| Author |
Message |
    
Smiles
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 27, 2013 - 02:39 pm: | 
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Hello all! I’ve been having a few problems with a bike that was recently in an accident. There's a video of the bike starting at the end of this post. In the middle, the video shows the dull whirring of the fuel pump. There's also a link to the thread on BuellXB
Year: 2003
Model: XB9S
Miles: 17,XXX
Problem One
- The bike was having trouble starting (engine cranks but will not start). Pulling back on the throttle while starting can get it going. While the bike is under load it felt like it was misfiring/sputtering and would die if the clutch was pulled in too long/the rpms would drop too low. Also, after the engine had warmed up the idle would be anywhere between 2500-300rpm.
Attempted Solution for Problem One
- I read these symptoms can be caused by a bad Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) and resetting it can remedy the problem. I pulled the TPS off and it looked like crap so I replaced it with one meant for a 1993 Mustang 5.0 (Duralast TPS213).
Using EcmSpy I followed the TPS reset instructions from my service manual. While I was attempting to get the Idle Adjustment Screw between 5.2-5.6 degrees the idle adjustment cable broke.
Since then, I have replaced the idle adjustment cable and have done another TPS reset, but the bike is experiencing the exact same problems as before.
A friend of mine had a spare Engine Control Module (ECM) from a 2003 XB9R. We plugged in the new ECM and the bike ran just as bad, if not worse, than with the stock ECM.
Problem Two
- Before the accident the Fuel Pump would be LOUD whenever it would be priming. Currently, the fuel pump is a dull whirring noise.
Attempted Solution for Problem Two
- The possibility of the battery not having good grounds was introduced. The tail sections were destroyed in the accident, so new tail sections (M0614.1ADYBT / M0612.1ADYBT) were put in. It was thought that the battery’s ground connections to the tail section weren’t good since the new tail sections are painted.
The area of paint where the grounds connect to the tail sections was removed. There has been no improvement found with the fuel pump.
Problem Three
- Before the accident the 1-year-old battery drained quickly and had to be connected to a battery tender every night. Currently, the battery loses voltage so quickly you can watch it drop .1V every 4-5 minutes with the bike ON, the kill switch set to “Run,” and with the engine not running.
Attempted Solution for Problem Three
- The grounds on the tail sections were cleaned off.
The stator was and it checked out fine (prior to accident).
The voltage regulator was tested and it checked out fine (prior to accident).
The voltage regulator connecter [77] was tested and it checked out fine (prior to accident).
Problem Four
- The fan will turn on when riding after 10-15 miles. The fan will remain on until the bike has been turned off and has been sitting for 5-10 minutes.
The bike is in Omaha, NE, so the weather isn’t the most forgiving. Before the accident the fan would only turn on if the weather was hot and the engine was on and the bike hadn’t been moving for some time.
Other Information
The gas tank is full of premium gasoline (91 octane).
Seafoam was put through the gas tank and throttle body 1-3 weeks before the accident.
The battery is 1-year-old and is from Harley Davidson. It will give a reading of 12.8V right after being on a battery tender.
The fuel pump gave a reading of 11.4V when the battery gave a reading of 12.4V.
A different Intake Air Temperature Sensor (IAT) was connected to the bike, but there was no improvement.
What’s Been Replaced
Spark plugs
Spark plug wires
Idle Adjustment Cable
Throttle Position Sensor
All fuses
Link to video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFudZ69EWY4
Link to thread on BuellXB: http://www.buellxb.com/Buell-XB-Forum/Buell-Lightning-XB12S-XB12Ss-CityX-XB12Scg/Troubleshooting/2003-XB9S-Multiple-Problems
(Message edited by Smiles on August 27, 2013) |
Doz
| | Posted on Thursday, August 29, 2013 - 06:45 am: |
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Without much thought on my end.....check for a leaky manifold gasket |
Smiles
| | Posted on Saturday, August 31, 2013 - 01:38 pm: |
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*UPDATE*
Had the battery load tested (thank you misguided). Battery checks out fine
I read on some forums there can be starting issues related to the oxygen sensor and IAT; so, yesterday I replaced the following:
Fuel pump
2003 Ford Mustang 3.8L
Autozone E2366
Fuel filter
2003 Ford Mustang 3.8L
Autozone FF3330DL
Oxygen sensor
87 Chevrolet ½ ton 4.3L
Bosch 12014
IAT
97 Ford F-150 4.6L
Duralast SU2004
THE BIKE STILL. WON’T. START.
Currently, it just clicks over and over (same sound as the youtube video in the original post).
Out of the frying pan and into the fryer I guess… |
Sparky
| | Posted on Saturday, August 31, 2013 - 04:29 pm: |
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In the video it sounds like the engine is not cranking when the Start button is pressed. Is that so?
If so, I'd try replacing the Start Relay (not the Starter Solenoid) or try swapping the relays around in the Relay Cluster as a first step in troubleshooting. There are a few other components in that chain that lead to the Starter Motor, but we're not there yet.
I would be concerned about the relatively quick battery drain problem mentioned in problem 3, but that may be attributed to the headlights being on and drawing current. |
Smiles
| | Posted on Sunday, September 01, 2013 - 03:43 pm: |
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*UPDATE*
Had the battery charged and load tested at O’Reilly Auto Parts. Just wanted to be absolutely certain it wasn’t the battery. Battery checks out fine.
Pulled all the relays and made sure their connections were good. Afterwards, I made sure they were seated tightly.
The next time I’m working on it I’ll add the piece of foam as thrstrmech suggested. It sounds like an easy remedy.
Replaced the starter relay (Part No. 31522-00C) and the bike is sounding a little better, but still isn’t starting (thank you Sparky and worker88).
I attempted to jump the bike using a car battery (thank you squidbuellie – love the name by the way), but it still wouldn’t start.
squidbuellie-
I read some forums of bikes having the same symptoms as mine where the IAT and O2 sensor were the reason. Also, they looked like crap when I pulled them out and inspected them, so it was time to replace them, regardless.
I replaced the fuel pump because there was next to no noise coming from it at all. When I pulled the fuel pump out I found the screen was full of… I don’t know what, but it was clogged. I tested the fuel pump assembly and found nothing was happening at all.
Once I get a free moment I’ll start the procedure for testing the starter in the service manual.
Here’s a link to a more recent video of the bike starting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYFgJWxmIMQ
(Message edited by Smiles on September 01, 2013) |
Sparky
| | Posted on Sunday, September 01, 2013 - 04:16 pm: |
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Just an idea, but in an effort to rule out ignition problems when starting, I have sprayed Starting Fluid into the air cleaner prior to cranking with good results. With a good ignition system the bike or car will then fire momentarily even if no fuel is being delivered to the intake track.
Of course if you found the fuel pump is not working, that's likely 99% of the problem right there. |
Smiles
| | Posted on Sunday, September 01, 2013 - 05:44 pm: |
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The *new* fuel pump is working just fine now, but the bike still isn't starting. |
Andersonhdj
| | Posted on Sunday, September 01, 2013 - 06:20 pm: |
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So when you say not starting, it cranks but does not fire?
How long has it been standing? ie - not running.
Perhaps gummed up injectors?
Mine also became difficult to start after standing a few weeks , i would give her a couple of shot of ethanol down the throttle body and she'd fire right up, after that she'd be ok for a while.
The trick is to actually get her to run , just an odd fire is'nt good enough , pull the airbox so you can see down the throttle body and don't give her more than 20mls at a time.
If you use "Quickstart" type spray you may have to empty the can.
Has she run at all on the new plugs?
Perhaps have a fire extiguisher handy if you're nervous and a spare pair of under-rods!
(Message edited by andersonhdj on September 01, 2013) |
Andersonhdj
| | Posted on Sunday, September 01, 2013 - 06:46 pm: |
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Just watched your video, that's the sound of your starter solenoid chattering which means either your battery is not up to swinging the starter or your starter is drawing your battery down so much the bendix is'nt even activating.
If it's still doing this on a car battery then you need to check your starter feed from the solenoid forward, it may be that your starter itself has failed / locked up in some way. |
Hogs
| | Posted on Sunday, September 01, 2013 - 07:09 pm: |
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Starter is fine...Check for spark and fuel... |
Andersonhdj
| | Posted on Monday, September 02, 2013 - 03:29 am: |
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All i heard was a solenoid chatter , that starter did'nt turn over , not even once , unless there's a post i'm missing. |
Hogs
| | Posted on Monday, September 02, 2013 - 07:02 am: |
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Here’s a link to a more recent video of the bike starting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYFgJWxmIMQ
First video he posted battery was weak=no start...
2nd video here battery strong and fuel pump strong starter works fine...
(Message edited by hogs on September 02, 2013) |
Andersonhdj
| | Posted on Monday, September 02, 2013 - 01:52 pm: |
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Thanks Chris, for some reason i only get 10 secs of this link then it locks up , both my laptop and desktop.
Anyway point taken , but does it fire at all , not being able to see the entire vid i don't know.
If it does fire then i hold with my first post, just feed it till it starts , unless of course there's been damage to the cam sensor.
Even with a duff IAT or Oxy sensor she should still start!
Will run like crap maybe, but should start. |
Smiles
| | Posted on Thursday, September 19, 2013 - 09:27 am: |
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*UPDATE*
After running a few tests I found there was quite a bit of resistance and intermittent continuity going from the bank angle sensor to the vehicle speed sensor, as well as, the camshaft position sensor.
I tested a few more wires along that circuit and found there were MULTIPLE issues (no continuity here, resistance there, bad wiring all over, etc.). A buddy of mine had a harness on a parts bike, so I replaced the main wiring harness with one from a 2006 XB9SX.
Before I installed the new harness I checked all the wires and everything was looking fine. I wrapped the new wiring harness up, connected everything, and made certain the battery had a full charge.
Since the 2006 XB9SX wiring harness has a ground to the ECM, I put the SX’s ECM in to keep the connections as adjacent as possible.
After everything was connected I decided to try and start up the bike. Sadly, it was still CRANK. NO. START.
I noticed the battery drained way too fast and thought (maybe quite possibly) it was the battery. A friend had a fresh Harley battery, but it had the same result – no start and quickly drained.
I read the voltage regulator (Y0302.02A8) can cause a battery to be drained faster than normal, so that was replaced as well.
I’ve tried starting the bike in neutral with the kickstand down; in neutral with the kickstand up; in gear with the kickstand down and clutch pulled in, etc.
After putting in the new harness and new ECM I did a TPS reset and checked the spark plugs. They’re still giving off a nice blue spark.
Yet, the bike STILL isn’t kicking over.
Here is a list of what has been replaced thus far:
All relays
All fuses
Spark plugs
Spark plug wires
Idle adjustment cable
Throttle position sensor
Intake air temperature sensor
Oxygen sensor
Fuel pump (and screen)
Fuel filter
Main wire harness
Engine control module
Voltage regulator
My sanity – to be replaced
Here’s a link to a more recent video of the bike starting: http://youtu.be/CiOZbnoG6dU} |
Andersonhdj
| | Posted on Thursday, September 19, 2013 - 11:54 am: |
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Have you confirmed that spark is occurring at the correct time??
Perhaps the cam position sensor? |
Smiles
| | Posted on Thursday, September 19, 2013 - 12:22 pm: |
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I don't know if they're sparking at the correct time. I just know they're giving off a blue spark.
I'm thinking it's one or a combination of the following:
Cam position sensor
Compression leak
Incorrect/wrong map on the ECM
Clogged/fouled injectors
Sidestand sensor (the 2006 XB9SX doesn't have a sidestand sensor, but the assembly is still from the 2003 XB9S) |
Andersonhdj
| | Posted on Thursday, September 19, 2013 - 06:44 pm: |
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You're making too many assumptions and making too many changes , there is a golden rule to fault finding , " Always make only one change at a time"
If you have fouled injectors a shot of fuel down the inlet tract will cause her to fire and probably run for a few seconds.
A compression leak is unlikely to affect both cyls and therefore cause a non starting issue.
Can't comment on the sidestand sensor except to say "i doubt it"
Ecm , well you changed that out for a replacement , backtrack and fit the old one you knew worked.
If you're throwing money at it , as seems the case , change the CPS , if your timing is off, it'll never start!
You need to confirm the timing before you go any further!
Also , exactly how old is the fuel?
(Message edited by andersonhdj on September 19, 2013) |
Smiles
| | Posted on Thursday, September 19, 2013 - 08:17 pm: |
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*UPDATE*
After reading a dozen or so threads about bikes having the same issue I decided to look into the ECM pinout differences between a 2003 XB9S and a 2006 XB9SX. On the surface everything looks the same, but there are differences:
2003 XB9S
- Sidestand switch
- NO exhaust valve motor
[11] Gray
Pin Meaning
1 +5 Volts Sensor Power Supply
2 Throttle Position Sensor (TPS)
3 Camshaft Position Sensor (CPS)
4 Exhaust Gas Oxygen Sensor (O2)
5 +12 Volts, Input (ECM keepalive)
6 Cooling Fan Control (DDFI-2 only)
7 Sensor Ground
8 Vehicle Speed Sensor, Input (DDFI-2 only)
9 Engine Temperature Sensor (ETS)
10 Intake Air Temperature Sensor (IAT)
11 Serial Receive (Rx, to ECM)
12 Serial Transmit (Tx, from ECM)
[10] Black
Pin Meaning
1 +12 Volts Switched Ignition, Input (ECM power supply)
2 Ground (ECM power supply)
3 Fuel Pump Control
4 Check Engine Lamp (CEL)
5 Injector 1 (Front) Control
6 Coil 1 (Front) Control
7 Coil 2 (Rear) Control
8 Injector 2 (Rear) Control
9 UNUSED
10 Bank Angle Sensor (BAS)
11 Ground Coils
12 Tachometer Output
- ecmspy.com/pinouts.html
2006 XB9SX
- NO sidestand switch
- Exhaust valve motor
[11] Gray
Pin Meaning
1 +5 Volts Sensor Power Supply
2 Throttle Position Sensor (TPS)
3 Camshaft Position Sensor (CPS)
4 Exhaust Gas Oxygen Sensor (O2)
5 +12 Volts, Input (ECM keepalive)
6 Cooling Fan Control (DDFI-2 only)
7 Sensor Ground
8 Vehicle Speed Sensor, Input (DDFI-2 only)
9 Engine Temperature Sensor (ETS)
10 Intake Air Temperature Sensor (IAT)
11 Serial Receive (Rx, to ECM)
12 Serial Transmit (Tx, from ECM)
[10] Black
Pin Meaning
1 +12 Volts Switched Ignition, Input (ECM power supply)
2 Ground (ECM power supply)
3 Fuel Pump Control
4 Check Engine Lamp (CEL)
5 Injector 1 (Front) Control
6 Coil 1 (Front) Control
7 Coil 2 (Rear) Control
8 Injector 2 (Rear) Control
9 Exhaust Valve Motor Feedback (DDFI-2, XB12 only)
10 Bank Angle Sensor (BAS)
11 Ground Coils
12 Tachometer Output
- ecmspy.com/pinouts.html
The 2006 XB9SX has a single shovel connector between the black and gray sockets of the ECM. This is the exhaust valve motor control (EVM). Yet, the 2003 XB9S ECM does NOT have this shovel connector because it doesn’t have an exhaust valve.
After digging a little deeper I found out the exhaust valve motor has two circuits. One circuit (send) activates the actual motor while the other circuit (feedback) relays information to the ECM in regards to the position of the camshaft (through the camshaft position sensor, or CPS), which allows the ECM to know when to open the exhaust valve.
Hold on to your butts.
Here’s what I’m thinking could be the problem(s):
The bike currently has a 2006 XB9SX wiring harness and ECM in it. The 06 ECM is attempting to communicate with an EVM that doesn’t exist. Since the EVM has a circuit going through the CPS, I’ve been experiencing symptoms akin to that of a bad CPS.
I tried plugging in the 2003 XB9S ECM in to see if it would do any better. It did, but only slightly. There were a few pops, but still no start. This may be due to the 03 ECM looking for a signal from the side stand switch, but there isn’t one. Since there’s an 06 wiring harness in the bike there are no wires designated to connect to a side stand switch.
I’m thinking I have two options:
1) Have the 06 ECM in the bike and program it to ignore the EVM.
2) Have the 03 ECM in the bike and program it to ignore the side stand switch.
Thoughts?
Link to thread on BuellXB: http://www.buellxb.com/Buell-XB-Forum/Buell-Lightn ing-XB12S-XB12Ss-CityX-XB12Scg/Troubleshooting/200 3-XB9S-Multiple-Problems
Here’s a link to the most recent video of the bike starting: http://youtu.be/CiOZbnoG6dU |
Smiles
| | Posted on Thursday, September 19, 2013 - 08:38 pm: |
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Anderson-
I put down "compression leak" after talking with a number of mechanics (Harley and automotive).
I'm planning on putting a shot of ethanol down the inlet, as you mentioned in a previous post, but I'm in school so I have to pick and choose what I have time for.
The fuel is two weeks and five days old. |
Andersonhdj
| | Posted on Friday, September 20, 2013 - 07:06 am: |
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I would'nt be concerned about a compression leak as previously stated , should run on at least one cyl.
A few pops sounds promising , it means there's combustion , open the throttle give her a shot of ethanol and keep cranking, you'll probably have to give her some throttle while you're cranking.
Make sure you have fire extinguisher handy or at least a good rag should you get a major backfire through the throttle body , and don't let one backfire put you off, just use one shotglass at a time and don't spill any!
I'm def of the opinion that it's CPS related.
On the fuel side, your fuel is'nt old enough to be a problem.
Post another vid of you doing this, being able to hear is worth a million bucks!
BTW , what are you studying?
(Message edited by andersonhdj on September 20, 2013) |
Smiles
| | Posted on Friday, September 20, 2013 - 10:41 am: |
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I forgot to record the first shot and I'm glad I did- the shot of gas got all over me.
The second shot was too grainy (don't know why).
Here's the video of the 3rd, 4th, and 5th shots of BP Premium: http://youtu.be/uETTMpgpaYE
The is now QUITE a bit of gray smoke throughout the garage.
I found out with ECMSpy you can turn the active muffler control and/or burn the map for the active muffler control. I'm thinking about turning it off to see what if there will be any changes (not burning, just turning it off).
I'm studying Secondary Education with endorsements in Language Arts and Speech Pathology |
Andersonhdj
| | Posted on Friday, September 20, 2013 - 01:49 pm: |
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Hey man, Cool beans!!!, there's life!
It seems from the vids that she fire's straight up, so now here's the thing , when she ran, she died almost as soon as she started , did you try to coax her to run a bitty more by keeping the throttle open??
Try this again , this time add 2 shots and see if she runs on a bit , you could also put some fuel into a squeeze bottle and feed her with the idle screwed up a bit.
Point of all this , if you can coax her to run this way , then we have proved that you have a fueling problem rather than an ignition problem.
Now , you have indicated that you replaced the TPS , and that would have been an immediate suspect , but if we see success with the foregoing then it leaves only the possibility that she's not delivering fuel for some reason.
Having said this though , it still does'nt discount the TPS as you're effectively controlling your mixture manually.
If you can get her to run for a bit till she's warm and she will then start , then the CHT might be suspect.
There has to be a signal to the ECM to enrich the starting mixture and is likely to come from the CHT.
Thought you might be into Engineering from the tone of your posts.
Hamish.
(Message edited by andersonhdj on September 20, 2013) |
Andersonhdj
| | Posted on Friday, September 20, 2013 - 02:07 pm: |
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Just a further thought , have you confirmed fuel right up to the throttle body??
Pull the fuel line off and feed it into a 2litre Coke bottle , switch on the ignition and confirm she's delivering fuel. |
Smiles
| | Posted on Friday, September 20, 2013 - 03:22 pm: |
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I had the throttle 50-70% open the entire time. I didn't go below that point.
I'll try putting two shots down the throttle body and use a squeeze bottle right now.
I recall having fuel being delivered when I worked on the fuel pump assembly, but I haven't checked fuel delivery at the throttle body.
I did some Engineering in high school and thought it was fun, but I didn't pursue it.
The reason as to why I have this sort of tone in the posts is because after reading a mountain of threads about bikes having similar issues I came to a few conclusions:
1) The person who started the thread left out information pertinent to the solution they found OR they found a solution and never posted it.
2) People commenting/responding to the thread would give vague and incomplete answers leading to misinterpretations, random conclusions, or a dead-end when there could have been a solution.
3) If someone solved their problem by replacing a part they (a) wouldn't post what the part was (b) would post what the part was, but wouldn't post the part number or cross-reference part used, or (c) would post the wrong part information, which would lead others, having the same problem, down the wrong path.
Also, I've been trying to be as detailed as possible so anyone reading the thread will be on the same page as me. If in the future, if someone else has the same problem as me they can see what the symptoms were, what part numbers/cross-reference parts I used to find the best deal, what my results were, and what to do/what to NOT do. |
Smiles
| | Posted on Friday, September 20, 2013 - 06:02 pm: |
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I pulled off the fuel line from the throttle body and primed the engine, but not much came out (as you can see in the video. I primed the engine again, and about the same amount of fuel came out.
After priming the bike twice there was 45-50mL of gas that came out.
Link to bike priming: http://youtu.be/QpmVcsP8TSY
I hooked the fuel line back up, put 40mL of gas down the throttle body, filled a squeeze bottle with fresh (purchased same day) gas, and got ready to test it out.
I felt if I had been faster with the squeeze bottle, had a larger bottle, or if the bottle had a larger spout the engine would have kept going. The engine pulled the bottle out of my hand and into the velocity stack, which caused the engine to die.
I noticed the bike ran a little longer with a larger amount of fuel (40mL instead of 20mL) and having the bottle being introduced.
Link to bike starting (with squeeze bottle of gas):http://youtu.be/rq_KsDxaIk8
Also, there was A LOT of gray smoke from the bike, as you can see in the video.
I'm going to see if I can somehow get a larger and more steady amount of fuel introduced into the engine.
(Message edited by Smiles on September 20, 2013) |
Andersonhdj
| | Posted on Friday, September 20, 2013 - 06:37 pm: |
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quote:The reason as to why I have this sort of tone in the posts is because after reading a mountain of threads about bikes having similar issues I came to a few conclusions:
Hey man , it seems you may have taken exception to my comment. My apologies , it was'nt meant in a derogatory manner by any stretch of the imagination , quite the contrary in fact!
Interestingly , i too , have also come to the same conclusions .
Anyway i'm only trying to help , that said i'm not an expert in things Buell by any means! |
Smiles
| | Posted on Friday, September 20, 2013 - 06:48 pm: |
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I wasn't taking any offense. Really, I understood you were just asking out of curiosity. No worries! |
Andersonhdj
| | Posted on Friday, September 20, 2013 - 06:50 pm: |
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Hey man! i watched your vids , i would'nt be concerned about the smoke at this time , it's possibly just a byproduct of not having run for an extended period.
What i am concerned with is the fact that your fuel supply appears to stop after delivering 50 odd mls.
When your pump comes on it should continue pumping to a test pressure of around 3.1 to 3.5 bar at which point it would stop, this would be engine off but ign and kill switch in the run position.
Now i might have the cat by the tail here , but logically if the pump does'nt see that pressure it should continue pumping in an attempt to reach setpoint , hence my concern at the little amount of fuel delivered.
Anybody out there that can correct me if i'm wrong please chime in here!!
Just BTW , do you have a manual at your disposal? |
Smiles
| | Posted on Friday, September 20, 2013 - 06:56 pm: |
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I have a manual right next to me.
I'm thinking a fuel pump test might find some answers.
(Message edited by Smiles on September 20, 2013) |
Andersonhdj
| | Posted on Friday, September 20, 2013 - 07:12 pm: |
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Great, i was just wondering, i have a pdf which i could have emailed if you did'nt!
I think we've got it down to fuel delivery for sure!
I'll do some research tomorrow when my 56yr old eyes are better! Off to bed for me , it's past 1 am , least it's Saturday! |
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