| Author | Message | ||
     Reepicheep |
And the data can be made to print a prettier picture if you want as well... in a month of being fairly active and seeking out all possible crank problem, we have found only 9 failed cranks on bikes built across 2005, 2006, and 2007. That's 9 too many, but it's only 9. And not to disparage anyone, but we can't be sure all the documented crank failures were really the same crank failure originating from the same cause. EG.... no air filter (or a deep puddle) will trash the crank on my two strokes in a heart beat.. but I wouldn't expect it to be a big factor on a four stroke. Am I missing something?  | ||
| Johnboy777 |
""And the data can be made to print a prettier picture if you want as well... in a month of being fairly active and seeking out all possible crank problem, we have found only 9 failed cranks on bikes built across 2005, 2006, and 2007. That's 9 too many, but it's only 9. "" You're missing the point here - you can't look at 9 out of all of the bikes ever built (of that year). You need to look at the number relative to the number of forum members (with those years and models effected), A. And B - the number of failures (of forum members) relative to bikes with over 20,000+ miles. 7 or 8 failures for 2007 Ulys put the percentage closer to 2%. That's 1-in-50 Now, take into account, failures of bikes w/ greater than 20,000 miles, and the percentage jumps way up. And we are just getting started - it's just now starting to appear on our radar, as we are putting more and more miles on these bikes, we'll certainly have more crank failures, not less. And so too, a greater percentage of crank failures. This won't get better with time, folks, only worse. . | ||
| Skifastbadly |
From an engine/transmission standpoint, my bike was bone stock. The engine and transmission oil was changed per the recommended schedule, and I ran nothing but the recommended Screaming Eagle synthetic. I changed the oil just before the failure, and I slightly overfilled it, which caused a lot of oil to get blown up into the airbox. The failure was fast. I was about 5 miles from my house coming back when I stated to sense that it just didn't seem to be running right. Putting the gas to it accellerated fine but backing off it just seemed "off". When I garaged it, it sounded like someone was in the front of the engine with a hammer banging it around. The next day it barely started and ran like crap. It quickly deteriorated to 'wouldn't start'. Do I know for sure that I had the same condition as others reported here? No, as I already had paid HD 600 bucks to dig in as far as they could to find the scored pistons and cylinders and get a 2500 estimate to fix the top end without even knowing if the bottom was good or not. I bailed and bought an 08. So, I'm not sure, but it sure seems similar. I did maybe two water crossings in the lifetime of the bike but after I moved to the Northwest I rode it a lot in the rain. I made three electrical modifications: I removed the 77 connector after I blew a VR, and used the underwater pump connections for that. I did the mod where both lights stayed on when the high beam was on...and when I started having electrical ghosts I finally eliminated the wire harness/headlight connector and hard wired that, which cured the issues I was having. I added a GPS that couldn't have done anything. I DID have three ADV stickers, think that's what did it? | ||
| Reepicheep |
I know Johnboy, I was trying to spin a particularly positive interpretation of the data, to offset the really negative interpretation of the data I did earlier. Personally, at this point I'm assuming I am *&%^&$#. Look at where I sit on the table above... | ||
| Buewulf |
The only other Buell rider I know personally here in area (owns a CR and until recently owned a 2007 Uly) told me the XB motor was good for 50K miles tops before it pukes the bottom end. I didn't put much stock into that at the time since it seemed an unreasonably short life for a modern engine, but the trend developing here is very disturbing. One thing he did tell me is that should I ever decide to start tweaking the ECM, don't mess with the skip spark sequence that starts around 6400rpm and never increase the redline. Does the race ECM eliminate the skip-spark or increase the redline any? If so, how many of the failures were running a race ECM or modded ECMs? Just a thought. | ||
| Court |
>>>Am I missing something? Yes . . . the 10 year old. He's fine . . . just buried in mud. | ||
| Froggy |
No, and the skip spark you mention is the soft rev limiter. I do know a guy that increased his redline quite a bit and ran NOS, obviously he destroyed the motor and ended up parting the bike out. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Court, Is Erik Buell Racing actually designing and building a 1190AX bike at this time? When will it be unveiled? | ||
| Johnboy777 |
""I know Johnboy, I was trying to spin a particularly positive interpretation of the data, to offset the really negative interpretation of the data I did earlier. "" Right, There is no positive spin to this situation, possible. It's not a half-full, half-empty observational interpretation. The fact remains, there's been a rash of crank failures and it will only get worse as these bikes get more mileage under their belt. So the question becomes whether to fix the crank, preemptively (based on an Oil Report, or the odds, etc.). Or simply wait for the bottom end to have its catastrophic crank failure while you flying down the freeway some bright sunny day, while you're listening to Joe Cocker belt out 'She came in through the bathroom window'. Maybe a motorcycle sculpture in a corner of the garage - maybe that's the answer here. ... | ||
| Buewulf |
So the question becomes whether to fix the crank, preemptively (based on an Oil Report, or the odds, etc.). Screw that! I don't think I could ever justify spending that kind of dough to fix something that may or may not ever need fixing. If mine goes, I'll probably just remove the plate, file the VIN off and post the coordinates where I abandoned it for any BadWebber that may want to rip something off of the carcass. while you're listening to Joe Cocker belt out 'She came in through the bathroom window'. Good tune, but I'll probably be listening to his version of "Feelin' Alright" at the time, despite the irony.  | ||
| Reepicheep |
We have very strict instructions... if you crash, wave "I'm OK", but you are NOT allowed to get up until we get a picture. That includes Dad... who has a pretty funny picture with a KDX-200 on top of him taken by said 11 year old. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I'm riding mine until I hear the knock, hopefully with other advanced indicators from Blackstone or Amsoil oil analysis. I figure when I redo it, I'll redo top and bottom end with the new crank, then be good for another 70k miles. Works for me. My japanese bikes were clapped out at 50k as well, but not worth rebuilding. At least a 50k clapped out Uly is worth rebuilding.... | ||
| Brucespoint |
I'm with You Reepicheep, if/when "it" happens... It is Worth Rebuilding. Too Much Fun Not Too! Just Did the Northern Ontario Rally with the bunch from ADV, Check out the last pages of the Northern Ontario Rally thread http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=480168&page=42 Had some Excellent Trail rides, made some Believers in What the Uly Can Do, kept up with the KLR's & KTM's on trail's & "Improved" gravel rds... & Toyed W/'em on the pavement&chipseal rds. Only 1 nap, rutted mud after a water crossing... a few Major puckers on rocky downhills, but held my line, cause failure would hurt too Much. XB9 primary/Scorpion Trails, Worked Amazingly Well, even 1st gear climbing a Rocky washout. The Uly is a Keeper. b. (Message edited by brucespoint on September 19, 2011) to get link right!  (Message edited by brucespoint on September 19, 2011) | ||
| Rdkingryder |
I say ride it until it has a problem. Mine is probably going to cost less than $1000 to fix with me doing the work. I think it's worth it. | ||
| Hughlysses |
I think the UOA's will be well worth while, otherwise you could end up like me with shrapnel from the crank chewing up the cylinders and causing more extensive damage. | ||
| Reepicheep |
UOA? So at 30k, if you are tearing down the engine, wouldn't you want to put in new pistons and re-plate the cylinders anyway? Or am I just too used to dirt bikes... So if I hear death knocking (  ), I would be thinking new pistons, rod, crank, valve guides, maybe even valves. And inspect cams and replace any showing significant wear. Basically, replace all the really whirly bits.  I'd replace every seal as well. Then, with the newer crank and crank bearings, I would have the 100k motor that Harley promised Buell and Buell owners to begin with. | ||
| Hughlysses |
UOA = used oil analysis Bill- I think you're too used to dirt bikes. At 30k, the most I would have expected to need on this engine was to hone the cylinders and install new rings, which I think is pretty reasonable. Valve guides should be OK, but definitely all new seals. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
I think when the crank decides to grenade it just does it without any appreciable warning. Probably a gradual wear that meets a threshold and then just, KABOOM, game over. I hope somebody can prove this ad-hoc theory wrong. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Craig- I think you're probably right. It might be the roller cage finally gives up or something similar which results in fairly big fragments getting loose in the engine. Hopefully regular UOA's would give warning sufficiently in advance (sudden increase in metal content) to allow a preemptive rebuild. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Thanks for the acronym decoding! | ||
| Johnboy777 |
I invited both Darkhorse (Habon Bro.) and Revolution Performance, via email, to participate in this thread to see if they could shed some more light on this for us. ... | ||
| Johnboy777 |
Here we go. Hoban Cycle (Darkhorse/Hoban Racing) provided me with the following email, with regard to our crank failures. I asked for and received permission to post his comments as they appear here. I also invited him to participate in this ongoing discussion. To his email comments, then: John, You may know we have the ability to repair these earlier cranks with all the parts needed. The unfortunate thing is it is not a cheap process, some of that depends to what degree it has failed. As you may know, our main bread and butter is HD Twincam cranks as there are many, many more out on the road vs. XB Buells. But we have always had a love affair with Buells as we raced them from our 1996 S1 through 2009 with an 1125. In 2007 we started utilizing 08' cranks in our Endurance XBs with great results. We have since converted many earlier style XBs and XL motors to the later style crankshaft. The 08' crank is an upgrade and I recommend it to many people who have had major crank failures in both HD XL's and earlier 1.250" crankpin Buell XBs. This crankshaft has been in the XR1200 platform since it hit showrooms, but sales numbers have not been what anyone wants so there is not a lot of info being processed. I should be building an 08' style crankshaft soon for a Turbo XB, using Carrillo rods that will sustain over 200 RWHP. I believe I know why so many 1.2500" pins/bearings have failed, but I do not want to discuss on an open forum. You can not fix it with "mechanic in a can" not sure you can predict it either as it is a stack up of a number of factors. I really do not want to get into a internet debate personally in regards to this matter, but I will say I am a big fan of the later 1.500" crankpined crankshaft and I know it lasts longer then the previous models. ... | ||
| Djohnk |
"The unfortunate thing is it is not a cheap process, some of that depends to what degree it has failed." It would be nice to have a ball-park estimate on the cost to upgrade it to the 1.500" crank-pin (From either Darkhorse or Revolution Performance) before it fails. I am considering this as preventative maintenance. My bike has a little over 37,000 miles. I am getting a little nervous about taking it on short road trips after seeing the failure rate of '07 Ulys with mileage in excess of 20,000. I love my Uly, and purchased it used at a Harley Dealership at a bargain basement price of less than $4000 out the door. I also plan on hanging on to it long term, so investing a little more doesn't bother me. (Message edited by djohnk on September 20, 2011) | ||
| Rdkingryder |
I've had quotes from several places and they get to the price of a new '08 crank, so I didn't bother with it. Reep, don't know anything about dirt bikes, but enough about cars that my engine just needs a hone and some rings along with cleaning of the pistons and gasket set. But hey, if it blows up on me, everyone could say, "I told you so!"  | ||
| Rdkingryder |
"I am considering this as preventative maintenance. My bike has a little over 37,000 miles. I am getting a little nervous about taking it on short road trips after seeing the failure rate of '07 Ulys with mileage in excess of 20,000. I love my Uly, and purchased it used at a Harley Dealership at a bargain basement price of less than $4000 out the door. I also plan on hanging on to it long term, so investing a little more doesn't bother me." DJ, I say don't fret over it. If it hasn't happened, it may never. I thought I heard a noise while underway, but it was pretty quiet and ambient noise was high, so I dismissed it. When it was doing it while stopped and revving it, that's when I looked more into it. Very little debris in the oil, so I caught mine early. It's why I think the engine number is more important that the chassis. They may have come from a bad lot of cranks. (Message edited by rdkingryder on September 20, 2011) | ||
| Luso |
I've been following this post for awhile,but didnt want to jinx myself as I was in another cross country trip. My 07 has 29000 miles VIN 14MZDX03D673700217 built July 07. Absolutely no problems,just replaced the wheel bearings when I bought it from a member here at 12000 miles.All my miles are 2up with camping gear around the country,and last years trip was without the fan as it failed during the trip.I did order a Blackstone oil kit while still on the trip so i could send it when i change the oil now after the trip.Reading this thread made me very nervous during the trip as I aproached 29000 miles,but its home and everything sounds the same. If it does blow up I will be installing a 9 engine....half the heat,half the vibrations,more engine braking and only slightly less torque...I also have a 09 XB9SX. | ||
| Uly_dude |
The next big question in my mind is, can you get the 08 crank(1.500") into the 06-07 XB12 cases. And if you can, do you have to change out the wiring harness and every thing related to the DDFI3 setup that the 08 and newer Ulys used? Asked in another way, can you install a 08 crank in an 06 Uly and keep the DDFI2 arrangement, or would you have to modify the crank a bit to accommodate the different timing marks? And if so, how can you?? | ||
| Paint_shaker |
From all I've heard, an 08 crank in an earlier model is almost a direct swap. Could have heard wrong though... | ||
| Prowler |
I, too, have an extra engine laying in wait. I purchased an XB9 motor a year or so ago just 'cause it was cheap ($450). I guess, worst case, I'll run it with the XB9 motor and live with a little less HP and torque, if this one pukes......... | ||
| Hughlysses |
Regarding the 08 crank in the earlier cases- yes it can be done, and no, it's not that big of a deal. The 08 crank/rods assembly is actually cheaper than the 06/07 unit (~$750 vs. ~$800 or so IIRC). The left side crankcase bearing must also be changed and a press is required for the job. The existing 06/07 timing arrangement can still be retained- the 08 crank will have some timing holes in the perimeter of one of the flywheels that won't be used. Rdkingryder is actually doing this fix on his 07 Uly at present. Follow his efforts here: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/142 838/646487.html?1316138022 |
