| Author | Message | ||
     Mikej |
There was a suggested fix for the breather setup where the drain hole was slightly enlarged and the umbrella valve pocket was slightly chamfered. The white smoke coming out the hole might be indicative of excessive blowby. How many miles are on the bike? A leakdown and compression test may probably be in order at a different shop than the one you already spoke to. Any decent bike shop should be able to do this test, and should be under $100. | ||
| Jmartz |
Todd: I'm running one of those billet 100cc cans with a tiny K&N. The breather hoses go up over the rocker boxes, tee and then down to the left side of the battery. No oil is ever in that catch can that I have to drain. | ||
| Aaron |
If a shop quotes you $100 to do a leakdown and compression test, keep in mind that you can buy the tools for that (assuming you've already got a compressor). Both tests are easy to do and you can probably do it all in 20 minutes. | ||
| Mikej |
The $100 I used was just based on his shop's quote of $800 to get down to the piston rings. At $800 they are probably removing the engine from the frame and breaking it down on the bench. Some shops have a minimum time charge of between $50-$100/hour. What is required for the leakdown test? I've never run one at home before, and I'll be setting up a garage this winter on limited funds so this could fit the budget. | ||
| Aaron |
Oh, I don't doubt that there are many shops that would charge that much, don't misunderstand me. I was just trying to make him aware that he can buy the tools and do it himself for about the same price. A leakdown tester that works fine can be had for $55 - $65, and compression testers are readily available in the $30-$40 range. The only hurdle is to make sure that one or the other comes with a 14mm to 12mm spark plug adapter. Everyone has 14mm, that's the most common spark plug size, but not all testers come with an adapter to take it down to 12mm, which is what our bikes have. | ||
| Fgoodspeed |
First off, many thanks for all you guys that answered with some very good stuff! -My bike only has a breather filter coming from the crankcase hoses, no catchcan so any oil that leaks/seeps out pretty much saturates the filter then begins to drip out. Does anyone know where I can purchase a catchcan and how much they run there abouts? Second, MikeJ mentions the part about the umbrella valve pocket being chamfered. What does this mean? I've read it somewhere else online as being part of a problem to oil seepage through the crankcase breathers but I'm unsure of what this entels. -The bike has a little over 19,000 miles on it. One thing I haven't heard anyone touch base on was the fact that the spark plugs were sooty and black. Is this normal or could it be an indication of bad piston rings? Thanks again, guys. I guess everyone refers everyone to the site for a reason  Fred  | ||
| Aesquire |
My catch can costs 5 cents,( plus $5 for filter ) since I won't get the deposit back. I run a gutted "stock" airbox, front jug 3/8" i.d. hose out of box (thru hole for rear jug's hose), back jug 5/16" hose works fine, & fits sportster banjo fitting, both up over the frame to can by battery. Feel free to spend $200 for custom billet aluminum, $45 for Jaz, or whatever. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Check out this thread (and many others, use the search utility)... http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=4062&post=154977#POST 154977 Ignore the arguments between Blake and Notsip. We worked it all out and we are all bud's now. It was a communication issue... Bill (who is relieved to see you here and not on Yahoo groups!) | ||
| Fgoodspeed |
Okay based on all this much appreciated information from you what do you think I should do first: Leakdown and compression test or drilling out the oil drain hole to 1/8" and camfering 60 degrees the hole in which the unbrella valve sits? Also, what's the best tool to use to chamfer the hole, and when it says "the middle rocker box cover I'm not quit sure what the middle is? Can someone please explain this and answer these other questions for me? Thanks again! Fred | ||
| Aaron |
Well, to my way of thinking, it makes more sense to diagnose a problem before you try to fix it. Besides, the test is much easier to do than messing with rocker boxes and it gives valuable information about the condition of your motor. The only hurdle is you've gotta have the tools, but hey, tools are a good investment, they provide a return for years and years. | ||
| Blasterd |
fgoodspeed, My plugs are always sooty and black and my bike has 6000 miles on it. I have been told (by a harley mechanic) that my bike might be running a litle rich. Ken | ||
| Mikej |
Yep, much easier to pull two plugs and do some testing than to pull the gas tank and rocker covers. | ||
| Fgoodspeed |
Excellent guys, thanks for the advice! Personally I hope it's just a matter of making the mods on the rocker cover plates rather having having the heads and pistons worked on  If it happens to be either of them I'll probably end up doing most of the labor myself to save on some $$$. Fred | ||
| Reepicheep |
Fgoodspeed... I agree with everyone else. If you pull the rocker box, they end up coming off as three pieces... kinda like stacked plates. This was an old Harley innovation that let the bikes run with little head to frame clearance, but still allow one to pull the heads (and even jugs) with the engine still in the frame. It was a clever idea... and it only took about four decades of iterations to get a gasket to put in there that won't leak after 7000 miles. Can't rush into these solutions willy nilly  | ||
| Fgoodspeed |
Okay folks, I just finished removing both rocker box covers along with the plates located below them that contain the umbrella valves. It was a fairly simple process and I followed the steps and photos from the manuel as my guide, taking pictures of everything as I did it for reassembly reference. The only visible thing I noticed on both plates is that the one that came off the back cylinder head had 1 umbrella valve while the one from the front cylinder head had 2 umbrella valves. I looked carefully to see if maybe the other umbrella valve had come off the rear but couldn't find anything, and any picture that I had to reference only showed the plates with the valves already removed, so that didn't help. Second question: Using some online material that I found on modifying the oil drain hole and chamfering the hole that the umbrella valve is seated on I'm about 100% certain that the drilling the oil hole with a 1/8 drill bit part is pretty strait forward and the easiest of the two task to accomplish. However, I'm not sure what tool to use to chamfer the area that the umbrella valve is seated on. From the pictures I had to go by it looks like all they did was grind the raise metal part down flush with the 3 arms that hold it in place. How is this chamfering done? Lastly, can anyone give me any first hand info. on experience using the product called "THE CURE?" I found a site today about it and was wondering if any of you had used it to help stop the oil puking problem? Again, thanks for all the help I've been getting on this board. Fred | ||
| Bluzm2 |
Fred, It appears someone put an addtional umbrella valve in one of your middle rocker boxes. You don't need to look for the "lost" one for the other side. It probably wasn't ever there. Just put them on the intake side of the cylinder. As far as chamfering the umbrella valve seat, just use a 1/4 inch or so drill bit. the angle is not that critical, you are just trying to make relief room for the flaired stem junction on the rubber valve. If you look closely at the umbrella valve where the stem joins the valve you will see it flairs slightly. You are just chamfering the hole so the valve sits flat. Look here at the pics I posted way back when..(Seems they are no longer in the Archive Vault) This is the stock middle rocker.  This is the modified version  Good luck! Brad | ||
| M2me |
I installed the Cure this spring and I honestly don't think it made any real difference. My oil puking problem is not real bad. I owned a 1992 883 Sportster before getting my 2001 M2 Buell and the Sportster puked oil almost exactly the same as the Buell. If I keep the oil around the middle of the dipstick it's not real bad. You should put in new umbrella valves for sure. I replaced mine and the rear one especially was like hard plastic. The new ones were very soft and pliable. Drill the drain hole to 1/8 and chamfer the valve seat like Brad says and that's about the best you can do to the middle rocker cover. I don't think the Cure product is worth it. | ||
| Fgoodspeed |
Ok check this out everyone, I spent the better part of Saturday at the local bike shop (with crankcase covers in hand) talking to the guys about my problem with the crankcase breather smoking and emitting too much oil while riding and out of the 3 guys there they all agreed that it had to be the umbrella valves. I guess judging from the looks of the old ones. Anyway, got all new gaskets, new umbrella valves and "the cure" kit because one of the mechanics had used it on several occassions and always had success with curing the puking problem. Ok, I got all that installed by Saturday night, follow directions and referencing the manuel step by step, went to bed, woke the next morning and.... Still Smoking. I didn't ride the bike so I don't know if the oil puking problem is still there or not but the smoking is definetly there still. White smoke from the crankcase breather's filter. The smoke has a fuel smell to it if that's any help. All the guys at the shop were very understanding and very reassuring that it wasn't anything as bad as the piston rings going bad but why is it still smoking. I wanted to get on the board again and see if anyone could come up with anything before I bring it in to have a leak down and compression test done on it. Could it have anything to do with the carb at all? No smoke what so ever from the exhaust, engine appears to run well. I did open the oil resevor after I turned the motor off to look at the oil level and it seemed a little higher than usuall and had a slight gas smell to it as well. Is there a way maybe that the gas is mixing with the oil and causing this problem? Dear God please tell me there could be something more simple than bad piston rings. ARG!!! Thank all. Fred ps-sorry for the mis-spelled words. | ||
| M2me |
Is there a way maybe that the gas is mixing with the oil and causing this problem? You should really have leakdown and compression testing done. Yes, there is a way for gas to mix with the oil but it's most likely bad rings or a bad intake valve/seal. If you have bad rings, you won't get good compression and some fuel won't burn. That fuel will then get past the bad rings and into the oil. Excess blow by, excess breather pukeage. To any engine experts here: Am I on the right track or am I just blowing smoke?} | ||
| Hootowl |
The lack of smoke in the exhaust would tend to make me believe that the rings are OK, but like the man said, do a leakdown test. Is it possible that you left your fuel petcock in the on position and have contaminated your oil with gasoline? | ||
| Docrecon |
Re: umbrella valves - I put the external check-valve thing (sorry, in a hurry, don't remember name, no time to look up, costs ~$80). The info that came w/ it says to REMOVE your umbrella valves when you use it; it will work just fine with 'em, but they say you don't need 'em when you use their product and it's best to remove 'em before they fail. >You should put in new umbrella valves for sure | ||
| Mikej |
"I did open the oil resevor after I turned the motor off to look at the oil level and it seemed a little higher than usuall and had a slight gas smell to it as well. " Question: do you turn off the gas petcock at night? Change the oil and filter, turn off the petcock at night or when not riding, then see if the problems cures itself. The leakdown and compression tests are still a good idea. There have been cases of gas seeping down into the pistons and into the oil, but it usually fills a cylinder instead of working directly into the crankcase. I believe the problem is with a slightly open check valve in the carb. Get the compression and leakdown tests. It will say much more than speculation at this point. And I have no idea what the Cure is, and the external breather check valves are suspect as well. When someone tells me they have "The Cure" for something I usually start looking for the snake they sucked the oil out of. | ||
| Ara |
Fgoodspeed - What Mikej said. Your S1, like all of the carbureted models, lacks a carburetor float bowl overflow tower. If you leave your petcock open when you're not riding and your carb slide doesn't happen to close fully, fuel will leak through the petcock, through the carburetor, and into whichever combustion chamber happens to have an open intake valve. From there it'll leak through the gaps in the rings into the crankcase. (It happened to me.) That would explain the slightly overfill oil reservoir, the smell of fuel from the reservoir, and the vapor (not smoke) from your breather filter. Do what Mike said: Change your oil and be absolutely religious about the petcock and see if the problem disappears. | ||
| Fgoodspeed |
Guys, I don't know what to say. This hit me like a ton of bricks and I hope to God it's the problem. I have left my petcock open on numerious occassions eventhough I know I'm not supposed to. It's just one of those things that I know I'm not supposed to do but end up doing it anyway. Damn, know I think I know where my son gets that from The petcock also has some play in it so I suspect it may be leaking. Probably a good idea to replace? I'll go ahead and change my oil and filter AND petcock I suppose just to be safe and see how that goes. Is there anyway to (I hate to use this term)"lubricate" the moving parts on my carb to assure that everything is going back into place when I kill the engine? Many thanks again, all. You have been more help to me than you can imagine and if we were all together I'd take you all out for sushi or something Fred | ||
| Mikej |
As long as your petcock isn't leaking visibly then it should be fine. It if ain't broke don't fix it. Plus the little o-ring under the petcock is occaisionally sensitive to reseating. Unless you were going to change to a higher-flow Pingle petcock or something you're stock one should be fine. There is nothing to really lubricate on the carb. Apart from a very occaisional cleaning it should be relatively maintenance-free for a very long time. Some people add in an in-line filter between the petcock and carb to catch any debris that may get through the fine-mesh screen around the petcock inlet tube, but others say these inline filter reduce their gas flow. Others say they go to a high-flow petcock and then add in an in-line filter. But before you do any of that, just change the oil and oil-filter and see if the problem is cured. A breadsack around a cold filter, or a chunk of tinfoil to direct the oil flow helps to reduce the mess when you remove the filter. And remember to add a few ounces of fresh oil into the new filter before installing it onto your bike. The service manual for your bike will cover all these details. Additionally I sometimes add a small white dot to the top of my oil filter as an indicator of it coming loose after I put a new one on. Just makes for a simple visual indicator. But then I've never had a filter backoff before either so the white dot is just a feel-good item. And Sushi is good after it's cooked. | ||
| Ara |
Sushi is good any old way.  My petcock leaked only once that I know of, but it was enough to fill one combustion chamber with fuel. The bike wouldn't start because the piston couldn't move upward. Fortunately this was in the parking lot of a H-D/Buell dealer and the figured it out. It was on that occasion that I had them install a carb float bowl from a Sportster - those have an overflow tower. | ||
| Road_thing |
Fred: One thing you CAN lubricate is the throttle cables--if they're dry and sticky, the return action can be a little uncertain. Do they even HAVE sushi in Hammond? When I graduated HHS in, well, the third quarter of the last century  , the closest thing to sushi was the live bait shop on Hwy 51 halfway to Ponchatoula... Mom still lives out by Robert. Have you found the good riding roads yet? r-t | ||
| Fgoodspeed |
Cool deal guys, sorry I haven't followed up with a post in a few days. Been down with some yucky virus that's going around. I plan on draining and changing the oil this weekend as well as spraying a little WD-40 on those throttle cables. I'll ride it a bit this weekend and see how she does and post something on Monday. Yes Road_Thing, believe it or not there is sushi in Hammond, LA now And it's actually really good. It's on East Thomas St. so if your ever in town try to stop by and try it. I haven't been riding much in Hammond, as I live in Baton Rouge and commute to work everyday but I do occasionally get to ride to work and sometimes take Hwy 22 to Springfield where my family lives. Fred | ||
| Road_thing |
Springfield?? Is the Bulldog Drive-In still open?? I had an unfortunate (but hilarious) incident there about 30 years ago involving a bottle rocket, a walnut milkshake, and a controlled substance... r-t | ||
| Fgoodspeed |
Now, there are 3 items that you normally don't see together. yep, the bulldog drive-in is still there how long has it been, r-t? |
