| Author | Message | ||
     Mikej |
Bill, 1) I don't know what comes in the "kit", but I just bought the lower gaskets and reused the rubbers and fibers up above. 2) There is an offset Snap-On part/tool mentioned in the service manual, but I can never get a Snap-on truck to stop for me so I did something else. I won't suggest how important the torques of those bolts are. 3) Work on one head at a time. After you get the uppermost thin cover off you can then watch the rockers rock. Stop rotating the engine when the rockers show both valves fully closed, usually right at TDC on the fire stroke. Then disassemble and reassemble and button that head back up. You can rotate the engine by turning the back tire with the tranny in 4th or 5th gear and with the spark plugs removed to ensure you have the pushrods properly seated in the rocker pockets. 4) Some do, some don't, I didn't, you may or may not want to depending on your personal past experiences and your mood at the time, and your projected mood at any future point in time where you may be removing the covers again. (I'm practicing long sentences because I have a term paper due, supposed to be 10-15 pages and I only got 8 pages, so I'm wondering if the instructor will know that I'm extending the sentences.) | ||
| Reepicheep |
OK... Thanks Mike, now quit screwing around on the internet and get back to work on that term paper  I think I figured out how to torque down the allen bolts at the top. I will take an old socket (one I have a dup of) and drill a hole straight through the sides of it that will fit the allen wrench handle snugly. I will put the allen wrench on the bolt, and put the handle through the drilled socket, then calculate what percentage longer in length I made my torque wrench and adjust the torque setting down by that same percentage. I think this will work, it all should be linear. Kind of a kludge, but it should get me close enough to where I want to go with a minimal amount of fuss. Geeesh!... I am cutting off wrenches and drilling holes in sockets... Owning a Buell changes you! Next thing you know I will be looking to buy a welder.... Bill | ||
| Mikej |
Bill, I think that's basically what the special tool from Snap-on is, an offset and a chart telling you what percentage to adjust the torque wrench to. I know I've seen the formula in the Machinist's Handbook as well. | ||
| Svangeldern |
Ok, last summer I changed my tranny oil and removed the clutch cover to check the fill level. No problem. Recently I purchased one of those cool (I think) Pagasus covers and when I went to take the cover off I stripped one of those damn Torx screws. What do I do now? I'm thinking of grinding a slot and attacking it with a screw driver.. Any thoughts? Steve | ||
| Airborne |
Go to your local Sears or hardware store and purchase a "easy out". They come in different sizes. One part is a drill bit the other part looks like a left hand twist auger. Some "easy outs" will attach to a socket wrench driver or comes with it's own driver. Drill directly into the screw at dead center. Don't punch all the way through you run the risk of damaging other parts on the inside. Insert the easy out into the drilled hole and turn to loosen. I'll pass on a hard learned lesson from experience. Use liquid wrench or WD-40 on tough bolts and screws before they get stripped. Just give it a little time to work. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I did that same stupid thing... but it got worse... the easy out snapped off in the bolt. Now what????? How do you drill out hardened steel? In my case, I was not familiar with using Torx bolts, and used a bit one size too small (which appeared to bite fine until it stripped the thing out to be unusable). I don't know why on earth someone would design a fastener that was so easy to make such a serious mistake with. Anyway, I used a dremel tool with a thin abrasive disk to create a slot on both sides of the protruding broken easyout tip, put a small steel punch up against my notch, and tapped carefully at an angle with a hammer to slowly rotate it. It does not take much of a notch if you have a small punch. Boy was I relieved when that thing started to turn... Scary scenario. My local Harley dealer (which is both closer and much more helpfull then my local Buell dealer) had allen head replacements (chromed of course ) in stock. They said it happens all the time, and the first thing they do is ditch the torx bolts. So easy with the easyout... and I would recommend getting a smaller one rather then a bigger one so you can get more of it into the bolt before it bites (making it less likely to shear). Or try the pounding on the notch thing first, as you can always try the easy out later if that does not work. Bill | ||
| Al_Lighton |
Let me guess...it was the third or fourth torx screw you were removing that stripped, right? When you loosen the first two, the pressure from the gasket below the cover cocks (heh..heh...he said cock) the cover a bit and binds the third or fourth screw. Doesn't take much on an already tight screw to be too much for that stupid torx head. For those particular screws, you can just drill the head off the bolt, pull the cover, and the screw will probably thread out BY HAND!! If not, some channel locks or vise grips will get the remander of the bolt out, and you can then replace it with a decent screw. Torx screws are the work of the devil, I'm quite sure of it. Al | ||
| Sparky |
Reminds me of a story. I broke a Sears Torx wrench trying to remove one stuck/overtorqued cover screw so I took the bike back to Bartels' (after they did a 20k service) to replace the screw. The service writer (who no longer handles Buell service, BTW) had the audacity to suggest it was my fault for breaking the wrench. He says I should have used an impact driver, the kind you hit with a hammer, to shock the screw loose! "Why?", I said, "It is only supposed to be torqued 7-9 ft/lbs." I took his idea to heart though. Whenever I feel the screw exceeding normal torque through my, ahem, calibrated fingers, I resort to the impact driver. Works for me. Sparky | ||
| Svangeldern |
Thanks guys. I like to think of myself as a fairly competent mechanic and the stripping of screws and bolts......well only idiots do that Steve Al, finally got a couple hundered miles on my cut cam cover (less rear dowel) and no oil leaks yet. My gut feeling is I'll be O.K. until I actually have to remove and install the cover for some reason. How about you? | ||
| Al_Lighton |
No leaks on mine....I've seen way to many race bikes with the cam cover cut down to be too concerned about the fact that mine doesn't engage that rear dowel pin. Hard to imagine that 4 camshaft journals, 1 front dowel, and over a dozen screws won't keep things from shifting around. Al | ||
| Buellzebub |
i've heard from my mechanic [hoser] that you don't have to really worry about the extra dowel pin until you want to go to more aggressive cams. just keep an eye on it as the rocking motion may extrude the gasket. high lift cams tend to cause the cover to walk around more, the second dowel prevents this. so... its probably a good idea to leave the dowel in place, even though it is not as pretty as the single dowel version. | ||
| Chuck |
Speaking of dowel pins, On Monday,I developed a primary cover leak on the 9 mile commute to work. I checked the torque of all the screws; and they were okay. By Tuesday, on the ride home, I had lost my rear brake due to the large amount of oil blowing out. Anyway, as I'm repairing the mess, I notice that the dowel pins are really "sloppy" in both the engine and the cover; but when I compared things on an engine my friend had torn down, those dowel pins were loose, too . . . I mean, why bother having them  Oh well . . . at least I got a cool black cover and a new style chain tensioner because of the "ordeal" | ||
| Ralph |
Al, you need to rethink the roll the cam journals play in keeping the cam cover in place. They are exactly what is pushing the cover out of place. Also, racers are not worried about gasket longevity. Most importantly, as long as you're not having a problem then there's nothing to sweat about. I'm running some fairly tall cams so it was a concern for me. bighairyralph | ||
| Svangeldern |
Ralph, Have you fired that puppy up yet? Steve | ||
| Al_Lighton |
Oh immense follically endowed one, Yea, I know what you're saying, and I think I should've said "Hard to imagine that a COUPLE camshaft journals, 1 front dowel, and...". At worst case, how many cam lobes are substantially engaged at the same time on a sporty engine? I'd think (and I really have no friggin idea about any of this, of course!) that the cams that weren't engaged would be helping to react any loads induced by the cam lobes that were (like huge spinning precision fit dowel pins). But maybe having them react those cantilever loads wears the journals prematurely. Or maybe there is enough micromotion to prematurely extrude the gasket. God know harley gaskets don't need much of an excuse to leak. Oh well, it looks good, and as you said, no worries until/unless it does. And it it ever makes itself into trouble, before something else blows up, it'll only make me have to go ride my wife's S3 for a while while I build an engine like the one you're crafting! That'd be a bummer if I had to do that! Al | ||
| Ralph |
Steve, fire has happend, but I ain't movin' nowhere till I gets me a sprocket! I must be good, the girl thinks it sounds like crap. bighairyralph | ||
| S2no1 |
Steve, Ahem, you are not alone. Now where's the easy out. (It must be contagious, watch out.) Ralph, So it doesn't have a smooth idle. Bet it'll go like a bat out of hell. Arvel | ||
| Ralph |
Al, I really don't mean to harp on this but your colorful like huge spinning precision fit dowel pins I just couldn't pass up. In a way that's part of my problem. It seems to me (if they are indeed spinning dowels pins) that there is an increased load being put on the cam bearings. An increased load which will eventually (stress on that last word) 'cause problems. Does the size of the cam matter? I don't know, I really don't thinks it does. Bumps are bumps. It would have more to do with the valve spring pressure. Of course it follows that bigger bumps have higher pressure. As far as the dozen bolts go, take one out and wiggle around in the cover, there is no shear support there. So to make a short story long (beat that horsey ) it's working so why sweat it. By the way, there's a cam cover for twenty bucks at ebay. Just in case. Sorry Al, if we were in the same room that would have been no more than an elbow in your ribs and a smile. Damn key boards make me talkative. Arvel, it idles just fine. What the chicky doesn't like is the exhaust tone. For some odd female reason she thought it would be deeper and more Harley like (hehehehehe). I tried to 'splain to her the bike was moving fifteen percent more air through the same 'lil exhaust so it has a higher pitch. Maybe when I have the new exhaust built (aaarrrghghgh, Ralph want nowwww!!!) she'll be happier with the deeper tone. bighairyralph | ||
| Al_Lighton |
BHR, I felt the ribs and saw the smile. I also saw that cam cover and may buy it if it stays cheap. Might need to to build that mountain motor some day. Al | ||
| Reepicheep |
Well, I replaced the rear rocker box gasket. Nobody local had the replacement metal gaskets in stock, and the first two places I called acknowledged the problem but indicated they had the best luck sticking with the factory style gaskets. I considered this a "practice" run anyway, so just picked up the factory gaskets and rubber bits so I could get them in this weekend and get back on the road. In hindsight, I probably did not need new rubber bits, but they were cheap so it is easy insurance. I only did the rear (leaking) rocker box, it's not that hard to get in there if I later have to do the front, and I wanted to see if the factory gaskets would really hold on the back before messing with the front as well. I think the rear cylinder has the hardest time and will fail first. If the rear fails again, I will then go to the James / Cometic gaskets and do both at once. Until then, I ride the bike. Insights? Well, it is really not that bad a job, so long as you are patient and methodical. I simply cut down an allan wrench to get the one bolt obstructed by the frame... it was a little annoying but not overly difficult. I did not feel the need to remove the carb and aircleaner to do the rear, I just pulled the tank, seat, and tailsection. To torque everything back in, I used a torque wrench for the 6 or so bolts I could get too, then used the Mark I calibrated thumb to adjust the remaining two obstructed bolts. In other works, I just torqued the bolts I could reach with the torque wrench, then use a normal wrench to back them off a little, and them move them back into the same position. Repeat until you have a good feel for how hard to push, then move on to the obstructed bolt. I feel like I probably got pretty close. I took my time to let the pressure bleed down when tightening, and followed the recommended "clean room" practices on the gasket surfaces. A good sharp chisel (sanded to a perfectly flat and sharp edge with 1200 grit sandpaper) was very helpfull to get the old gasket material off (which still turned out to be a lot of work). I then used electrical contact cleaner to get all oil off the remaining surfaces, and roughed them up slightly with the same 1200 grit paper. Amazing that I could go that far (for me anyway) into an engine in an evening with simple tools and get it back together successfully. Put about 50 miles on it afterwards, and no signs of leaks yet... so far so good. And, as much as I am annoyed by the simple little problems, I don't think I ever had a more satisfying ride on a motorcycle then the one I took after taking my engine apart far enough to hold a pushrod in my hand, carefully and lovingly reassembling it, and firing it back up for the first time to hear it growling along perfectly. This bike is changing me. Bill | ||
| Blake |
Bill, you are a damn poet! Thanks for relating that. Blake (tearing up) | ||
| Chuck |
Well done young William . . . We're all proud of you. Believe it or not, you'll probably always do a better job than most shops would take time to do, even if you've never done that task before. The main trick is "knowing" when to ask questions. This board is great for that... Thanks Blake. | ||
| Blake |
Your welcome Chuck. (sniffle) Of course y'all are what make this board rock, so thank you back at ya! | ||
| Aaron |
I absolutely love Bill's post. He thought it through and applied his own logic, not necessarily walking in lockstep with how anyone else does it. He's bonding with his bike, too. | ||
| Rickie |
Aaron, In a move to self-police myself, this digressing dialogue from the 2002 engine speculation/dreaming section is posted here instead. What peaked my interest was evacuation of the trans/primary with poor scavenging, assuming the oil pump as the source of the vacuum, but I can understand how a well-sealed crankcase can take a pull from the primary with pistons approaching TDC. I had a similar situation with my 79" motor when it was fresh. It sucked the primary/trans dry, and I mean dry, twice in less than 600 miles before I found the problem. After the first time I questioned the engineer that built the engine and the primary seal was deemed the culprit. I reluctantly replaced the seal and the engine promptly guzzled another pint from the primary. It was not a seal. It turns out that Zippers Pro-Flow 3 stage oil pump (and possibly ring seal) was sucking the transmission oil past the fasteners that held the flywheel scraper in place. The flat washers used on the fasteners did not offer enough of a seal against the casting surface of the crankcase/trans bulkhead. You wouldn’t think that slight of a surface texture would present such a problem, but it did. I discovered the problem after pulling the tranny cassette, sealing the engine, and pressurizing it with 10PSI to reveal the culprits with a little soapy water. Spot facing the walls, Stato-seal washers or a sealant would have prevented the problem. To elevate the problem with out tearing down the engine, I cleaned the fasteners with solvent, painted them with several coats of Yamabond (gasp), and she was good to go. R | ||
| Reepicheep |
Until the speedo sensor blows again, then I will again not be on speaking terms with the bike for a while. Another great tip for somebody doing the rocker box replacement was over on the ATC forum. To tell if you have had let the pressure bleed down enough before continuing to tighten the bolts when reinstalling the lower rocker box, try and turn the pushrods with your fingers. When the pressure has bled out, they will spin easily. I was done with my job before I heard this tip, so I can't vouch if it works or not, but it sounds good, and I seem to remember something similiar in the service manual. I took somebody elses advice on this board, and just lit up a good cigar, and took my sweet time putting them back in. Seems to have worked, and if I end up redoing things, it is not a huge deal. Getting the old gasket off was by far the most tedious part of the job. Bill | ||
| Chuck |
scraping gaskets sucks! | ||
| Jimc |
paint remover, the watery kind not the paste, applied to the gaskets will help loosen/soften them up. NOTE - if it will remove paint it will ruin most plastics and some rubbers - be neat | ||
| Jmartz |
Chuck: There is spray on ether based remover that works wonders. They sell it at pep kids. | ||
| Chuck |
Do you know of something similar that I could "brush" on, so that I don't make a mess? |
