| Author | Message | ||
     Joplin |
Hey all, I know this is probably not uncommon but I couldnt find it in a search. My '95 S2 needs a little help. I pulled the front sprocket cover off to clean a little and viola'! I see a collar with needle(rollaer) bearings are being held in by the cover. The "collar" seems to be ~1" out from flush with the sprocket. There doesnt seem to be a cap (left anyway). I cant seem to find an exploded view in the manual, soooooo, I was hoping someone can tell me where to start. Shoould I just pull off the sprocket and can it go back in after cleaning and lube????Just got it back from the dealer too,,,,  thanks for your help,,,,,JM | ||
| Henrik |
Joplin; you sure that's a bearing?? Can't think of a roller bearing in that area. Can you post a picture? Henrik | ||
| Reepicheep |
http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3842&post=198002#POST 198002 Been there, done that. Look at the top picture. I feel your pain  If you decide to do the job yourself, post before you start. I was thinking of a way that MIGHT work that could save a lot of time and money for the repair you probably need. The cap on the 5th gear drive assembly could have come off first, and let the bearings get trashed, or the bearings could have failed dramatically and blown the cap off. My bearings were a mess with a solid sealed cap, and I am not the only one. By the way, the diagram you are looking for is for the "fifth gear drive assembly". edited by reepicheep on March 14, 2004 | ||
| Joplin |
Thanks Bill, Thats exactly what I see,,,,not good. Looks like I need to take it down to the tranny gears sitting on the bench, huh.Whew,,,Guess I can update my tensioner, detent plate and possibly smooth out the shifter forks,,,, Thanks for the tips (from days gone by) and if you think of anything else that is a real must do,,,please let a brother know,,,,wish me luck,lol. JM | ||
| Reepicheep |
We can go further into it if you wish... but here is something I think might be worth trying. Getting the tranny out is straightforward. Even, actually, pretty cool. But that 5th gear drive assembly is pressed into the case. To get it out, you destroy the main bearing it sits in. And the whole process of pressing it out and then back in can get scary. Do it wrong and you crack the cases. It's very doable, but its a pain. Then you get the fifth gear drive assembly out, and you still have to press out the bearings from in there. I broke down and took this to a shop to do, and they did a good job, but charged me a full hour of shop time to do it. Fair enough I suppose, but they were not doing me any favors. So I was thinking... instead of building a jig to press out the whole drive assembly, why not build a jig to just press out the bearings within the assembly while it remains in the engine? Once the tranny is out, you can get at both sides pretty easily. So some sort of a big honking threaded rod / nut, and some heavy stainless washers that have been filed down to *just* fit inside that assembly, and use the nuts to drag the whole thing out. I think it might be able to be done without putting any tension on existing bearings, and with that 5th gear assembly in place. It would be non trivial fabrication of collars and washers and heavy duty steel rods and nuts, but might be possible. It might be possible to cut out the bearings in there as well, with some patience. That being said, once you get over the emotional aspect of it, pressing that drive assembly out is not really as bad as it sounds, even with shop built tools. And if you have a lot of miles on the engine, you probably want to replace that big main sprocket bearing anyway. Its like $40 or something, not that bad, and the old one looks REALLY cool hanging on your wall. And when they talk about pulling out those old internal bearings from that 5th gear assembly, they do use big words like "hydraulic press", so there is a good chance my approach is firmly in the land of fantasy. See if you can lure Hoser into the topic, he was a HUGE help to me. And he has probably pressed these bearings out himself at some point, so knows a lot more about the topic. Does the bike jump "into" gear when you hit the throttle? Shift, ride normally, hit the throttle, and get one big WHACK as it snaps the rest of the way into gear, then normal again? Mine was doing that as well, so I replaced 2nd gear while I was in there. It was worn dogs. You can inspect them once the tranny cartridge is out on the bench with no further disassembly, though it takes more of an expert then me to tell which ones look "bad". | ||
| Reepicheep |
Oh yeah, and one more piece of bad news. More then likely, the destruction of those bearings has also destroyed the transmission shaft that rides on them, the mainshaft. As you can imagine, you have to rebuild most of the tranny to replace it Follow the link above and go back through the archive for the previous four pages or so ("previous" button on the top of the page). I lived the whole experience here in grusome detail and got great help from a lot of people. While you are in *there*, look for raised lips on the grooves in the shift drum. File them down flush (or even just a hair bevled) to improve shifting (and simplify reassembly). Or just drop a Baker smooth shift kit in there, which replaces this drum. You are doing all the work anyway. I also "cheated" a little, and before reassembling I smoothed out the surface on the cases where the main bearing sits with some 1200 grit sandpaper. I wanted the thing to come out easier next time if I had to repeat the job. It did go in easier, and would likely come out easier, but I then had a heck of a time keeping the rubber seal over that bearing from popping back out. Finally tacked it down with a bunch of RTV, and it has held since then. Sorry man. It'll work out, but it hurts. | ||
| Joplin |
Bill, I"M GOING IN!!!! lol I've been reading your posts (as recommended) and think I can get close. I just need to make some room in the garage for a dedicated tranny work area. I suppose I should spring for some kinda bike stand as well. You really put alot into your posts,,, thanks. I will digitally document my trip as well and send them or post them and maybe a smart guy like you or Hoser can get a tutorial together. I will post when I start so I can reach out there and hold on of y'alls hand,,,lol. Figuratively speaking,, thanks again,,,,JM | ||
| Reepicheep |
I'm just tenacious. Hoser is smart  We got your back.  For a bike stand, I use a chunk of rebar through the rear axle, and two cheap jack stands. And don't blame me if you crack the cases  | ||
| Joplin |
Heya Bill (or Jose if you are listening), I was reading the posts you directed me to and Jose was saying he pushed his bearings back in after they "walked" their way out. The bearings look god (from what i can see) and it is only about a half an inch out from the sprocket. I'm thinking about using a three jaw "puller" to push it back in. Let me ask you this tho, what happens to the bearings as I remove the sprocket? I'm gonna go check it out,,,darn,,70º outside,,,guess it makes it nicer to work on,,,,,thanks,,,JM | ||
| Reepicheep |
Hmmm. The bearings I am talking about are rollers in a cage. My cage rusted to nothing, and the rollers siezed and wore flat before falling everywhere. Thats the picture of the result I linked to. So your cage is intact, and the rollers are captive, with no flat spots or other damage? Remarkable. If so, I would think you can pull the tranny, and use a bolt and nut and washers to pull them back into the right position, all with that 5th gear drive assembly still in place. The puller might push it back in also, but I would worry about hurting the front sprocket. Obviously, if you pound on the assembly and the bearings, then the man drive assembly bearings (that big one) are shot. Hard to believe they walked out without hurting anything. I would think I would at least want to pull the tranny cartridge and get a good look at the mainshaft and a good clear look inside the fifth gear drive assembly. If you post a picture, we might have a better idea. | ||
| Eshardball |
I just found the same thing on my S1. Roller bearing cage protruding slightly, (.05") from end of Mainshaft 5th gear. Seal is gone but bearings look oK. Everything spins free & no fluid leaking out. No rust on rollers that I can see.Anyone have success tapping them back in without ripping out the trans? I am hesitant to bang too hard for fear of shifting the mainshaft bearing in the right case and driving the bearing & 5th backwards into the dogs on 2nd gear. (Message edited by eshardball on December 09, 2006) | ||
| Reepicheep |
To fix that bearing correctly (read: yank 5th gear drive assembly and put it on a hydraulic press), you have to ruin your mainshaft bearing anyway. If you pull the tranny (not nearly as bad as it sounds on a tuber), you can then get a long bolt through there and have a chance of pressing that roller bearing back in place without stressing the mainshaft bearing at all. I do seem to remember somebody finding that, and just gently tapping it in, and being good to go though. | ||
| Eshardball |
I know pulling the trans is the right way, I'm just hoping to luck out just once. The bearings look good and I only have to move the cage about .15" to get a new seal in. Maybe heat he cage with a jewlers torch. Eric | ||
| Reepicheep |
I forget who it was, and don't recall ever seeing a "long term report", but I don't think they even heated it, and indicated it went in with little fuss. That's probably what I would do as well... at least give it a try. Like I said, doing it right requires ruining that bearing anyway, so it's kinda dumb to ruin the bearing to avoid possibly ruining the bearing I've got that bearing on my desk at work, I will look and see if there is any plastic in there that might make you want to worry about heat. I don't recall any plastic in the 5th gear drive assembly. | ||
| Eshardball |
The planets all lined up today and I was able to gently tap the cage back in with a socket. Wedged an assortment of flat screwdrivers behind the pulley before I started tapping so I wouldn't shift the gear or the mainbearing.There doesn't appear to be anything holding it from being pushed backwards. Flushed the exposed rollers with oil and staked the inside of Mainshaft 5th so it couldn't back out again. I don't know why the factory doesn't stake the cage in place A semi local HD dealer even had the seal in stock. | ||
| Armorguard |
Im a certified HD tech, AMI grad and Ive never seen this happen before till I bought my '95 S2. I fixed it and things are great BUT it happened again about 3ooo mi later.. Anyone have any idea what may be contributing to this? I thought maybe allignment but mine is lined up perfectly.. I think its a poor design when there is a locking plate holding a nut with a reverse thread on a gear that turns clockwise.. I caught it in time this time so thankfully I wont have to replace the shafts again. Looks like Ill be able to get away with just removing 5th gear and pressing new bearings and a seal in or replacing just 5th..Ideas? | ||
| Reepicheep |
I think it's related to belt tension, run the belt scary loose. Glad you saved the shaft! I did mine on the old M2 by removing that 5th gear assembly, but I bet with the right jig you could get those cage bearings out with the 5th gear assembly still in the case.... though probably more work than just removing it. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Here is what those inside bearings look like if they don't get oil, or if you run the belt too tight:  That is from this thread: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show .cgi?tpc=3842&post=198002#POST198002 Which shows you how I got my 5th gear drive assembly out. I should have taken a good picture of just that assembly, it's an odd part. That would have explained a lot. |
