| Author | Message | ||
     12x9sl |
Wife's bikes had not been starting for her every time. So I went and got her a new battery and everything was fine for a while. Then we went on a two day bike trip with some friends, and no problems until the second day when it stopped starting all the time. If we left it sit for a while, then it would start again. So after reading this thread: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/327 77/442480.html#POST1400571 and following the directions....no starting at all. Just high speed clicking-just like when the battery is dead or low, but WAY faster. So before I go and order a new solenoid or starter anyone have any suggestions for me? I did check the battery ground to subframe and it's very tight.  | ||
| Reepicheep |
Did you check the 77 connector? Search the archives for lots of info... Also, cascading failures of the charging system are not impossible (for reasons we can't really explain)... | ||
| 12x9sl |
I did check the 77 connector-it looks perfect, clean and no signs of excess heat. By cascading failures, I'm assuming you mean one thing affects another and I get to buy more parts?  | ||
| Reepicheep |
I hate that answer, as it always sounds like a cop out to avoid diagnosing things, but yes, that's it exactly. I'd still try and diagnose though, just to make myself feel better about buying the other parts. The three parts in play on the charging end are the battery, voltage regulator, and stator. On the starting side, you have the start switch, the starter relay, and the starter. So I suppose you can at least try and split out the problem to see if it's on the charging end, or the starting end. The stator tests are the easiest and perhaps least ambiguous... the service manual has a good testing procedure all documented out. | ||
| Rays |
When you say your wife's bike - what is it? If it has the clutch / neutral switch interlock that the 12X's do then this is a real long-shot but will cost you nothing to try. My '06 Uly began having intermittent starting issues that sounded very similar - the starter solenoid would chatter like a machine gun. If I persisted it would eventually 'catch' and whenever I was in the position to check the charging voltage it was OK. I eventually tracked it down to a resistive neutral switch and this can be tested by pulling in the clutch to have the clutch interlock switch bypass the neutral switch for the ground connection to the start relay. The starter button provides power to the start relay (one of the small ones under the seat on a 12X) which has a ground provided by either the neutral switch or the clutch interlock switch. There is also a diode in the circuit here to allow the neutral switch to ground the start relay but prevent the clutch interlock from lighting the neutral light. Once the start relay energises it in turn provides power to the starter solenoid that is part of the starter itself. When the starter solenoid energises the starter draws a lot of current and if the battery connections are loose /dirty or the battery charge low the voltage supplied to the start relay is reduced. If it drops low enough the starter relay will drop-out and in turn the starter solenoid will drop out. If the battery isn't really dead the voltage will come back up without the load of the starter and because someone still has their thumb on the starter button the start relay will use its tiny little goldfish mind to energise again and then the starter solenoid ......... So this cycle will continue and sound very much like a gatling gun has taken residence in your Buell. Fast forward to having a good battery but a resistive neutral switch. The current draw of the neutral switch lamp is less than 1/10th of an amp so a resistive switch (mine was showing 15 ohms) won't stop the neutral lamp from lighting but will have enough voltage drop to make the start relay drop out once the normal drop in battery voltage is seen when the starter engages. I replaced my neutral switch about 40,000km ago and haven't had the issue since. I have heard of one other 12X having the same problem but it certainly isn't common. Like I said earlier, it will cost you nothing to try - just pull the clutch and thumb the starter. | ||
| 5liter |
Rays: I'm having the same issue on my S3T. I did your test and it spun right over. Clutch lever out, chatter. Clutch lever in, spins the motor. Thanks for the tip. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Excellent find Ray, thanks for posting that! | ||
| 5liter |
I just went out and moved the boot covering the switch 90 degrees and now the bike starts up without pulling the clutch in. Must be corrosion on the connector at the switch. I'm going to see if I can get some WD40 into the boot. | ||
| Sparky |
Oh, don't use WD40. That's a petroleum based solvent oil. Use electrical contact cleaner spray which is specifically made for cleaning electrical contacts (sorry for the redundancy). It's sold at RadioSlack or electronics stores everywhere. | ||
| 12x9sl |
Rays, the bike is a 2003 XB9SL. I had tried starting it with the clutch pulled in and it hadn't started. But, after you posted I just kept trying it and one it turned over and started. However, I stupidly turned it off without checking the output to the battery and it hasn't started again. It tried once more, but even with the charger on it, it acted like it didn't have enough juice to spin it and went back to clicking. It was about then I noticed a bit of smoke coming from the clutch cable area-touched the cable and it's quite hot. So..on goes the investigation, starting over with the battery, which is only 2-3 months old. I'm also going to take a closer look at the clutch switch, maybe that is the heat source. | ||
| 12x9sl |
Well, it's not the starter. After the smoking the clutch cable (it got so hot that it started to melt the console where the cable touches it before I noticed), I persevered. The bike would click 10 times as fast with the clutch out as when it was pulled in. The bike finally started with the clutch out and now will start every time with the clutch in or out. When the bike first starts, it's reading 12.8 to 13.25 or so and after less than a minute of running it's up to 14.14 to 14.27. Revving it up doesn't change the voltage at all. | ||
| Sparky |
12x9sl, your bike has a serious grounding issue if the clutch cable is getting smoking hot. The clutch cable housing is acting as the ground instead of the battery ground cables. Yes, there is more than one ground cable. The schematic shows the battery ground cable going from the battery post to one ground point but the starter motor ground goes to a different ground point. I'd bet that there is high resistance between the battery negative post and a starter stud or bolt. The SM says to test for a voltage drop between those two points with engine cranking. If it's greater than 1 volt, that's a failure. | ||
| 5liter |
Well, I thought I had mine figured out from the previous tip but it back to square one. Mine is now heating the clutch cable! I've got a big voltage drop from the negative post to the starter stud. This started gradually so it's probably corrosion some where. My ground strap from the swing arm to the frame is pretty ratty, maybe I'll start there. Sigh.... | ||
| 12x9sl |
I'm in the same boat as 5liter. My voltage drops to between 8 and 10.5 while starting. | ||
| Sparky |
12x9s1, are you saying you're getting approx 8 to 10 volts between the negative battery post and a starter stud or bolt while cranking or are you reading at the battery posts? Note: there is a "braided" ground cable on the topmost motor mount link that is, I think, under the airbox floor. I'd check the ends of that cable for looseness or corrosion. You're losing the ground connection somewhere. (Message edited by Sparky on August 02, 2009) | ||
| Rays |
I'm with Sparky about a serious grounding issue if the clutch cable is getting hot. VW beetles have a similar issue issue when the engine grounding strap is broken. | ||
| 5liter |
Found it!!!! Some frame paint had flaked and folded itself over at the frame tab for the grounding strap. The star washer was on that little bit of paint ergo a bad ground. It sure was hard to see. I took a rat tail file and ran it through the hole on the frame tab and the paint flake popped up. WHEW!!!! | ||
| 12x9sl |
Sparky, it's between the starter post and negative post on the battery. I finally have had time to look at it, and that twisted/braided cable is definitely not tight. So, is that the culprit do you think? Where are the other ground points? I have been looking in the sm for the other grounding points, but I must not know where to look as I can't seem to figure out where they are. There are two in the subframe and the top twisted/braided one under the airbox floor that I have examined so far. Thanks for all the advice/help so far. (Message edited by 12x9sl on August 13, 2009) | ||
| Sparky |
I would say that's it if it is loose. Are the bolts on the twisted/braided cable tight? I would hope so; this cable is in parallel with the upper motor mount link and makes an electrical ground between the frame and engine. The other ground cable goes from the battery negative post to the frame. Make sure the frame end of the cable is clean and also the spot on the frame is clean where the cable gets bolted. You don't want a flake of paint there as 5liter found out. | ||
| 12x9sl |
The bolts are tight, but I can make the cable move front to back at least the thickness of the cable (a 1/4" or so). | ||
| Sparky |
Ah, I understand that the cable is flexible and its bolts are tight. So let's be clear then. The looseness in the cable is only in the braided center section because it is braided and flexible but the cable lugs under the bolts are tight and do not move, correct? | ||
| 12x9sl |
Yes, that is correct. | ||
| Sparky |
Alrighty then, the upper braided ground cable is mechanically intact and properly installed. Good. It may not be electrically OK though. So if you would, let's repeat the cranking voltage drop test but instead of measuring between the battery negative post and a starter stud or bolt, let's go between the battery negative post and the bolt on the engine part of the braided ground cable/upper motor mount link. -- If you have the service manual for your XB9, look at Figure 3-1 Fuel Line and DDFI Electrical Connections. It is a picture showing the braided ground cable in question. -- The bolt I'm referring to in this test is the bolt in the lower part of the picture. -- Again, if it reads more than 1.0 volts, that's a failure. | ||
| 12x9sl |
5liter, I'm not sure what happened to the second page of posts; but yes wtf would be about right. lol |
