aprilia, Benelli, and Piaggio have depended on scooter sales, and in the case of the first two, most sources say it was the drop in said sales that brought them into bankruptcy. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 06:40 pm: |
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Another thing to consider. A few years ago the Italian government passed new laws for scooter riders. Compulsory helmet wearing saw a drop in sales.
It's reported this week in MCN that new less restrictive import rules will affect sales of Proton vehicles in their home market. This could have a serious consequence to MV for example, if Proton hit financial constraints.
Is the only safe bet with the Chinese these days?
Rocket |
Smitty
| | Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 07:14 pm: |
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Another thing to consider. A few years ago the Italian government passed new laws for scooter riders. Compulsory helmet wearing saw a drop in sales.
I heard that the ladies complained it messed up their hair.
Tim |
Jon
| | Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 09:17 pm: |
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Rocketman, you are spot on. That helmet law was directly responsible for a massive drop in scooter sales. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 09:58 pm: |
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Thanks Jon. I do try keep my hand in.
You know, there's lots of stuff I could report on BadWeB. Sometimes months before it gets mainstream, but I just don't have the time to sit in front of the iBook. Not that my rantings and ramblings are (would) always be right of course :-) It's funny though because most things, in fact just about everything I come across motorcycle related eventually finds its way to the BadWeB. That in itself is remarkable really when we consider this is predominantly a dedicated Buell house. Maybe it's because somewhere along the line it's the stuff that great arguments are made of
Rocket |
Smitty
| | Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 10:12 pm: |
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Maybe it's because somewhere along the line it's the stuff that great arguments are made of
Rocket : You are full of stuff that great arguments are made of.
Tim |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 07:07 am: |
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Glad to hear it!!!!
One day this place will return to normal. Why do you think I've hung around all this time????
Rocket |
Court
| | Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 07:16 am: |
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>>>>You are full of stuff that great arguments are made of.
That is an accurate statement . . . and why we love ya mate!
>>>>One day this place will return to normal. Why do you think I've hung around all this time????
I agree. I say, give it a year. Much will happen in the coming year. |
M2nc
| | Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 12:37 pm: |
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Normal????
What's normal????
I sure hope not!!!!!
(Message edited by M2nc on November 27, 2005) |
Firemanjim
| | Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 12:50 pm: |
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Normal----maybe he means Abby Normal.
Cuz we don't want to be "normal".
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1313
| | Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 12:52 pm: |
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Can someone please define 'normal' for me? The word itself, not what it means w.r.t. me.
1313 |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 06:16 pm: |
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quote:normal - adjective
Mathematics. Being at right angles; perpendicular.
Excerpted from The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language.
 |
M2nc
| | Posted on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 04:00 am: |
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There have been many adjectives used in my direction, right (right angles) has never been one of them. So I guess I'm not normal!
Hooray!!!! |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 09:59 am: |
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Well then can it be that we only need to ascertain if you are "acute" or "obtuse"? 
Nerdy math humor, I love it. |
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