| Author |
Message |
    
Jekins
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2014 - 09:21 pm: | 
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So, after rebuilding the engine from the cases out to solve a transmission issue (solved) and a loud metallic contact noise coming from the front cylinder I still have the noise issue . Anyone got a fresh idea on this ? it only happens when the bike hits fan temperature then the noise comes on like something is expanding and making contact.There was a bit of an intake leak which compounded the problem by making the engine run erratically at high temps. after sealing the leak the noise remains and the engine runs in spite of it . once engine is cooled bike runs perfect until it heats up again.
here is what is new or new/used
front cylinder head
rocker plate and arms
pushrods
cylinder - hammer
piston and wrist pin - Hammer
Rods and Crank ( rebuilt and balanced by dark horse because I thought this was the original issue)
Lifters - summit racing
you tube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7KH67BuBNM&a ...
I have seen 2 videos so far of bikes making this exact racket yet neither of them had follow up posts of a cure for the issue
looking for a new direction for solving this issue that doesn't involve lighting the bike on fire and pushing it into the street.
Thanks in advance j.ekins |
Alex
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2014 - 03:28 am: |
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Have You checked the head gasket bore matching the cylinder bore? |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2014 - 08:01 am: |
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It doesn't sound horrible, but it doesn't sound right either.
My tap comes and goes with RPM. It's similar, but not quite the same. |
Jekins
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2014 - 11:07 am: |
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It has made this noise thru the original head/cylinder /gasket and the swapped head/cylinder/ cometic gasket. |
Sparky
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2014 - 01:14 pm: |
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That sounds like a rocker arm hitting the top rocker cover. I would remove the top rocker cover and check for witness marks inside the cover. If that's the case, grind some clearance from the cover.
My S1 did that after changing cams that had slightly more lift than the stockers. |
Jekins
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2014 - 01:58 pm: |
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No Contact on either rocker cover . stock cams on bike . I have actually used 2 different lower rocker assemblies( I got one gently used set super cheap) to see if it made a difference . With stock springs valves cams etc. it doesn't look like the springs would come into contact with the lower rocker plate . This noise has existed with 2 different complete cylinder heads so it would be unlikely a guide or seal in each head would produce the exact same noise . |
Nhtuber
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2014 - 06:08 pm: |
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Try taking a piece of wood about two feet long, something like a dowel or piece of dimension lumber, and put one end up to your ear and place it on different parts of the motor while it's running. The clacking will get louder when you touch the area where the noise is. Try the lifter blocks on the front cylinder. If it's there you may have a lifter that's collapsing when it gets warm.
At least you'll get an idea of where the noise is coming from. |
Nhtuber
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2014 - 06:20 pm: |
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I just happened to think that if the lifter has collapsed, the noise may also be at the point where the push rod touches the rocker arm inside the rocker box.
Hopefully, someone will chime in who has had a similar problem. |
Jekins
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 24, 2014 - 11:32 am: |
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I have an auto style stethoscope i have been using . noise definitely is emanating from front cylinder rocker area . My first step, way back before i decided to split the cases and fix the tranny and noise , was to replace the lifters in the front cylinder . I used summit racing lifters but gained no relief from the noise . That what is so annoying about this noise is that all the usual suspect have been explored . I'm wondering if it is an ECM thing caused by the heat or an oil pump issue ( bronze drive gear update) but it comes on so consistent when the engine hits a certain temp - right at fan on temp. |
Desertdan
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 24, 2014 - 12:53 pm: |
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The Rod bushing is NOT reamed square with the bore ? the only way to make sure the Rod bushings are square with the crank/bore is to ream the rod (top bushing on the Rod) with a jig that bolts to the case insuring the bushing is square with the bore / crank , without doing this is like putting a twisted Rod in the engine , You can't just thro in a crank and Rods and not ream the Rod bushing square ON THE ENGINE CASE WITH A JIG, Hotter the engine gets the more noise it will make . Seen that to many times |
Nhtuber
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 24, 2014 - 01:51 pm: |
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Sounds like you've covered all of the bases. Hope I didn't insult you with the idea involving the piece of wood.
When you find the problem, please let everyone know the solution. |
Jekins
| | Posted on Thursday, December 25, 2014 - 10:48 am: |
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not insulted in the slightest nhtuber . I welcome any suggestions on this .thanks for the reply .
J. |
Jekins
| | Posted on Thursday, December 25, 2014 - 10:59 am: |
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thanks desertdan. So the crank bushings in the case could have been compromised from the start ? this noise was present with the original cylinders/piston/crank. When I split the cases I sent the crank to dark horse to be diagnosed trued, welded and balanced because i thought the front rod was bad .Front rod was fine and crank turned out to be in decent shape. the original rods are still in play but on the updated dark horse crank pin that dan ran thru their process. I re assembled the engine with the rebuilt crank/rods and a hammer 1250 kit . Crank was balanced by dark horse for the hammer kit specs. Noise remains almost exactly the same as with OEM parts. Thanks J |
Desertdan
| | Posted on Thursday, December 25, 2014 - 01:12 pm: |
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Jenkins , the issue is not the crank and rods , I'm sure it was rebuilt and balanced correctly. What the issue is is that when You install a crank and rod set in the cases do to slight manufacturing differences from engine case to case they are not perfectly square to the bore. Once You install the Crank and rods and button up the cases You need to check Rod alignment with the bore. The only way to make sure the rods upper bushing is square with the bore is to use a Jig that bolts to the case where You would bolt down the Cylinders and use a Reamer thru the upper rod bushing, this makes sure the piston travels up perfectly straight and not at a slight angle which will cause Piston wear , a knocking in the top end that many people write off as rockers or pushrods or any number of things. Lots of people don't do this very Important check and wonder why the rebuilt Engine didn't last. FYI , It can be off enough to have to use a Rod Alignment Tool that again bolts to the Cases at the Cylinder bases and You actually have to bend the rods in the cases to align them. You may very well be ok just throwing in the crank set , but that's a crap shoot at the best. Just something to keep in mind when run out of options or Your check list looking for that gremlin. |
Desertdan
| | Posted on Thursday, December 25, 2014 - 01:37 pm: |
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You can check out the tools here in case I'm not doing a very good job describing them . Merry Christmas to all.
http://www.handsontools.com/JIMS-1284-Rod-Holder-T ool-for-Harley-Davidson_p_19737.html
JIMS 1284 Rod Holder Tool for Harley-Davidson
Use to keep connecting rods in place and eliminate twisting or bending of the connecting rod while reaming or honing the wrist pin bushings. Works well with JIMS ® No.1051, 95970-32C wrist pin bushing tools, and JIMS® No.1726-1, 1726-2, 1726-3 wrist pin bushing reamers.
No.1284 - Use on all Twins and Buell®Blast. Includes Twin Cam® ‘A’ and ‘B’. |
Jekins
| | Posted on Thursday, December 25, 2014 - 03:20 pm: |
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Awesome info desert dan! . Thanks for taking the time to write it up for me with a great explanation . I will check it out.
j.ekins |
Desertdan
| | Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2014 - 03:16 am: |
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I hope your making progress on solving Your noise issue. I'm adding a description from S&Scycles just as an FYI for anyone that has plans to do a top end rebuild or rebuild a long block . Just because You think You will get a new set of jugs and pistons and slap in Your engine without checking the rod alignment think about it, it is possible even if perfectly straight when the engine was built that Heat and stress has warped the rod or rods ! this has to be one of the most over looked steps in Harley engine building.
From S&S :
Connecting Rod Alignment (All)
NOTES:
• The purpose of this procedure is to correct for machining tolerance discrepancies in components which may lead to pistons not running true in
cylinder bores. While rods may be straight and true, it is sometimes necessary, to bend them to correct for these machining discrepancies. Do not
bend rod by using tool in wristpin hole as this method may distort wristpin bushing. We also feel that using a piston in lieu of a checking pin may
prove inaccurate due to variations in lengths of piston skirts from one side of piston to the other.
• All engines should be checked upon disassembly for incorrect piston alignment. This applies to those which are receiving new pistons as well as
those being completely rebuilt. Observe pistons for wear spots on sides above top compression ring. If one side near wristpin is worn clean while
side opposite is carboned up, then piston was not running straight and true in cylinder bore. Piston will also generally show diagonal wear pattern
on thrust faces of skirts and possibly signs of connecting rod to wristpin boss contact inside piston.
• We feel that not enough emphasis is given to checking piston alignment in cylinder bore. Proper piston alignment means connecting rods will
thrust to sides less minimizing added stress on pistons, rings, rod bearings, and other related parts.
• S&S® Rod Checking Pin, part 53-0002, was designed to help perform this procedure. It may also be necessary, to fabricate a rod bending tool |
Desertdan
| | Posted on Friday, January 02, 2015 - 01:58 am: |
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jekins , after reviewing your list of new/used parts for assembly one other possible problem occurred to Me. the push rods you installed were they adjustable ? If You put factory non adjustable push rods in then there is a very good chance one or more are not the correct length. factory does not pay that much attention to proper length and installs a one size fits all push rod that in most cases is close enough do to the travel of the hydraulic lifter . In some cases they do use a special length push rod when things to far off , but mostly they just slap in a one size fits all for that series engine and off we go :-( . If You suspect an incorrect length push rod You can get adjustable ones that you can adjust to the center of travel of the lifters , some ricky racers adjust them at the top of the lifter travel to get a pinch more lift at high rpms ,lots of things can cause incorrect length including head gaskets that are thicker then factory, basically anything that changes the length from the lifter to the rocker arm. thats all I got for now , but there is more :-) |
Jekins
| | Posted on Monday, January 05, 2015 - 10:46 am: |
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Thanks desertdan. The pushrods that came out of the engine initially were most likely the originals . the noise was present with them . None of those rods were bent although had a bit more chatter when rolled on plate glass. I sourced a set of Excellent condition stock rods to switch out just to see if it made a difference . Measured them all on my 1/100" rule to make sure exhaust and intake went to correct holes and that they werent way off of shop manual stated length . Would love to get a set of adjustables but since it is a buell XB it would require throwing another couple hundred at the zippers kit to eliminate the stupid factory plastic pushrod tower . gonna pull the heads and jugs later this week and use the rod alignment tool to check things later this week . |
Desertdan
| | Posted on Monday, January 05, 2015 - 01:16 pm: |
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Jenkins sounds Like Your on the right track , get a chance go here and read about push rods , just an fyi on the things that can determine push rod length , You have it apart so why not eliminate this from your list. posting this just not for you but for others that go into the top end and start making changes and either burn valves or have an annoying push rod ticking/rattle , good luck , you will solve this, and I want to know what the problem was .
http://www.hammerperf.com/ttpushrodlength.shtml#wh ypushrodlength |
Jekins
| | Posted on Monday, January 12, 2015 - 01:26 am: |
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Update : I Pulled the jugs and used the jims 1010 tool on the rods . No perceptible difference in drag on the paper strips so rods were square to cases and bore . Checked piston above top ring and found no carbonization on either side that would lead me to believe sideways thrust was issue. Pulled valves on front head as well to check seats . they looked fine . the search continues : ( |
Desertdan
| | Posted on Monday, January 12, 2015 - 04:20 pm: |
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since you have the heads off , has there ever been a valve job done ? were the head gasket surface ever milled ? do you have anybody close that can measure the valve stem height ? if the valves get pounded into the head or someone has done a valve job and didn't get the valve stem installed height correct that can be a problem. the surfaces on the rockers where they push on the valve stem look right ? any chance it's a lifter with a bad axle or rollers , sometimes these will transmit noise to the top end. You have to be close to finding the issue , hang in there |
Jekins
| | Posted on Monday, January 12, 2015 - 06:48 pm: |
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There is a very small amount of play or wobble when I insert the intake valve into the guide ( no spring,seal,or keepers installed) and check it for looseness . would that play be enough to make such a horrible racket ? |
Desertdan
| | Posted on Monday, January 12, 2015 - 08:13 pm: |
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its hard to say what you think a small amount is , do both heads intake valves have the same amount of play in the intakes ? did you pull the valve up off the seat about .500" and check the play there also ? I take it You didn't run the engine very long before tear down so would be hard to see wear marks on the valve seat or valve face , but yes if it is to sloppy it will drop into the seat not square and pull its self into place and that would make a noise. If you put the valve springs back in fill the intake and exhaust up one at a time with fuel and see how much leaks past the valves , should be barley a seep, anymore then that and you will need to lap the valves or take it and get a valve job , guides are to worn lapping wont help at that point , now while you have the pushrods out good time to check the lifters , feel the axles and rollers . there is such a thing as a bad/plugged hydraulic lifter and they are hard chase down . hang in there |
Jekins
| | Posted on Monday, January 19, 2015 - 10:55 am: |
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Thanks Desertdan. I was examining the heads more this weekend . The Front intake is the the one valve with some "walk " to it . with the spring off, set in the guide and about a half inch off the seat , the valve seems to have a lot more clearance or looseness than the .002 specs . I can wiggle it back and forth in the guide . I am gonna take a vid and post it later. |
Jekins
| | Posted on Monday, January 19, 2015 - 02:34 pm: |
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Video of front intake valve in guide
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGe_zABmPXw&featur e=youtu.be |
Buellistic
| | Posted on Monday, January 19, 2015 - 05:52 pm: |
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Front ISOLATOR ??? |
Hogs
| | Posted on Monday, January 19, 2015 - 06:03 pm: |
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Just my .02 cents that Valve does NOT seem to be all THAT lose and it does Not come out that far into the barrel,is NOT making that loud ticking you are hearing.... Could also be a bad spring, collar etc.. But I would think you would have checked all these items by now....
Just a guess is Pushrod tip, Rocker arm or Bad lifter...
(Message edited by hogs on January 19, 2015) |
Hogs
| | Posted on Monday, January 19, 2015 - 06:05 pm: |
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I might add...If it is in the top end and Not the lower end cant tell by listening over the Net.. |
Desertdan
| | Posted on Monday, January 19, 2015 - 11:05 pm: |
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so to review , you changed out the rockers and pushrods , checked the rod for being square in the bore , the intake is a little sloppy , I would have the one guide reamed before re assembly . at this point I'm banking on a wrong length pushrod . You are reusing the cam from before , that is one part that you did not change from previous running engine with the same noise ? perhaps the profile of the cam is off making the lifter hop off the lobes and not follow the lobes smoothly ? |
Jekins
| | Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2015 - 11:15 am: |
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Thanks Guys !. sorry I was swamped with work this week ( I'm freelance so it is a + ).
Desertdan, Yes to all the review questions . I was talking to Aaron Wilson from Hammer who also felt the valve wouldn't produce that much racket from being i bit loose in the guide. Same cam set that was in the bike originally . The front in/ex cams don't appear to have a huge amount of wear on them although I don't have a mic to check them with . I checked all 3 sets of pushrods I have ( the original front and rear set plus the clean used set I was running in the front) with a 1/100 rule. All of them are either on point or within 2/100 of the manual stated 10.762 or 10.780 lengths.
I had to order a couple bits from New castle HD so I sprung for a couple new pushrods ( correct part #s) just to compare against the ones I have . Thankfully they go for 8 bucks each now. Gonna use new lifters on re assembly . The fact that this noise doesn't come on until the engine gets hot enough for the fan to come on is significant . the noise is definitely either something in the valve train developing slack during the thermal expansion or something getting too close to something else when hot( although annoyingly there is no clear evidence of the hammering that u would expect from that noise)Thanks for all the input guys, I am continuing to plug away at this one . |
Desertdan
| | Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2015 - 01:50 pm: |
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Jenkins , Your doing a great job, I still think It is a pushrod , not that Yours is the wrong length according to the book but the wrong length according to Your Engine. the stated manual length of 10.762 or 10.780 might not be right for your engine do to manufacturing accuracies. the only real way to know is either a adjustable push rod or pushrod checking tool and measure the length with the piston at top dead center . about $20 for the tool . not trying to get you to spend money. maybe You could borrow one from a Harley dealer or custom Harley shop ? |
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