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V74
| | Posted on Friday, May 23, 2008 - 08:54 am: | 
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when the starter button is pressed it clicks loudly from the starter and then there is a whirring sound but the motor will not turn over,i thought at first it was a dead battery so replaced it but it still will not turn the engine over,took spark plugs out and with zero compression it still wont turn over,have check through the trouble shooting section and theres similar but not the same problems,anyone help me |
Sparky
| | Posted on Friday, May 23, 2008 - 11:38 am: |
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The loud click is probably the solenoid actuating. If you're not familiar with it, one part of the solenoid closes heavy duty contacts to send battery current to the starter motor. The mechanical part of the solenoid is a lever which moves the starter's bendix drive gear to engage the ring gear of, I believe, the clutch.
The bendix drive is a one-way device that turns a gear in one direction but freewheels if overdriven when the engine starts. Your problem might be a defective bendix drive in which its gear would freewheel in both directions.
Or there could be a broken or stuck mechanical part in the solenoid. I'm reciting this next part from memory, so it may not be accurate. But I think you can test the solenoid and the mechanism by temporarily disconnecting the positive lead from the solenoid to the starter motor just to see if the solenoid is actuating and pushing the starter drive gear onto the ring gear, without spinning over the starter motor. You would have to remove the primary cover to see the starter gear move and engage the ring gear though. |
V74
| | Posted on Friday, May 23, 2008 - 12:20 pm: |
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thanks sparky,will check them out,i hate electrics,but cant afford someone else to do it, |
V74
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 09:40 am: |
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i took the primary cover off and turned the drive end of the starter both ways,which is what i have been told will happen if the bendix drive clutch is at fault, so took the starter out,i then took the starter to bits and got the bendix drive clutch out,checking that i found it turned only in one direction,the bike had previously had an intermittent starting problem before it wouldn't start at all,is this consistent with a failing drive clutch ?
i would rather be sure then put back a faulty part. |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 02:20 pm: |
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Steve (V74),
I moved your last post above here to the original thread for the sake of continuity.
Here's what my '97/'98 Cyclone service manual says about testing the starter solenoid:
Solenoid Pull-in Test
See Figure 5-9. Using a 12 volt battery, connect three separate
test leads as follows:
1. Solenoid housing to battery negative.
2. Solenoid “C” terminal to battery negative.
3. Solenoid “50” terminal to battery positive.
Starter pinion should pull in strongly if solenoid is working
properly. If pinion does not pull in, solenoid should be
replaced.
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V74
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 08:15 am: |
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thanks blake,i have a 99 cyclone manual with all that in but don't like electrics,
do you think that its the solenoid that's faulty?as this seems ok,most people i talk to seem to think its the drive clutch,have been told its a common fault,have got a mate who has a spare (used)drive clutch, will hopefully try that next week,any help is appreciated |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 12:13 pm: |
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It's about as simple as it gets to observe whether or not the little drive gear on the starter is popping out and engaging the gear on the clutch assembly. That should have been step #1.
If you've not noted its behavior yet, then I'd suggest that you re-assemble and re-install the starter; then with the primary cover off, engage it and report what you observe wrt the starter gear. Does it pop out towards you and engage the big gear on the clutch hub or not?
If so, but it doesn't turn, then what is your battery voltage?
If it doesn't pop out to engage the big gear on the clutch hub, then check battery voltate. If the batter is 12.5V or better, then you either have a bad solenoid or a faulty/poor electrical connection in the starter circuit.
"I don't like electrics"
If you are unwilling to perform the most basic tests, you'd best suck it up and take the bike to a dealership. Any competent Harley-Davidson/Buell mechanic who is familiar with Sportsters will be able to very quickly resolve this problem for you.
Good luck. At a minimum this is a great learning opportunity. 
(Message edited by Blake on May 30, 2008) |
Buell_bert
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 12:41 pm: |
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From the initial post it sure sounds like the bendix is shot. Also check the gears. I did not realize that the bendix is separate from the starter motor until I looked at the manual. |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 12:51 pm: |
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To aid discussion...
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Blake
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 01:02 pm: |
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To clarify, there is no actual "Bendix" drive in the current H-D/Buell starter. A "Bendix" drive is a mechanical version of a starter solenoid plunger/actuator. Starters have one or the other, not both.
Starter with Bendix Engagement (Helical Gear-Actuated Pinion)
The Bendix system places the starter drive pinion on a helically-cut driveshaft. When the starter motor begins turning, the inertia of the drive pinion assembly causes it to ride forward on the helix and thus engage with the ring gear. When the engine starts, backdrive from the ring gear causes the drive pinion to exceed the rotative speed of the starter, at which point the drive pinion is forced back down the helical shaft and thus out of mesh with the ring gear.
(Message edited by Blake on May 30, 2008) |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 01:06 pm: |
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Sparky
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 04:47 pm: |
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I stand corrected wrt levers in the starter. I was applying what I remembered about car starters.
But isn't there a type of Bendix drive in the HD/B starter? It is the spiral splined gear inside the Drive assembly/ overrunning clutch. Check the Figure (5.1?) in the Cyclone manual titled Starter Operation.
Although the manual doesn't state it, I believe its purpose is to mechanically disengage the drive pinion gear from the ring gear when the drive torque comes through the ring gear after the engine starts and not through the overrunning clutch during starting.
Note: this is different than the overrunning clutch which is to prevent the starter armature from flying apart when the engine starts.
Edit: I saw your revised post with the Bendix system diagram. The function of the helical cut driveshaft roughly corresponds to the HD/B spiral splined gear in Figure 5.1. |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 06:09 pm: |
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D'oh. Brain no workee well. The clutch, which prevents backdriving of the armature, does employ a bendix type mechanism. I don't think it disengages the pinion though, it just breaks the mechanical linkage between armature and pinion when the ring gear starts to backdrive the pinion.
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Blake
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 06:19 pm: |
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Meaning that even after the engine is running, as long as the starter button is engaged, the pinion is still spinning, just not the armature. Yes? |
Sparky
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 08:42 pm: |
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As long as the starter button is pressed, I'm sure that's true.
But when the engine starts and the button is released, I'm sure the helical gear and the return springs inside the solenoid push the pinion gear away from the ring gear.
So, to V74's problem, he's found the pinion drive gear turns both ways when the starter is installed in the primary, but when he took the starter out and apart, found the overruning clutch to be good -- it only turns one way.
Is it possible that this is a normal condition? I mean, if one were to try turning the pinion gear in the primary both ways, would it not want to spin the starter motor when turning the gear one direction, albeit with some resistance, and then, when turning the pinion gear the other direction, it would freewheel? |
V74
| | Posted on Monday, June 02, 2008 - 10:05 am: |
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hi all,thanks for the advice,will do the checks and get back to you,didnt think i would get this kind of response,thanks again, |
V74
| | Posted on Saturday, June 07, 2008 - 01:37 pm: |
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hi sparky and blake,the drive clutch was slipping under load, luckily i got a s/h starter and have replaced it with that,
thanks for all the advice. |
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Buell M2 Cyclone Starter Problem (Won't Turn Engine)