| Author | Message | ||
     Stealthxb |
huh huh... he said orifice  | ||
| Firebolt020283 |
ok so its kinda like a water hose with out a nozel on it water comes out at a sertin voulme but u put the novel on it, it still comes out at the same voulume but a higher velosity is that hitting in the area???????? | ||
| R1DynaSquid |
ok so its kinda like a water hose with out a nozel on it water comes out at a sertin voulme but u put the novel on it, it still comes out at the same voulume but a higher velosity Well actually now you have restricted the flow which in turn will cause backpressure in the hose & will force the water out at a greater velocity but the actual amount of water coming out will be less. | ||
| Firebolt020283 |
but thats the idea that blake is getting at though right? | ||
| Blake |
The high velocity of which Dyna speaks comes into play within the intake tract design as a whole, not at the discreet inlet orifice, which is what we are discussing. What Dyna mentions relates to the idea that if you can keep from causing too much additional pressure loss, a higher flow velocity going into the combustion chamber is a very good thing. "Speed or velocity"? Please explain the difference between those two quantities Dyna. Yes there is a difference... if you are familiar with engineering or physics. And please tell us how do you describe "volume" in transient compressible fluid flow? edited by blake on July 27, 2004 | ||
| Blake |
Dyna, "Well actually now you have restricted the flow which in turn will cause backpressure in the hose..." Please stop. edited by blake on July 27, 2004 | ||
| R1DynaSquid |
How do you describe "volume" in transient compressible fluid flow? In my line of work its strictly based on pounds per hour & pounds per revolution. The molten plastic is pretty fluid & is definitely compressible. But there are several things that will affect the flow.. Screw design & how much of a tolerance we have between it & the barrel. Speed of the screw Temperature of the material Type of material Screen pack type etc, etc. If we can control all of these optimally we can minimize the delta T & we get the best flow. If any single part of the recipe is off, the flow will not be uniform. | ||
| R1DynaSquid |
Well actually now you have restricted the flow which in turn will cause backpressure in the hose..." Please stop. Explain to me how thats incorrect. | ||
| M1combat |
Speed is time and distance. Velocity is the same but add a vector. I think  . Volume in transient compressible fluid flow... Hmmm... The average mass passing a point in a given time? Got me. How? "ok so its kinda like a water hose with out a nozel on it water comes out at a sertin voulme but u put the novel on it, it still comes out at the same voulume but a higher velosity" Yes, I'm pretty sure that's what he's getting at. | ||
| Blake |
Yes, the correct term is "flow" and it is measured in mass/time-interval. I don't know if your statement above is right or wrong; you'll need to first explain to me what "backpressure" is. Regardless, water is incompressible. Your plant's plastic flow is characterized as compressible? I doubt that very very much. | ||
| M1combat |
"Well actually now you have restricted the flow which in turn will cause backpressure in the hose..." Please stop. " First of all you won't create "backpressure" in the hose. Second, I think Blake is just trying to tell you to be more on topic. As he said, we were discussing an inlet orifice. Not a hose (or a shape like it). The only part of that system I can think of that would be LIKE what we are discussing would be the "discreet inlet orifice" of the hose that would be at the water tank. Correct me if I'm wrong . | ||
| M1combat |
Maybe they have rubber in their plastic?  | ||
| R1DynaSquid |
Maybe they have rubber in their plastic? Actually some do have an elastomizer in them. And yes Blake the plastic is compressible....it starts out as pellets & without heat...both from barrel heats & shear heat from friction..along with compression from the screw it would never flow. Plastic is compressible because its not a 100% solid material. Even the pellets themselves have air in them and we are never able to get all of the air out. You dont see it in the finished product because the voids are microscopically small, but the material itself will compress. As he said, we were discussing an inlet orifice. Not a hose (or a shape like it). Firebolt brought up the hose analogy. And once again explain to me why you wont create backpressure in the hose? I realize the pressure will not increase just in the hose either, but all the way back into your house, up the meter & beyond. Its no different than if you are taking a shower & someone flushes the toilet. Or say you are taking a shower while someone is using the dishwasher, as soon as the washer finishes the pressure goes up because you have now "put a nozzle on the end of the hose". | ||
| Darthane |
LOL...Firebolt, now see what you've gone and done? | ||
| Glitch |
The plastic isn't 100% devoid of air. You're not compressing plastic, you're compressing the air trapped in the plastic. Ain't much air, granted, but when you're processing plastic it comes into play, and to keep from confusing matters they say the plastic is compressed. OK back on subject. Thanks Blake! You draw well. Any way this subject has been beat to almost death. Almost I'm still very interested. There was a link to a java applet that showed flow volume speed and such in one of the velocity stack threads. When I find it I'll post it, it helped me quite a bit to understand. | ||
| Glitch |
Guess Dyna got there before me! Good on ya Dyna! I love these discussions! I love the BadWeB! We all get so into it! | ||
| Zip |
Do you guys have any idea of what you are talking about !?!?!?  | ||
| Darthane |
They like to think they do... | ||
| M1combat |
"Do you guys have any idea of what you are talking about !?!?!? " I like to think I do . I'm always up for correction though. I like to learn. So far though, I don't seem to have said anything incorrect (AFAIK ). | ||
| Glitch |
Hey, I resemble that remark! I do however know way more than I would like to know about plastic and injection molding. Would love to trade what I know about that for motorcycle engineering. | ||
| Henrik |
Don't anyone breathe a word about "Contact Patch" .... Sssssshhh Henrik | ||
| Glitch |
"Contact Patch" This is a much more fun to me than all them folks bein' wrong about the contact patch at full lean!  | ||
| Court |
>>>>Regardless, water is incompressible. Archimedies be damned....it's a lesson best learned from a 3M platform. Blake.....I got's to know.... Subject: Would this way of compressing water (a liquid) work? Date: Tue Jun 8 16:50:04 1999 Posted by Mr. M Grade level: 7-9 School: cant give out City: cant give out State/Province: cant give out Country: US Area of science: Chemistry ID: 928878604.Ch -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: If you were to take 1L of water, boil it, so that all of its steam was in a sealed container, then compress the container down to 1/5 the original size,(thus compressing the steam),then cooling the container (thus condensing all of the water), how would all of the water fit into the new container that is now half of its original size??? | ||
| Court |
Never mind.... Date: Sat Jun 12 11:48:43 1999 Posted By: John Hammond, Faculty, Chemistry, Home Area of science: Chemistry ID: 928878604.Ch -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: Your question seems somewhat mixed up. You refer to a container 1/5 its original size and then state that the container is half its original size. Do you mean 1/5 its original size. Even so the idea would not work. If you attempt to boil water in a closed container the pressure will increase and so will the boiling point of the water. Either the pressure will become so high that the water will not boil, or the container would explode. If you attempt to compress steam, it will turn back into water at a temperature above 100C. So- if you want to turn water into steam the volume of the steam will be many times greater than the volume of the original water. If you then compress the steam, it will condense back to water. Remember that water is a liquid and according to simple kinetic theory, the particles (in this case, water molecules) are touching each other so they cannot be pushed closer together. | ||
| Court |
Hmmmmmm....I now have old text books scattered everywhere....can't we just stick with "contact patch"? Question Can you compress a liquid (water)? Asked by: Guy Matthews Answer The answer is yes, You can compress water, or almost any material. However, it requires a great deal of pressure to accomplish a little compression. For that reason, liquids and solids are sometimes referred to as being incompressible. To understand what happens, remember that all matter is composed of a collection of atoms. Even though matter seems to be very solid, in actuality, the atoms are relative far apart, and matter is mostly empty space. However, due to the forces between the molecules, they strongly resist being pressed closer together, but they can be. You probably have experienced compressing something as hard as steel. Have you ever bounced a steel ball bearing off a sidewalk? When you do that, the 'bounce' is due to compressing the steel ball, just a tiny little spot that comes into contact with the sidewalk. It compresses and then springs back, causing the bounce. The water at the bottom of the ocean is compressed by the weight of the water above it all the way to the surface, and is more dense than the water at the surface. A consequence of compressing a fluid is that the viscosity, that is the resistance of the fluid to flow, also increases as the density increases. This is because the atoms are forced closer together, and thus cannot slip by each other as easily as they can when the fluid is at atmospheric pressure. Answered by: David L. Alexander | ||
| Kds1 |
Yeh, ditto what Court said..... All this education makes my brain boil,then it expands while pushing the last tooth I have out of my mouth, it bounced off the table into a box of cornflakes....well I'll find it in the morning.... Thanks for the schooling, you guys are the best!!!!! | ||
| Blake |
For all intents and purposes, water is incompressible wrt to any fluid mechanics behavior. With extremely high pressure, water may compress an extremely tiny amount, but it is not even remotely germane to any type of engineering analyses dealing with fluid flow that I know. The discussion of water being compressible is one of those just-for-fun kind of topics that has little to no bearing in the practical world. In quite a few scenarios engineers even treat air as incompressible. That is to say, they can accurately characterize its behavior using the physical laws governing incompressible flow. When I say "flow is characterized as compressible " that does not preclude the fluid involved being itself compressible. It means that physical laws for incompressible flow are applicable and adequate to characterize the behavior of the fluid. edited by blake on July 27, 2004 | ||
| Firebolt020283 |
ok check this out does the product work???????? i dont even care how or why cuz yall just gonna go on and on about why (no offence) | ||
| Blake |
Sounds like the FAST system is on to something. For me the verdict is still out on whether the others bring anything to the party beyond what a few simple intake modifications provide. | ||
| Firebolt020283 |
ok sounds good to me |
