| Author | Message | ||
     Buplaux |
The tuning part seems to be pretty straight forward. I want to know if most leave the Wideband o2 in for everyday operations or do you have to switch back to NB. Also I have done a lot of data logging and have got my maps really smooth even below 2000 rpm (nb o2 in the front pipe also). I realize the nb is not accurate at higher rpms so I made sure to be a little rich up top. Do I really need a wideband or can you get close enough with the NB with a lot of data logging????? I am very picky about the way my toys run...... Thanks, Jeff | ||
| Jadow |
What system are you using for Data logging? I took out the stock NB and have been monitoring with a Wego 2 wide band system. I love the range a Wide Band monitors But to be honest it can be scary! Some areas 12.5 and one point 18.1...But a normal ride would pass right through. If you are picky..wideband and a dyno is the only way to fine tune. (wish I had a Dyno) | ||
| Dcapito |
If you are picky, you need to stay away from O2 sensors. Regards, Derek | ||
| Jadow |
If you are refering to the stock NB O2 sensor I agree. but otherwise you can't tune without a WideBand. Local dyno shops stick up a sniffer to monitor the Air/Fuel ratio so they know what direction to tune and in what narrow area to change. I have just started to tune and already I can see I need a WB O2 for the front so I can quit guessing on changes to the front monitoring the rear. And I have learned tuning is a compromise. 1 point up can be too rich and down to lean (even tuning at 13.8 for max torque) | ||
| Dcapito |
I have tuned for over 25 years without the use of a wide band O2 sensor. 15 years ago, you might have been able to convince me to use something that primitive, but not now. Regards, Derek | ||
| Jadow |
O.K. I can always learn. I also have tuned for 22 years and on a carb I can match you but with fuel injection Please share how you tune with 19th Century techniques? Reading the plugs? Not with the Unleaded fuel. By sound..Please not even in the ball park. By tail pipe color? Your as old as I am and our sight is gone. Engine Temp? We are talking Air Cooled Motor Right? Exhaust Temp? How did you keep the exhaust pipe temp constant? Really I am not being sh***. The old ways were good but I am really curious (if your willing to share) How you tune? | ||
| Jadow |
O.K. MY apologies. I see you are in CA. and tune with Integrated 4 gas EGA. Makes alot of sense to me with your mandated pollution control. And your use of Pulse Width Modifiers....I would think with your exposure with Basazz you would be tuning directly IN the ECM not around it. A Tuner told me Yamaha used to demand their shops use a 4 gas analyzer...most seem to be collecting dust. and I have never seen this type of tuning at a Superbike,MotoGP or horsepower shoot out? I am glad it works for you in CA. | ||
| Dcapito |
I use a 5-gas EGA equipped eddy current brake dyno. Regards, Derek | ||
| Dcapito |
I do not use a 5-gas EGA for pollution control reasons. I use it because it allows me to arrive at the best horsepower quicker and more reliably than by any other method. I tune directly in the ECM whenever possible. Are you referring to Bazazz? If so, what does exposure to Bazazz have to do with tuning in the ECM? Dealerships still need access to at least a way to read CO, as most factory procedures call for idle mixtures to be set to a CO target. If others are not using 5-gas, they can tune for best power just as I can, but it will take them much longer, it will be less safe, and they may miss details that 5 gasses handily illuminate. A brief overview the limitations of O2: 1) There is no direct relationship between O2 content and AFR. 2) Even when the mixture cannot be improved, O2 content can and does vary from "ideal". 3) The O2 content can be "perfect" while the mixture is way off. 4) There are may factors that affect O2 content, such as bore size, exhaust valve sealing, ignition timing, and misfires. 5) There is no single "perfect" AFR that is applicable to all combinations of MAP (or TP) and rpm. 6) an O2 sensor's response time is not zero. 7) an O2 sensor's response time is not likely to be consistent. 8) changes in pressure affect O2 sensor accuracy. 9) changes in temperature affect O2 sensor accuracy. 10) changes in input voltage affect O2 sensor accuracy. 11) in the end, AFR is irrelevant. What is relevant is HP and or BSFC at a given intersection of MAP (or TP) and rpm. Regards, Derek | ||
| Reepicheep |
Sweet! Good to see you here Derek! Let me make an introduction... I know Derek from the Radian yahoo group. Derek is infinitely precise on his terms. It can come off as being nit picky if you are looking to be offended. If you are looking for knowledge though, it should come off as "clear and precise". Derek has a ton of knowledge, coupled with an obsessive attention to detail. I wish I lived closer Derek, I have a KDX-200 badly in need of dyno tuning... So, in your experience, how much does changing your gas to oil ratio effect jetting? Does going from 32:1 to 40:1 change things much? | ||
| Jadow |
I agree! Derek reflects alot of knowledge, coupled with an obsessive attention to details. As I stated, I can always learn, If I just stay opened minded, (you know Old dog learning new tricks) Derek's way sure makes it impossible for the "home" tuner to get it right. I guess it is true, Horsepower = Amount of money you are willing to pay someone to do it right. | ||
| Court |
Derek: Great to have you here . . . cvouldn't get a more glowing endorsement in my book. I know zero about tuning so I'll just be listening. Seems strange to hear a civil conversation.  I'm all ears! Court | ||
| Dcapito |
Hi Bill, Thanks very, very much for the kind words. I can't talk about "my experience" with regard to changing gas to oil ratio, as it is essentially nil. However, I think we can at least begin to reason this out (with no experience to back it up, please take with a grain of salt). Going from 32:1 to 40:1 is a 25% change, which at first glance seems significant. As I'm sure you already know (hence the question), oil does not really burn well (if at all). The volume of fluid that makes up the fuel/air mix went from 3.1% to 2.5% oil, so there is 0.6% more fuel than there was (one could say that the mixture was 0.6% richer). If the mixture had been (I'm just going to pick a number out of the air) 13:1, it would now be 12.9:1, which I would not call a significant change. Mind you, the engine may make more or less power based on the change, as the lubricity of the oil, it's tendency to make deposits and foul plugs are all reduced (the former loosing power and the latter two gaining it). Regards, Derek | ||
| Reepicheep |
Thanks Derek, thats along the lines of what I was thinking, but without as much logic and math  I decided to just stick with the factory recommended 32:1. I spent some time dialing in the jetting last night (using the "wheelie dyno"... 1/3 throttle and see if it loops in first gear for the slow jet, full throttle and see if it loops in 2nd gear for the main jets). I was able to find a needle clip position and slow jet that made the bike run worse with the air fuel screw 1 turn out, better at 1.25 to 1.5 turns out, and worse at 2 turns out, so I think I have that one dialed in pretty well. The main is harder as I don't have an air screw to wiggle to see if I am on the lean side or the rich side, just 3 jets. A 148 ran badly. A 155 ran better then the 148. A 160 ran better then the 155. 160 is at the high end of all the "community wisdom" (including actual tuners and porters who know what they are doing, and FMF and Boyesen who are producing aftermarket parts). So I suspect that one is dialed in as well. (But I'll probably go get a 163 or 165 and try that, just because if I don't I'll always be wondering... and I do have a 225 ported big bore kit in there now...) Sorry for the non Buell tangent. Y'all can be glad your Buells are fuel injected and adjust to minor intake, altitude, temperature, fuel quality, and exhaust changes automatically without pulling any carbs off. |
