| Author | Message | ||
     Littlebuggles |
SO I finally acquired a working copy of ECM Spy and promptly began abusing my bike with it. It no longer runs. First I reset the TPS without dialing back the idle adjuster. Then I tried cranking back the adjuster, but couldn't see any change in voltage when I turned it back a ways... so I hit the tps reset button again since I'd already bunged it up, thinking maybe it would have been close to the zero setting for the thing anyway... Now it won't start at all, when I gave it a little gas trying to start it, then it acted like it might start, until I wore out the battery trying it some more. Can anyone direct me towards a method for finding true zero and going from there to properly reset my tps, now that I've bunged it all up? Sheesh, I just want to ride for the occasional day it's been nice around here. Can't afford this gas in my truck! | ||
| Terrys1980 |
I've had the bike do that before from a botched TPS reset, it's not the end of the world. What procedure are you following? • Turn ignition on and set kill switch to the run position • Turn out this screw until the throttle voltage doesn't decrease any more • Keep winding the screw two additional turns • Close the throttle with light clockwise pressure on the throttle grip. The butterfly is fully closed if it sticks inside the manifold. It's essential, that this is done with care, as the TPS reset needs to be done with the butterfly fully closed! • Click the "Reset TPS ..." button to perform TPS calibration • Turn idle adjustment cable clockwise until TPS degrees read 5.2 - 5.6 degrees. This setting is just to make the engine start and needs to be adjusted to correct idle speed with a warm engine afterwards. • Run vehicle until engine temperature is at least 140 °C or 285 °F • Set idle speed to 1050-1150 min Once you get it to run again, I would let it warm up completely and do another TPS reset. | ||
| Littlebuggles |
Thanks Terry, your fast response is really appreciated! I used the procedure I found the instructions for reset on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i33__Qkvhn4&feature =results_main&playnext=1&list=PL029C6D654769AE97 That's the video that I found for mtnkwby on the xb board, seemed pretty basic but I still managed to screw it up  I fiddled with the idle adjuster and clockwise and counter, but never saw the voltage change, so I reset it again at a couple random points, that's when it failed to start. I'm just worried I'll be dialing an adjustment screw all the way out of a fitting if I keep messing with it. It's feeling like I should not be allowed to work on my bikes right now... well, battery should be charged now, I plugged it into the float charger overnight. I'll plug back in and turn the adjuster clockwise and watch for voltage to show, once I find something I'll dial it back two turns and follow your procedure holding the throttle shut and hopefully get it right this time. At least I can do this part in my garage, there's a storm blowing in and the temperature is dropping quickly Wish me luck!  | ||
| Terrys1980 |
One thing I do is pull the headlight fuse when messing around with ECMSpy. It will save you from killing the battery. I have a lot of free time when I am offshore at work. I spend the majority of my 12 hr shift on the computer. | ||
| Littlebuggles |
Okay, I think I mighta did it right this time. It's kinda the middle of the night though, so I'll warm it up and set the idle in the morning. Great tip on the headlight too. Thanks again! If it starts, I can start figuring out why it dies with throttle since I ran it out of gas. Fuel values seem okay but I'm still learning my way around the software. Might be a dirty filter too, that was my first thought. I really don't want to have to rotate the motor again. Do you know anything about Tunerpro Terry? | ||
| Terrys1980 |
I can read and burn EEPROMS/maps with it. But I haven't gotten my maps to look right or done any logging with it. Once you do get the hang of it, TP can do a lot more than ECMSpy. | ||
| Littlebuggles |
I've read here that TP is more versatile for fueling work. Well, I got the TPS done right and the bike seems to be idling properly. However, cannot do more than crack the throttle and the bike stumbles and dies. I did a print screen when it died last. Not sure how to post that image, would posting the ECM run time screen help diagnose fueling errors?. | ||
| Terrys1980 |
There could be a number of reasons why the bike would stumble when you crack the throttle. How long has it been since the bike actually ran like it should? Did it run correctly before you did the TPS reset? A TPS is not the end all fix for anything like some seem to think. You really only need to do a TPS reset if you are swapping out the ECM or making making tweaks inside the firmware. You can just hit upload attachedment or use a website such as photobucket to host it and just link to it on here. The help section explains how to embed photos and videos. | ||
| Littlebuggles |
It was doing this before the TPS reset too, but it ran right before I parked it for a few months until I got the rocker box gaskets replaced. If it was a car I would go straight to the fuel filter. I ran the thing nearly dry and thought it was behaving like the original DDFI does when tubers run out of gas, getting stuck in an enrichment mode of some sort. But as far as I've read here the xb's don't do this. The bike was low on fuel when I parked it, then sat for maybe five months while I rode the other one. Battery was off the bike on a float charger. I hooked it all back up and didn't get a fuel light until it was stalling out. I think I'm going to put a little sea foam or injector cleaner in it and see if it helps. Bike runs okay cold but chokes and dies with throttle input once warm. That's what makes me scratch my head. | ||
| Terrys1980 |
You need to drain the tank and put new gas if it's been in there for 5 months. If you can try to find a gas station that doesn't have ethanol. I've used Seafoam before. I put some in the tank and I take the filter off and while it's running let it suck it directly into the throttle body. While you are in there you can clean off the butterflay and throttle body. | ||
| Littlebuggles |
I filled (with fresh 91 octane, it's the best we have around here) it after running it almost completely dry. I haven't found any stations without the ethanol blend in this state. The station I prefer when in Idaho has regular fuel and my truck gets much better mileage with it. I'll try the sea foam then. You just dribble a bit into the intake? I don't recall there being any vacuum line you could use. | ||
| Terrys1980 |
You don't have to really dribble it. You can tell how fast to pour it by the reaction of the engine. I would put the recommended amount in the tank and use the rest through the intake. Here is a website to help you find ethanol free gas. http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=ID | ||
| Littlebuggles |
Great link, thank you! Eight gas stations in the entire state serving clean gas... that's retarded. Maybe I can transfer the stuff in the bike to my truck and go pick up some ethanol free fuel for the bike. Freakin' ethanol bs, prices didn't go down when they watered down our fuel with the stuff and the garbage burns less efficiently besides. I'd better go work on my bike before I get any more angry. | ||
| Terrys1980 |
I got confused when you said only 8. I was thinking you were from Idaho, that's why I linked to that state. Idaho has 88. | ||
| Littlebuggles |
So I drained (siphoned) my tank into my truck then put seven ounces of sea foam in the xb's tank, then got in my truck and filled a five gallon container of the ethanol free fuel. Then about an hour and a half later filled up the bike's tank. Then sat for a week or so and I finally got down to the garage today, well yesterday now... anyway pulled the cover off and had the bike running, poured some sea foam into the throttle body like you said and thought the bike was working. Geared up, and headed out for a ride around the neighborhood. No good, still can only crack the throttle, esp if the bike is warm, and it coughs or simply tried to die. That's why I tend to think it's a fueling error, not fuel supply (pump or filter). Hell, at this point I'm still not even sure what my ECM spy numbers should look like. This is frustrating. I'm going to read the ECMSpy guide thoroughly, then try to figure out who to call from there. I may have to break down and go to the dealer to see if they can do anything for me. Thanks for your help so far, just venting right now I guess. | ||
| Littlebuggles |
Alright, reset my AFV to 100%, don't know that it needed it. Cold start enrichment is 172% seems a bit high but what do I know? Did a diagnostic via ecmspy on the fuel pump and it checked out okay. Getting an error code for the exhaust valve and the brake lights aren't working (Erik told me they are on the same fuse so I should be careful if it blows since I'd loose my brake lights) Fuse looks okay though, I double checked it with a continuity tester and it's good. I wonder if rotating the valve control manually so I could remove the cable bunged it up? Diagnostic test on it won't complete, it tried to operate but only goes up to 40%. Could this be why it's dying over 3K rpms when warm? Still doesn't explain why the brakes won't light though. Fuses check out okay with a continuity test. Got any suggestions for me? | ||
| Sparky |
Re brake light, I'd take the bulb out of the socket and check for 12 VDC on the contacts. Also bulb could have a burned out brake filament. | ||
| Littlebuggles |
Silly me, I'll check the bulb. Thanks for bringing me back to the basics. | ||
| Al_lighton |
The exhaust valve actuator has to reach the far end of travel to not throw a code. The ECM puts 12V to the motor, and a hall effect sensor at the end of travel signals the ECM that the actuator worked. If it doesn't see the sensor signal, it will throw the code. I don't think you can rotate it manually without breaking it. I haven't had one apart, but I think the gearset inside of it won't let it be rotated from outside (worm gear? not sure). Someone that has disassembled one will chime in on that.... | ||
| Littlebuggles |
Thanks Al, that is interesting. I rotated the actuator a bit to get the cable installed when I reassembled the bike. Maybe I broke it then. One of the guys locally told me he broke his actuator by rotating it manually. Said something like the older units had plastic gears and newer ones had a better, maybe metal gear-set; but Mr. Buell thought that didn't sound right. Maybe just operating it manually throws the gears off to where it doesn't activate the sensor? I had the opportunity to talk to him at the track a couple years ago and told him I'd burned a fuse out but loved the bike otherwise, that led into a brief discussion on the actuator and brake lights. I tried something last night, which was to turn the ignition to on, rotate the throttle full on, then rotate back off, then switch the kill switch to run. This does an actuator function test, I don't recall where I learned that but had forgotten it until I began reading the manuals last niht... I couldn't find the procedure there so gave it a shot anyway. The actuator worked then. I turned the ign off and back on to check for trouble codes through the ecm using the engine light indicator rather than plugging into it again. There were no codes present at that time. I checked the bike over considering testing the voltage to the tail-light prior to removing the bulb. The spade connector for the brakes was off. The fitting is very loose and must have come off when I pulled the seat off to do some more work on it. Embarrassing. The little things keep tripping me up and I can't seem to got to sorting out what the real problem actually is. Since the bike didn't throw any codes I'll start it up again and see how it does. Plug in ecmspy again after it's warm if it pulls the same issues with the throttle. I keep thinking I'm going to have to pull the fuel pump. Since the bike didn't give a low fuel light until it was stalling out I'm starting to think maybe the pump's filter is gummed up. | ||
| Littlebuggles |
Got a hand rolling it out of the garage this morning. Started it up and ran it until warm. It still will not run with any throttle once warm. all the other numbers look good. It was 62F out when I started it so it only had the cold enrichment at 127%. AFV was 100%. There is an air density correction of 106% presumably due to the elevation here. I think I need to pull the fuel pump. I'll check the plugs but think it would start hard or give other indicators if they were the problems. I'm open to suggestions. Thanks! | ||
| Al_lighton |
Watch the ECMspy runtime screen, and start it cold and watch the head temp. Does it monotonically rise without any glitching the whole time? And does it jump at all, up or down, when you give it gas? Al's three rules of motorcycle mechanics: 1) It's a ground problem until proven otherwise. 2) It's related to the last thing that YOU (or the mechanic) worked on. and 3) If it's a Buell, and it isn't 1 or 2, it's the freakin head temp sensor. Seriously, I've seen that stupid sensor cause more problems than anything. | ||
| Littlebuggles |
Thanks Al, I watched the temp reading come up incrementally as the bike came up to operating temp. I didn't blip the throttle (this morning) as that has not been the problem previously, it's only when up to temp (200F+) that it won't accept any throttle input (serious stumble or dies). Anyway there was no jumping around of the temp reading, just a steady increase as you'd expect while the bike warmed up. I watched closely, hoping for some indicator of what the problem might be if it persisted. Originally I wondered if it was a temp sensor problem too. I thought I hadn't plugged it in right when reassembling the bike so I pulled the airbox off to check all the wiring connections. Figuring unplugged sensor was throwing off the fueling ratios. So judging by your rules I think I'm on course. I can't recall loosening any ground wires, did the engine rotation by the book, and reassembled the bike that way as well. I was pretty careful to follow the book since I'm not that familiar with XB mechanics and such yet, and the job was stretched out over a long period of time. That's what leads to my conclusion that it's related to something I did (#2). I didn't realize how low the bike was on gas when I parked it prior to doing the rocker boxes. It took several month's with very little gas in the tank (Sept/Nov-Feb) once assembled I rode it maybe a mile before it acted as if it was completely out of gas and tried to die in traffic. I limped it into a station and filled it up. Four gallons or so, so it was pretty much dry. Fuel light only came on as it was stalling out - low fuel switch gummed up due to low fuel level and old gas? Seems like sitting for that long, with little gas (ethanol blend at that), then running it on that fuel may have bunged up the fuel filter, really think just the sitting at low level could have done that. I've done rocker box gaskets on my Cyclone enough to have that part of the job be easy so I don't think I screwed anything up there... it was the whole unhook everything and rotate the engine that took me a while to get through. Then bike sat a little longer while I explored my options for treating the rusty exhaust. Now that the exhaust valve actuator seems okay I thought I've probably got a bunged up fuel filter, it's only letting so much gas through, and once the bike is running at proper temp the enrichment isn't enough to push an adequate amount of fuel through to the injectors. Or perhaps the injectors are partially plugged. I could be totally wrong on all points though. I'm really not making much progress. There is fresh, high octane, non-ethanol gas with Sea-foam mixed in the tank now though. I figured I'd leave it until Mon, I'm hoping the doc clears me for more activity (had my appendix out this last Sunday), and siphon the fuel out and drop the pump for a look at it then. I guess I can pull the injectors without having to rotate the motor again, right? If I can't find anything definitive at that point I'll have to take it to a shop I think. (Message edited by littlebuggles on March 31, 2012) | ||
| Littlebuggles |
Bah. Effen friggin motorcycle! M2 needs the clutch replaced so I really want to get this done and get back to wrenching on my easy bike. Gears and stuff are neat, emc's and computers and stuff make my head hurt. Fuel pump has been rebuilt. Filter and o-rings for the pressure reg were found at O'Reilly auto parts, prefilter/sock thingy and all the brown o-rings came from Al. Pump is working fine. I started the bike and let it idle until warm. Cracked the throttle and it died. Restarted it and it ran for a couple seconds then dies all on it's own and would not start again. I did a print screen at that time (diagnostics screen) and have it save as a Word doc with time and temp and such as well as the Celsius temp translated into Fahrenheit (C x1.8+32= F) If anyone's willing to give that data a gander I'll email the .doc attachment. Al, starting the bike from cold, if there are number jumps when it warms, does that indicate a ground problem, or bad sensor? Is there any way to bench test the temp sensor and O2 sensor to verify they are functional? I'm assuming the head temp reading is based on impedance through a material that improves conductivity based on it's current temp. Jumping numbers could mean the signal sporadic as it's grounding intermittently, or it could mean the sensor is not communicating to the ECM properly the signal that it's sending? Or does the ECM simply calculate the temp through the amount of signal that returns from that specific sensor? Anyway, I'm going to go plug in and start the bike cold and watch the bike warm up until it dies again and see what I see on that temp gauge. I'm getting /u{really} proficient in removing the air box, but gotta clear the way so I can get to the O2 and temp sensors. | ||
| Al_lighton |
Have you done the wiggle test on the head temp sensor lead? If you grab the lead to the head temp sensor and wiggle it around while the bike is running, and that has any effect on the head temp reading, it's a bad sensor. The temp reading should never jump. It'll go up and down with different slopes depending on load and such, but it should NEVER jump. Al | ||
| Littlebuggles |
Thanks AL, airbox is off now so I'll try that in the morning. So far I've only seen it jump by a degree or two, for instance it read 24C as it warmed but skipped 25 and went to 26C. AS it warmed it would skip a degree or two more often, but never any huge leaps in the reading on the ecm runtime screen. I had trouble getting this sensor plugged back in when I initially put it back together so that was the one I was specifically concerned about w when I double checked the plugs. Mike | ||
| Littlebuggles |
So I pulled the airbox and plugged in, then started the bike let it warm for a couple seconds and started wiggling the temp sensor wire, gave it a good general futzing and never saw a glitch on the temp reading. So I unplugged it, was at about 60C then. let it run for a few seconds with no reading then plugged it back in and gave it a few more shakes and a wiggle. Hit the throttle a few times throughout all this and throttle response was perfect, after an initial cough (almost a back-fire sort of noise) through the throttle body the first time I gave it some gas. Once it went into closed loop mode I gave it a few twists of the throttle, it went into open mode briefly (less than a second) then back into closed and still responded to throttle properly. So I started buttoning it back up and got it reassembled just as the storm showed up. Seems okay now, with the cover back on. Bike has been on the side stand for all this stuff. Next step, after the storm blows through, is to take it for a ride. I think if I have a problem again I need to check the side stand safety switch. Could be the was some kind of blockage in the tb or and injector that blew through with that cough too. Will post up what I find out, hopefully tomorrow. Fingers crossed and stuff. | ||
| Littlebuggles |
Well I had the bike out for an hour on Friday and she ran fine. I kept getting nervous, whenever I'd slow or stop, that it wasn't gonna want to go again, but it ran fine. Now I just wish I knew if it was something in the fuel system that finally shook loose with that cough through the throttle body. Or if is was my modified Al technique so I could have a better idea just WTH happened. I'll be riding it to work tomorrow so I hope it's gonna keep running properly for me. | ||
| Fordhotline |
Little, How has your bike been running? Sounds like i am experiencing same problem. My bike was running fine. Slight surge from 2000 to 2500 rpm but that was fine. I performed a TPS reset using ECM spy and my bike will not idle right. I have popping from the intake and a rolling idle and stalls. Above 3000 seems to run fine. Only thing i touched was the tps reset. Tried a few times them my idle cable broke for the plate (rust). Cable in on order, but i can adjust cable with a needle nose plies. I threw intake gaskets and plugs at it and still runs like crap. WTF | ||
| Littlebuggles |
My bike is running great now Curtis. I was ready to spend the money to have the dealership look at it, then take it in for a trade. I was eyeballing some neat adventure type Beemers and Triumphs. After a few test rides and some longer rides I've put away my indignation and torn into the M2 again for clutch replacement and to fix my poorly engineered wiring attempt from this winter. Sounds like a combo of hardware and software with your bike. Terry's response to my original post gives a great breakdown on the tps reset procedure. Once you've got the bike warmed up you might want to give it another go following his instructions - clear up at the top of this thread. How many miles on your bike? Are you encountering another problem in conjunction with the reset. Have you burned through the fuel you started the problem with? I got wrapped up in all the details and forgot to keep it simple. Thankfully good folks here helped set me straight on that stuff. |
