| Author | Message | ||
     Peter |
Rocketfella,  The frame kinks up at the back on later models, to allow the exhaust to pass below it without touching. With the above setup, it would hit the frame.
PPiA | ||
| Rocketman |
Ah yes, not been a big M2 fan, I didn't realise that problem, nor did I realise your M2 had the later type frame. So, you need an S1 mate. There's a dealer in England selling a NEW White Lightning. I don't know if he'll drop the price at all, but I bet he would. Asking £7000.  Hey Mistar Witt, wanna sell me your Aerocharger, grovel grovel  Rocket in England | ||
| Peter |
Rocketfella, I can buy them for 6000USD Stateside, but I like my sublime, boring and slow M2..... until Hein brings his S1W around and then it all goes out the window! PPiA | ||
| Rocketman |
Peter : A genuine White Lightning (S1WL), brand fire new for $6000 ? Where in America ? Rocket in England | ||
| Peter |
Rocketfella, Sorry mate. I missed the "new" bit. PPiA | ||
| Schemky |
Big Bore Buell: I have for the most part elected to stay with the stock bore. However, the temptation of of 84 or 88 cu. inches of thrust is hard to deny. I have seen prior postings of Bueller's that have installed various big bore kits. I would like to know the pro's and con's for the respective displacement selected. | ||
| Jmartz |
Schemky: I have posted these thoughts in the past so I won't go into details again. Just look down a stock case that has been bored to accept a set of 3 5/8" jugs from S&S (never mind a 3 13/16 Axtell set). Let me know what your gut feeling is... Jose | ||
| Schemky |
Jmartz, I do not ride in an area that is prolific in Buell's (Northern Louisiana), therefore I have little to nil access to see such mechanical phenomenon. I would suspect that going to a 3 5/8" or 3 3/4" bore would not leave a lot of case material at the cylinder/case interface for sealing. I would also suspect the intake and exhaust valves could limit flow on the larger displacement categories. A well tuned 84 or 88 cu. in. motor would certainly need more carburetor as well. In my estimation, a big bore kit has a load of "ancillary" fees that must be addressed, making the transition to larger displacement cost much more than the initial "big gun" hardware. Am I close? | ||
| Jmartz |
Shemky: The only way I can describe a set of cases prepared for larger displacent is sheer mutilation. A reduced gasket surface is available with 3 5/8 but none whasoever is left with 3 13/16 where the lower jug seal has to be provided with glue. You will incur the expense of truing rebalancing as well as stronger rods and lower end bearings since the whole thing is opened anyway. On the top side you will need the proper chamber size for compression set up as well as larger valves, manifold and carburator. Spark control will need to be addressed with an aftermarket ignition system. You might also consider oil control, exahust, roller tipped rockers and a suitable set of cams. Brian Nallin in in Shrevport, LA. That is in the northern part of the state, isn't t? | ||
| Ralph |
Jose, why would you need roller rockers and an aftermarket ignition? bighairyralph | ||
| Jmartz |
You could turn the pick up plate to reduce top end timing but I prefer adjusting the curve throughout leaving the idle at 20 BTDC. Those stock rockers gouge the top of the valve stems, especially with stronger springs. Just nice parts to have and enhance your trick factor, which IMHO is what our bikes are mostly about. Jose | ||
| Schemky |
Jmartz, I bought my 99 M2 from Brian when he was still working at Shreveport HD/Buell. I currently have a set of pistons and cams on order with him. However, I have not been to his shop (about an hours drive from my house). I intend to let him bore my cylinders for the .015 oversize Hurricane pistons this winter. I will examine some bored cases if he has some in his shop. Your bigger bore description is just about what I thought it would be. Like we used to say in bracket racing, if want a big motor, get a big motor, don't waste money making a smaller motor larger. Nallin has a "stock case" (no case boring necessary) 1250 kit that includes cylinders, pistons, etc. This big bore kit is (according to Nallin) worth about an extra 5 hp. Thanx, Jmartz, you have confirmed my initial impression of "magnumizing" the little Buell motor. | ||
| Ralph |
Jose, the only reason I've seen to get roller rockers is to clear the inside of the valve cover. A little shaving on the arm and a little on the inside of the cover and its good. Roller rockers cost to damn much for doing very little. I've been running my 88 with the Buell race ignition. No problems. As far as boreing the cases, I must have really thrown you with the photo I posted. Yes, the holes are big, so what! The case doesn't do much in that area. Sealing is no problem. You're making a case over nothing (get it? "case"). bighairyralph | ||
| Jmartz |
Ralph: I know setups like yours work but they certainly raise an eyebrow. It is just my personal preference to use an S&S case with standard paper jug gaskets if I wanted a big bore motor. On the other hand one could say why not use the cases I already own? If they break or leak I can always go the next step. We have lots of choices to select from in this hobby. None a pretty sight... Your cases were the 1st 5 speed for an Axtell 3 13/16 jug set that I have seen. I have also looked down a 4 speed mountain motor and several others set for S&S 3 5/5 jugs. | ||
| Ralph |
Dude! Without doubt I'd go for the S&S cases as well. They're great pieces. But at the same time, is it really necessary? Just like the roller rockers, it's an improvment, but for the expenditure, is it worth it? My S3 shakes it head, no. Just the S&S cases and roller rockers add something like two grand to the price - pretty close to my entire budget. bighairyralph | ||
| Jimidan |
I have two 88" Axtell Mountain Motors, one of which is for my racebike, the more stock version is on a streetbike. Both were built by Dan Fowler, Hot Shot Motorworks in Upper Sandusky, OH. The racebike engine cost me $6,000+, not counting what I had in the engine initially. You have to really love these things to try and get modern HP out of them. The racebike engine has STD heads that flow 180 cfs, Axtell's cylinders, JE pistons, S&S connecting rods, Featherlight tapered pushrods, .536 SE cams, 42mm Mikuni, S&S intake, Zippers Oil Pump, Barnett Clutch, new ratio second gears, 98 S1W crank, and Dyna 2000 single fire ignition system. The STD heads looked remarkably like the Zippers heads, as they had a bathtub chamber and dual plugs. The heads have 1.940 intake and 1.625 exhaust valves. I am running a Supertrapp with 21 plates. Hot Shot Motorworks (HSM) has a water brake engine dyno room (I think there are only 4 like it in the country) where they did the initial break-in and then took it to 5,500 rpm in stages with load. We ran it checking the engine head temp, oil temp, exhaust temps, oil pressure, and power output at all rpm ranges. My engine pulled 136 ft/lbs of torque and 114 hp at 5,500 rpm. He didn't want to take it any further until it is broken in, but that is double the torque of a 996 Ducati R, so I am pleased. I only have the .536 lift SE cams in it instead of .580s, where it would have had a steeper power band but more peak HP. I want a volume control not a light switch, if you know what I mean, since I will be road racing it. Once I complete the break-in, I will take it back and put it on his chassis dyno for final tuning of the Supertrapp IDS, timing and jetting to the design redline of 7,000 rpms. This engine should be very reliable as those big iron jugs tie the whole thing together preventing the flex allowed by the aluminum jugs. I am not worried about the base gasket (Cometic, .010) leaking, as there was enough material to properly seal it. Axtell and HSM has been boring these cases for more than a decade, with no problems with breakage. I think the key to these big bore engine is these strong iron jugs, which actually strengthen the engine cases when bolted down. With this much torque, it has the potential to break the tranny, although HSM loaded it down more than it will ever be on the street and it didn't break, as his dyno is chain drive which does not allow spin up like a chassis system where the tire spins on the drum (or on the street). The streetbike 88" engine has basically the stock components, but include the Axtells and JE pistons, Nallin's Stage one T-storms, Pro-Flow oil pump, S&S rods, Sifton pushrods, Balance Masters XL flywheels, Mikuni 42, SE .536 cams and Cometic gaskets throughout the top end. I think I could have used the stock rods in this engine, but for $300 for the S&S, why not use them...they are much beefier. | ||
| Jmartz |
Jimidan: Post some pics of your bikes it would make our day... Ralph: Aftermarket cases would be required if you wanted a 4" bore, otherwise stock cases will do till they go. Torque increases dramatically with bore but I have seen some pretty good HP #'s out of 1200 cc motors with a lot on the top. I probably don't need my Jims rockers and Hyperfromace titanium pushrods but when I take the motor to 7500 they give me peace of mind (real or imagined its all the same). So far I have not broken it but I sure try, especially when I street race somene. | ||
| Ralph |
Jimidan, man that's a tiny little cam for all of that motor. I've got Redshift .585's and it ain't no light switch. If I can't sell my S1 (wouldn't that be awful ) I'd like to build it up with and use the 590's. Small change in lift, big change in curve. Jose, I'm all for the titanium pushrods and keeping the valve train light. In that line I would think titainium valves would be of more value than the roller rockers at your 7500 rpm blasts. Sure, for a four inch bore you gotta drop even more money. I feel more than okay being 3/16 under that. bighairyralph | ||
| Schemky |
Stock Bore Advocate: You "magnum" guys impress the hell out of me. 136 ft. lbs. of torque? Like my sweet ole' grandma used to say. . . . . shhh____tt!! I just purchased a used/like new NOS complete kit from a local bike shop for $400.00 with a slew of new, unopened NOS jets. Fixin' to install my Nallin Thunderstorm pistons and Andrews N4 cams real soon. For under $1000.00, I should have about 95 rwhp on the motor, and I estimate about 120-125 rwhp on the bottle. Judging by the BBS dyno figures I see, my trusty M2 is probably making about 80 rwhp in its current configuration. My calculator says that if I produce 120 rwhp, I will have paid about $22.00 per hp. My hats off to JIMIDAN, but I just can't spend $6,000.00. Wish I could!! | ||
| Buelliedan |
Schmecky, Actually if you have Nallin Pistons I think they are Hurricanes not Thundertorms. | ||
| Buellzebub |
hey Jimidan what are the numbers for the "street" engine? just curious as i now have a 97 S1 with no cases and am wondering what to do when i rebuild | ||
| Blake |
Jose: Shreveport is NW LA. Brian's shop is about an hour's drive from my home in Kilgore, TX. | ||
| Road_Thing |
Blake: I beg to differ... Shreveport is Baja Arkansas! r_t | ||
| Jim_Witt |
Jimidan wrote: My engine pulled 136 ft/lbs of torque and 114 hp at 5,500 rpm. He didn't want to take it any further until it is broken in, but that is double the torque of a 996 Ducati R, so I am pleased. Hey Jim, Would it be a fair statement to say you have roughly $10,000 invested the the above bike (parts and LABOR) to achieve the torque and HP you've mentioned. Of course this includes whatever you previously had done to the bike. Cheers, -JW:>) | ||
| Schemky |
Bulliedan, Your right, I meant Hurricane, not thunderstorm, besides you shouldn't rain on my sunny outlook for makin' some serious thunder from my cyclone motor. . . . . . . . . | ||
| Jimidan |
I don't have any pictures of either one of my bikes yet...I am working on getting a digital camera. I have installed the race bike big engine in the S2 for now to facilitate a 1500 mile break-in. The 88" engine from the street bike is at Hot Shot Motorworks to let Dan work his magic on it. He is basically installing S&S rods and blueprinting it to give me a sense of reliabilty. The street bike is a tricked out Parkway Blue S2, with custom 5 spoke wheels that look kind of like billet Ducati, as the spokes have a reverse twist to them. It has Crossroads Performance billet clip-ons, steel ladder style swingarm like the Tilley Pro-Thunder machine, Banke's shifter and brake levers, Pro Race header w/ ST IDS, Spurgin oil cooler, custom paint, Race Teched forks with gold valves and 1.0 springs, Race Teched Showa shock with custom 7.5 kg/mm spring and gold valve. The race bike is currently being built and will not be street legal. It is an S1 based machine with 750 GSXR style Moriwaki forks and Kosman eccentric triple clamps that came off of Ben Spies claiming race bike. I am using a GSXR wheel and 6 piston Tokico brakes with Sun Star full floating rotors. The rear is Buell aluminum swingarm with a Penske shock and Marchesini wheel. I am using the S3 front fairing and an R6 racing tail/seat. I have a lot more than $10,000 in the S2 with this big engine in it, but it is a unique bike. I think the engine has enough power without larger cams than the .536" lift. These cams are very streetable, and I know of some other 88" completely tricked engines that don't have near the torque that mine has. The STD heads will take more cam anytime I decide to go that way. But, geez, this thing has more torque than Nicky Hayden' superbike...can you say wheel spin? | ||
| Blake |
"But, geez, this thing has more torque than Nicky Hayden' superbike...can you say wheel spin?" Reality check... Not at the rear wheel, since the engine's torque gets reduced by the overall drive ratio between crank and rear wheel. Right Aaron? Still, dude, that is one strong engine. Scary strong! BTW, I think JW was referring to $$ in just the engine. What class/events are you planning on racing? | ||
| Aaron |
No, it gets increased by gear reduction. Gear reduction raises torque and lowers rpm, hence horsepower stays the same. Nicky's bike will have more torque at the rear wheel for a given ground speed, because it has more horsepower (torque x rpm). They can apply more gear reduction for a given rear wheel rpm (ground speed), thus multiplying their lesser torque into more torque. Horsepower is the true measure of rear wheel torque, that's why we use it. Engine torque means nothing. You know that, you're just testing me. AW | ||
| Buelliedan |
I just have one question JimiDan, What branch of Citibank did you rob to afford these bikes?? Dan | ||
| Jmartz |
Aaron: Is the realtionship between engine torque and driveline reduction linear? If one were to increase a Buell rear wheel perfromance say to 120 HP and 100 ft. lbs. of torque leaving the driveline reduction stock would get you to the top of the gears quicker but retaining the same top speed. How would one go about raising the final drive ratio to say 2.00 (2.26 is stock) in order to put that extra energy into forward motion while accelerating? |
