| Author | Message | ||
     Mark_weiss |
Did some K-vault searching, did not find an answer. Well, except that since my Uly is an 08, it does not have the failure-prone '77' connector in front of the drive pulley (I looked anyway). Here's the problem, bike is a 2008 XB12X At a gas stop, it took two hits of the starter button. First hit just gave a clunk, next fired the bike to life. A block or so later I'm at a stop and the Check Engine light winks on. Moments after getting under way, the light is off. I ride a mile or so to the next freeway entrance, light is still off. When I stop at the entrance ramp, the light pops back on, but goes off again when I'm moving. The bike seems to be running fine. Cruising at 65, the light stays off. 30 minutes later, the light comes on again. After a few minutes, the GPS shuts off and I note that my driving lights have switched off too. The ECU has shut down auxiliary power. I have to make about 30 more miles to get to somewhere where I won't be stranded. The light stays on all of the way there, after shut-off, the fan runs for only a few seconds (should be a few minutes). I borrow a multi-tester and check the battery voltage (it's six months old). Reading is 11.8. With the bike running, the voltage climbs to 12.0 @ 3k rpm. Battery connections are tight. Ground looks OK. Charge the battery with a 10 amp charger for 90 minutes. It now shows 12.6v. After 30 minutes of sitting, still at 12.6v. Bike starts right up & battery voltage starts to fall. Increasing revs makes no difference. Voltage still slowly drops. Connect meter as a shunt to the battery to read current while running. At idle the meter shows about a 6a draw. As the revs increase, the draw decreases to near 0, but never changes to a charge. I trace the harnesses to the voltage regulator. Both connections are under the left-side scoop. One is a three cell connector with only two wires. This appears to come from the engine. An AC voltage check shows about 28 vac at idle, voltage increases quickly with rpm. I'm used to three wires coming from the alternator. The other side of the regulator shows DC voltage which increases with rpm. With everything connected however, the problem appears to persist. Is the regulator a regulator only, or a rectifier-regulator? Right now I'm 180 miles from my bike, driving a borrowed car. I won't get back until Friday. Does anyone have charging system diagnostics? I have access to a service manual, but not electrical. I'd appreciate links to, or scans of dynamic and bench test procedures for the charging system components. Mark SE AZ | ||
| Reepicheep |
Something doesn't add up. With bike running, if you see 12 volts, it isn't charging. 28 VAC at idle suggests the stator is working. I don't know if the 6 amp shunt test tells much... better then nothing, but without voltage you can't infer power output. | ||
| Reepicheep |
The regulator is a shunt type regulator and rectifier. It lets the stator output climb until it hits the 13.9V or so trigger point, then shorts it to ground, where the battery finishes the cycle. So from what I read above, it smells like a regulator. | ||
| Mark_weiss |
I'd never looked into permanent magnet alternators. Was not sure exactly how the regulator worked. It was looking pretty regulator-like to me. The reason for the current test was that I'd worked with one other bike (can't recall which) which capped voltage at 12.2, the only way to check charging was to look at the current flow. Wasting the power to ground seemed to be the only way. Just not too elegant. Am I correct that the stator output is just two wires? | ||
| Rays |
Mark, the 2008 and later stators are single-phase so yes, they are two wire. One thing you want to double-check is the connector that is the DC output of the regulator. While I have never heard of an issue with 2008 and later regulator plugs, that doesn't mean it is impossible. I would disconnect this and have a look for any obvious signs of bad connection and reseat if not. There would have been dozens of earlier XB regulators sent to the trash because of the old '77 connector. When the new regulator was plugged into the dirty connector this action would 'wipe' the contact area clean enough for charging to appear restored and the innocent regulator trashed. Weeks or months later the same issue would crop up and the new regulator would then appear to be faulty..... I just checked my '09 Electrical manual and see that it is still designated as '77'. There is every chance this isn't at fault but well worth a look if it saves you buying a regulator you don't need. I have to confess that I haven't even looked at this on my '09 XT (I am on first name terms with this connector on my '06X), so I will have to go and have a look on the week-end. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I think (but don't know) that there is a phase per wire, and ground is through the chassis. So the two wire stators are two phase, and the three wire stators are three phase. The only advantage I can think of with three phase is that you might be able to loose a phase and still finish your trip. | ||
| Mark_weiss |
Looks like it just may be the "77" connector. Freshly charged battery: 13.2 v. With ignition switched on, battery drops to 12.8. OK. Voltage slowly drops while idling to 12.3. Revved to 3k rpm, voltage rises to 12.6 but will not go higher. Running, stator output is 28.8 v at 1k rpm. About 52v at 2k, 75 v at 3k. Regulator side of #77 at idle is 13.5v (???) Bike side of 77 connector reads 12v, battery direct is 12.1v. Plugged back together, same result. Check again. Regulator output is 13.5v. Increase revs, voltage goes up. 36v at 3k. Hmmm. This seems that it SHOULD charge. Unless the regulator somehow is not reading line voltage and won't LET the battery charge. Plug in again. Idling, at battery, voltage now reads 13.5v!!!! Increase revs, voltage goes up (16.2v at 3k rpm). Current test showed 10A charge at about 2500 rpm. The connector LOOKS good. Maybe some unseen corrosion caused the regulator to drop charge current? I'm going to see if Radio Shack or NAPA has some sort of electrical contact cleaner. When I close ol' 77 back up, there's gonna be some dielectric grease in there as well. Mark SE AZ (Message edited by mark_weiss on June 04, 2010) | ||
| Rays |
Mark, be careful with the dielectric grease. It by its very nature is an insulator. It is great at keeping water away from a contact area but if the female connector is looser than it should be then the dielectric grease will only add to the problem. I would take the time to remove one pin at a time and test for physical fit without all the waterproof stuff giving you a false 'feel'. It could be as simple as some light corrosion on either pin or socket but you need to eliminate a loose connection that will arc slightly and build up a layer of carbon. Not a huge job and could pay off in spades some day. Make sure you disconnect the battery (or pull the 30A fuse minimum) before doing this because the loom side is connected directly to positive via the 30A fuse. Please feel free to PM me if you need to discuss. | ||
| Pso |
Mark, I don't know about your year but my 06 had a variable voltage reading, that would drop over time. It was the connector to the VR from the stator that was the problem. I had already hard wired the #77 connector but it was the, I beleive #69, connector right there behind the #77 connector that was melted. When I was down to the final gasp I was only getting a 11.3v on my readng. Once I had hard wired this connection, the readings went back to 14.1 or.2v. Just what I found on my bike. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Excellent news! WalMart usually has contact cleaner. | ||
| Mark_weiss |
Got some contact cleaner at Radio Shack, Deoxit. Spray, let dry, spray again. Made a visible difference on the pins. I'll assume that that the same occurred within the sockets. I was careful with the grease, applied only to the connector, probably minimal transfer to the pins. Primarily, the intent was to prevent moisture from wicking into the connector. The molded connectors did not look like they'd take kindly to removing the pins, so I cleaned everything in place. Thanks for the note about the 30A main fuse. I did not realize that the charge circuit routed through a fuse. I removed and reseated the fuse, just to be certain that there was good contact. Everything looks good now. Great charging numbers, both voltage and current. Mark SE AZ | ||
| Bryn1203 |
I have the same charging problem on my 08 Uly - this thread has explained a lot - thanks very much - I checked out beside the drive pulley and do not appear to have the connector shown here http://froggypwns.com/images/2008-08-18/slides/IMG_3668.JPG Probably the rectifier then. (Message edited by bryn1203 on September 19, 2010) | ||
| Bryn1203 |
rectifier changed - still not charging - power coming to battery but battery does not charge up. Swapped battery with known good (but old) one that was fully charged. Same thing, after an hours riding and a few starts, the batteries flat. What else could it be - if charge is coming to the battery OK but two batteries both won't charge. Two bad batteries is unlikely. | ||
| Sparky |
What do you mean by "power coming to battery"? Is the charging system putting more volts in to the battery than the static battery or not? Regardless, the whole charging system needs to be checked out in order to isolate the root cause of the problem. This means isolation and continuity verification of the stator to determine that none of its coils are shorted to ground or to each other. The voltage regulator, if it is not defective, needs a good ground and clean connections to the stator and battery. Even if the charging system checks out OK, there could be parasitic current drains elsewhere on the bike that are not allowing the battery to charge up. | ||
| Bryn1203 |
Sparky, thanks for the opinion .......the right charge was being produced but when the half flat battery is connected the charge drops below 12V. | ||
| Bryn1203 |
Turned out that it was the alternator stator. When cold - first 10 miles or so it was OK then intermittent flashing of engine warning lite and no charging. Flat battery after about an hours riding. After regulator replacement it was OK but not 14V - then turned out alternator had a problem when hot. Bad batch apparently - HD began cutting corners & used a cheaper supplier & messed up - | ||
| Sirvincentblack |
If anyone on this thread is still around I have a question. My 2006 uly xb12x has a new stator, New regulator, New battery (hd) New 77 connection. I get 18v at the 77 connector, I go to the battery and only find 12.2 volts. Ive checked the starter positive cable is tight. Both terminals are clean and tight. Grounds clean of paint and tight. Stator three pin connector looks good. What am I missing? | ||
| Hulagun |
I'm chasing a similar problem on my '03 XB9S (12k on it, and well maintained). Fresh H-D battery. Bike runs great until voltage drops below 11V or so. No CE light, and the battery checks out OK. So I installed a new VR with the updated "77" connector, but it still was not sending more than 12v to the battery. I did the tests shown in the manual that use a standard voltmeter, and everything passed. So I rolled the dice and fitted a new stator from American Sport Bike. Still, the problem persisted. The new stator is putting out 35+ AC volts between all pins. The new R/R is not bleeding down. All grounds look good. After thinking about it, I went back to check the "77" connector. There i found I had reversed the wires when fitting the new female 77 plug to my bike's harness. The new Deutsch connector has each connection numbered (look very closely on the plastic housing on the wire-entry side). Pin 1 goes to negative(black) and pin 2 goes to positive (red). So, looking into the male pin side (with the retainer clip to the left) the bottom pin is negative. At this point I am assuming that the problem was originally due to a dying VR. By screwing up the connector wiring, the new VR probably was damaged soon as I ran the bike. I've switched the wires in the 77 connector and will test fire it tomorrow to see if anything changes. The new stator install was probably unnecessary. I'll probably have to install a second new VR. Expensive lesson. Anybody have a clean good used VR to sell? (Message edited by hulagun on April 24, 2015) | ||
| Reepicheep |
I wouldn't be surprised if your VR survived. | ||
| Hulagun |
VR survived. Bike runs great. Just did 500 mile test run to Yosemite and back. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I'm surprised! Oh wait, no I'm not.  |
