| Author | Message | ||
     Mikej |
Blake, I'll have to look closely the next motor plant tour I go on, but I can't see them shipping the engines with the 1/2" diameter hole sitting open on top of the tranny. Maybe they plug it with something. I've still got both of my "dead" sensors. My friend with the Blast that had the sensor go bad was told that the "procedure" was to pull the sensor, clean the end off, then reinstall it. Worked for a very short while, then went bad again, so back to the dealer for replacement. It'd be interesting to know if there was a way to test the sensor out of the bike to verify if it works. My thinking is that if it is some sort of voltage spiking, then that should be affecting other electrical components as well. Plus, I thought the Buell armateur (or whatever the electrical generator is called sitting behind the front primary sprocket) was the same one used on the big twins, at least I thought someone here said that. I would hope someone is tracking spare parts sales compared against total bike sales to track what parts seem to get replaced most frequently. At the very least the purchasing or procurement people probably do to ensure meeting supply needs, but I don't know if engineering is getting any feedback or analysis from them of any failure trends. I'm just an outsider who sometimes gets accidental previews of stuff, nice to be attentive to stuff at times. I don't see how it could be overtorquing since the mounting flange is off to the side and it would just crack off the main tube/cylinder. I can't see how it could be excessive vibes since the Buell is rubber hung and the XL is hard mounted. Different types of vibes maybe like was alluded to with the shock failure mode somehow. Don't know. Poor management is just _one_ of the things that trips my trigger, but I try to not let it get to me too much (even if it is getting time to maybe start looking for another job change). I do know one thing though, if the speedo sensor is my own bike's nemesis, then I'm thankfull it isn't going thru exhaust isolators or header studs, or some of the other stuff other people's bikes go thru on a regular basis. A speedo sensor is relatively simple to change out, did the last one in a dealers parking lot in about 15 minutes with just one allen wrench, it's just the cost will start to add up at $40-$50 each. Oh well, such is life, and so it goes. MikeJ. ps, what's an "a-ole" and why would I get mad at one. Must be slang for sumpthin'  . too late to figure it out. pps, if any of the "internal" lurkers at the MoCo or BuellMoCo are reading this, I am local and would gladly trade my two dead speedo sensors for two live ones if they want to do a post mortem on my dead sensors. I'd even deliver them incognito and swap them at midnight with the troll that lives under the bridge in East Troy. ppps, man, how'd this get so stinkin' long. sorry about that, my internal typo sensor must have failed. I'd better go to sleep and recharge it. g'nite. | ||
| José_Quiñones |
From the Blast! service manual, page 7-58 (Boy I'm glad I bought it even though I don't have one....yet) The speed sensor is mounted on the right side of the transmission case, below the starter. The sensor circuitry is taht of a Hall-Effect sensor that is triggered by the gear teeth of 5th gear on the transmission main shaft. The output of the sensor is a series of pulses that are interpreted by speedometer circuitry to control the position of the speedometer needle and the liquid crystal display (LCD) odometer display. As far as I know this sensor is used in ALL HDs and Buells. So I don't know if above average failure in Buells only will raise a flag with HD whey they are putting the same sensor in 180,000 bikes per year. I tried cleaning both of my sensors before I got them replaced and that did not work. I'm still guessing that it's a voltage spike. I have had an ignition switch and two speedo sensors fail, and finally the voltage regulator threw up an error code and was replaced. I'm guessing it's all related. | ||
| José_Quiñones |
Here's some tank icons to get started:  | ||
| Mikej |
Oh great, now I'm going to worry a little about my voltage regulator going out. | ||
| Rocketman |
Battery  Starter terminals etc | ||
| Rocketman |
Battery  Starter terminals etc | ||
| Rocketman |
Weird.................... What happened to the bloody text I just spent half an hour typing ? Rocket in England | ||
| Bluzm2 |
Rocket, Where did you get the nifty breather hose frame clamp? It's a VERY mount. BluzM2 | ||
| Rocketman |
My buddy has a garage full of things Harley, and some Buell, and he has a few of those clamps in different tube sizes amongst all his HD junk. Some are billet alloy, others chrome, and some are anodised in red or blue. Custom Chrome maybe ? Mucky Cat might know ? For sure, billet ones are Arlen Ness, and they aint cheap either. Still, it's not like you're buying a s h i t load of 'em. Rocket in England | ||
| Airborne |
That Dam*, F***&^@ Speedo Sensor, Crapped out on me last night. Seems to be a common failing part according to the above posts. Also seems to have happened as soon as the really good riding weather comes along also. I can't afford to replace a speedo sensor every time. Does somebody have a idea about a after market part that won't crap out? Yeah I already tried cleaning it. Nothing. Crap, F*^%@#$ piece of S!@#. More F&^%$#$% down time from the D!@# riding season. Somebody above was going to hook a O-scope to the sensor to find out what happens. Well, I was digging into the X-1 service manual and found this. For US market/ Speedo reading Sensor output signal 20 MPH = 432Hz 40 MPH = 864Hz 60 MPH = 1296Hz 80 MPH = 1728Hz The manual also said to check for 8-12 VDC on the red wire going to the sensor. Hope that helps someone's research. Let us know what happens with the voltage spike theory. @#$%, !@#$, ^%$#, #$%* | ||
| Blake |
Airborne! Relax dude. Why would you let the lack of a mere speedometer keep you from riding? I haven't. | ||
| Reepicheep |
OK, I threw the scope and the DVM on the bike, and even cut apart the first speedo sensor, and here is what I found. This is for my 2k M2, not sure if the parts are the same across the board. The Sensor ========== It is definately a magnetic pickup. You can stick you pinkie down the sensor hole and feel the gear teeth, and you can stick the sensor solidly to any ferrous surface. This is as expected. It is NOT however, a passive device (coil around a magnet), which suprised me. It is an active device, definately a semiconductor, probaby a field effect device. It has three leads going directly from the three wires coming into the unit, and NO coil (that i could find anyway). The semiconductor sits between the magnet and the coil, and one face of it is actually exposed on the bottom of the sensor (you can even see the part number, which I had no luck crossing yet). Throwing it (one of my dead ones) on my DVM and doing a diode check showed open circuits in every direction. This means that it is a totally baked bipolar device, or that it is a field effect device. I suspect it is field effect... which I cannot easily test to see if it is blown or not. The resistance between the leads was many megaohms, which is consistent with a FET (I think... it's been quite a few years since I fussed with one first hand). And it's a bear to get apart, even with the dremel tool Though there is a nice little super strong magnet inside of it, so you have something to show your three year old when you finish The Signal ========== I don't have a portable scope or a track stand, so I could not check the signal while moving, but I did check it with the engine running. On my cyclone, both the DVM and the Scope show less then 5 volts on both the red and the white wire and the black wire. More on this later. Now that we know this is an active device, Jose's theory about voltage spikes become much more likely. Revving the engine, flipping all the switches (lights, turn signals, brakes, horn, etc) shows some noise in the line, but not a lot. Probably less then 2 tenths of a volt above the 5 volt DC... not enough to do any damage... but this was just at idle for 5 minutes, and I don't have a storage scope so I could have missed something. Conclusion ========== None. I know more about what's in there, but I still don't know whats broken, or whats breaking it, or even for sure that it is broken. I sure as heck would not want to be a semiconductor in that sort of environment... I'm suprised to see one there. But I guess in theory the part could be designed to survive there, it would just take some carefull work. And to top it off, there was a lot of powdered metal in the oil I wiped off the sensor... it looked like graphite, but a little brighter (probably aluminum). Wonder if I have to adjust my primary chain  New Theory ========== Airborne's info was VERY interesting... 8 to 12 volts on the red wire? I sure as heck was not seeing that... I had 4.8 volts max. Maybe the sensor is still good, and just not getting enough bias voltage. I will have to check my manual and see if I can scare up schematics. Maybe it is the voltage regulator. So don't throw away those old sensors yet, there may be hope. Of course, any lurking Buell employees can feel free to anomously post any tips if they have any insight here... Bill | ||
| Aaron |
Might be interesting to hang an MOV across it to suppress spikes. Can you get 12V MOV's? I suspect you can. AW | ||
| Sparky |
Here're some specs & general info for Hall Effect sensors made by AEC (no, not the Atomic Energy Commision): Zero Speed Geartooth Sensors & Zero Speed Geartooth Sensors w/Power-up Recognition. I have no idea if this is the vendor that Harley uses, but I imagine that the specs & info are typical for these devices as used in autos & mc's. Note this design uses an NPN transistor, has a functional voltage range of 4.8 to 18 VDC, and they are "... not protected from reverse voltage hook-up, load dump, nor negative field decay. Such protection can be provided in special custom-designed versions." They do however contain filter capacitors for RFI/EMI protection. So don't hook 'em up backwards when bench testing. Sparky | ||
| Aaron |
Here's a good app note on transient suppression in automotive applications. Although it mostly reads like an advertisement for one of they're devices (which they sample, by the way), it does have a lot of good information. AW | ||
| Reepicheep |
Thanks Sparky... good info. And the logo on the part I disected has a stylized "A" on it... perhaps for "AEC"? I searched their site, and could find no actual parts images with logos, but this sure sounds like the part. But the fact that it is NPN, means that my unit is likely baked after all... The diode checker on my fluke tries to forward bias the connection, and I got nothing in any direction for any of the leads. Maybe the thing is AC coupled, but I doubt it, and even then you would think I would have seen the thing charging and discharging. Plus, how would it run in that case... it's gotta get power somewhere... Also interestingly, I saw the temperature spec for the device topped out at 150 degrees C... How hot does the Buell engine get? Obviously, more then 100 degrees C... does it pass 150 C? Though I don't think the Buell would have any reason to run any hotter then the Sportster, and their sensors appear OK. I'm beginning to just suspect a bad batch of parts, and I'm just a lucky winner. I guess I will try one more unit... Bill | ||
| Mikej |
Just to throw another variable into the sensor equation, when my most recent speedo sensor went bad it was working when I left the garage, but less than 2 miles later it had died. It was right around freezing out that morning. So, the engine was basically warmed up, but the tranny fluid most likely wasn't fully warmed up yet. Don't know if this detail would affect the testing. Just thought I'd throw it in. I think it was warm out when my first sensor died. I guess they cancel each other out for that variable. Oh well. | ||
| Airborne |
The dead speedo didn't stop me from riding but I would have liked to known that I was doing 115 and 120MPH while I was doing it, instead of asking the guy on the R1 what we did after stopping for gas and munchies. I knew we were fast the tach was reading 5 and 6 grand in 5th gear in some long sweepers. ReepiCheep: Look for a voltage spike across the red wire when the starter button is pressed. Change that check for a voltage spike on any of the three. Today I noticed something I never looked for before. Even though the speedo needle doesn't move the odometer still reads the last mile it broke at (9332). When I press the starter the LCD blinks off then comes back on. Just like the radio in your car shuts off when starting. My knowledge of electronics is small but enough to understand the tech stuff (High school Vo-Tech and Army radio repairman) Even though there is a protective circuit to protect electronics during start up maybe the circuit cut out doesn't last long enough. That could let a spike through the system from a coil or starter solenoid or something else that would have a collapsing magnetic field to induce more voltage. Just some more ideas to ponder. Darn, knew I should've jumped on the chance to buy that old junky O-scope from the Vo-Tech when they offered it to me. Guess I'm stuck with the $20.00 Multi-Meter. Also I checked out the Speedo sensor on my bosses Fat Boy. The sensor housing from the top doesn't look quite the same as mine and it's mounted 90 degrees from the direction mine is. Hmmm, Interesting. | ||
| José_Quiñones |
Somebody on ATC had posted something about this, but I didn't save it. I think he threw something into the circuit in front of the speedo sensor to protect it from spikes. That's what I hate about ATC, once it's gone, it's gone! Other than that Jay is doing a great job. | ||
| Bigal |
Hi All, I've been lurking here for a LONG time, but this is my first posting. It seems I have barely enough time to read everything, let alone post! However on this particular occasion I thought I'd share my experiences on the speedometer sensor thread. I would like to see this little problem resolved on my bike also. I've had very few issues with my '99 M2 in 17k miles, the speed sensor being the only real one. I'm now on my 3rd replacement, which is the reason my M2 now wears a tach! The shop manual diagnostic tree list the following: Battery voltage (11V - 13V) on the red, ground on the black and either 0-1 volt with the tooth in front of the sensor or 4 - 6 volts, tooth absent, on the white is what they're looking for. The failure mode of mine has always been 4.5V on the white wire and steady. Everything else appears to be OK as tested with a DVOM, I haven't checked the quality of the signals with an o-scope, I've been looking at them, but haven't made a purchase yet. If you check the voltage on the harness coming from the speedometer, with the speedometer sensor un-hooked you get the same reference voltage that you get when the tooth is not in front of the sensor, 4.53V in my case. From my experience this type of operation is more consistent with a reed switch than a hall effect switch, my observation only though. Another observation I've seen is that autos with a reed switch for the speed sensor seem to have a high failure rate on their speed sensors. I did start to dissect one of the failed units. I haven't gotten past the connections of the wires to the sensor it's self. That connection is copper wires crimped in a brass connector. It didn't appear to be a great connection. I haven't had time to whittle the rest of the potting away from the sensor. I know there has been some debate as to whether this is a Buell problem or an H-D problem and it appears the consensus is it only affects the Buell. If you listen to H-D I think that's what they want you to believe too. I've voiced, loudly, my dissatisfaction through the speed sensor through Buell and H-D channels and have been told by H-D that there isn't a problem, there must be something else wrong with my bike. Here's the reason I do not agree with this. I've obtained all of my replacement sensors through a local Harley only shop. This time a new parts guy helped me and he was very interested in the problem. He looked up the speedometer sensors used on ALL Harleys, both sportster and big twin. The most interesting thing in this exercise was they had MULTIPLE replacements for EVERY speed sensor Harley's ever used IN stock, even 01 part numbers. Why would a small northern VA Harley shop have, not one, but several of each of these sensors, on the shelf, if there isn't some problem? At least I thought that was very interesting and not consistent with the "there is no problem with our sensors" line from the Co. Any way I hope that some of the E Es here will get a little farther on this than a miss-placed IE has so far! Thanks to everyone for the vast amount of information that circulates here at the BWB, back to lurking! Alan | ||
| Airborne |
I was getting back on here to post the voltage readings on different wires but Bigal beat beat me to it. I've been marking and highlighting my service manual like a college text book and found some more interesting stuff. Didn't Sparky say something about not reversing the polarity? Read on. Speedometer Test: Chart 2B (flowchart) After checking voltage references all over the system and getting correct readings the chart leads you to a box that says; "Check for spark plug wire terminals properly seated onto spark plugs and secondary coil terminals. Check for wear points on spark plug wires where insulation may be damaged. Does damage exist?" Yes = Repair No = Clean or replace Speedo sensor. Retest. Problem Solved? Yes No on and on. Could this be the cause in the first place? Would a stray high voltage (I think the voltage is a two digit, thousand something VDC from a coil to fire a spark plug) arcing to ground be able to reverse the polarity in the system momentarily? Hmmm? Circuit protection!? Possibly a Zenor diode placed on the red wire and a regular diode placed on the ground side of the sensor. Go one better and build a little circuit board that will include a noise suppressor completely enclose the circuit in an epoxy resin for protection and insert it in between the connector plugs. I think I'll start working on that idea. I'm off to the electronic web sites and researching what kind of semi-conductors I'll need. I'll bet somebody will eventually speak up and say they already have one though. | ||
| Blake |
One other data point. My speedo hasn't totally croaked. The needle kinda floats around between 0 MPH and half to 3/4 actual speed. The odometer reading follows suit. Did one ride of 150 miles or so, my tripmeter reported 34 miles. Buell, are ya listening. Sounds like we may solve this one for you. Cool stuff Reepicheap and Bigal! Keep it going! I'll be home on the 20th and will check my voltages and report back to ya. Won't be able to post the data till around the 25th though. | ||
| Edthack1 |
Help! I need 3ea. S3 headlight adjuster plastic inserts. Buell only sells the complete headlight assy. I tried finding the headlight mfg.- "Speaker" on the web with no luck. Any suggestions? Don't ask why I need these! " as my Dad always said more force is not always the answer" Ed Thacker 99S3T | ||
| Hogluvr |
Alrighty, I have another in my never-ending list of questions. When I bought my '98 S1 two months ago (it's been that long already?), they installed a new battery in it. I am assuming it is the Blast conversion I have seen people talking about. Is there a way to get the installation instructions for this set-up? It looks to me like they were in a hurry, and hacked the thing together. The ground strap off the back of the motor is wedged between the frame and the battery bracket, and the battery is not sitting flat in the tray. It looks like the negative cable is not routed properly, and is literally leaving the battery hanging slightly. I have seen service bulletins posted for other things, and was wondering if anyone knew where this one might be at. I am at a disadvantage here, as I have never seen the original set-up, and can't tell for sure whether they installed this thing properly. Any help would be greatly appreciated (as usual ) Mike | ||
| Marks3tbillet |
Edthack1: I too broke my S3 headlight adjuster clips. I bought six of them since I thought I'd break them again. The new part uses metal on the area that snaps into the fairing mount and plastic for the portion that threads over the studs. Buell's Part Number for the new clips: 68335-97Y. It took over two weeks for these to come in though. Mark | ||
| Reepicheep |
My new speedo sensor should be waiting for me on the way home. Hopefully, three is a charm. To stack the odds in my favor, I also went by Radio Shack and got parts for a homebrew filter. I will post full instructions when I get it together, and if it looks like it will work. Hopefully this weekend... Bill | ||
| Airborne |
I called around to different dealers in the area until I found a speedo sensor in stock. The trick I used and took a chance on was telling them it was a 99 1200 sportster. When I picked up the sensor the part number embossed on it was the same for both. 74402-95 However on the bottom the numbers after the stylized A were different. Sensor from Buell A 56L 739 Sensor for HD 1200 A 56L 549 The sensor works but I think the tolerance rating from sensor to sensor produced most be kind of big. Must be around 10% allowance. Or maybe the sensors are different and they are for a specific number of teeth on the 5th gear. Anybody out there now how many teeth are on the fifth gear for a Buell X-1 vs HD 1200 Sportster? When traveling at 4K RPM in 5th gear the speedo now reads 83mph instead of the 80 it normally read. Oh well. I'll get one of them police officer guys that I work with to check the accuracy in the parking lot at work some day. Reepicheep: I'll definitely be interested in the schematic of your filter when you are done testing. Thanks dude, for your efforts. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Hrrmph. My sensor (got it from a Harley (non Buell) dealer) for a 2000 sportster 1200 has yet a different number.... A56L 051 Maybe those last three digits are some sort of batch number. I am trying to dig out my old analog design books to make sure I am putting together a second order two pole DC low pass filter (my goal) instead of an astable multivibrator or spark gap generator. Coils make me nervous. Anyway, hope to get on it tomorrow. I made sure I got all the parts at radio shack, so if it works anyone can do it. Bill | ||
| Mikej |
Man you got good eyes. I had to flip my sensor all over the place before I finally saw those tiny numbers. My guess is that they are either date codes or calibration codes. My oldest/first failed sensor is A56L 808 (or 809, or 909, or 908?) which was out of my August 1999 MY2000 M2. The second failed sensor is A56L 838 which I got last Fall. And, as I was moving them around in the light in front of the computer here, I realized they are little powerfull magnets. I wonder how many of the floppys and Zip disks on my desk now have bad sectors on them (oops!), hope I didn't get them too close. I think I'll go put the sensors back in the garage now. Wait, where is the garage, does not compute, magnetic sensor stuck to head, Oh Noooooo Mister Billlllll. Sorry, I now return you to your regularly scheduled program. MykeJ | ||
| José_Quiñones |
great work guys, keep us posted. |
