| Author | Message | ||
     Reepicheep |
Arghh. I must have some sort of massive karmic debt, because after 20k miles of bliss, now have another exhaust stud sheared, this time on the XB. I heard what sounded like a louder honk from the intake, and took some time to give the bike a good going over to try and figure out what was causing it, and finally spotted the sheared stud. *$&&^^@*# Having done this before on the M2, I'll be a lot smarter this time. No easy out for me thanks. So I think I will try fabricating a guide like the Jims tool, just some light work. As soon as the fabrication gets "not fun", or as soon as it looks like the drilling of the old stud looks like its going anything but perfect, I will bail and order the Jims tool. I'll post pictures here and let you know how it goes. Fortunately for me, it's that front stud, so it's very easy to get at. Tracing it back to root cause, I can see the front upper engine mount looks torn, and there is an updated part for the thing anyway. I'm guessing thats what lead me here. I've never even pulled the headers on this bike, and the rest of the exhaust is still nice and snug, so I don't think this was self induced. Ah well. We will see if I have gotten any smarter in the last 5 years  | ||
| Blake |
Might be a good idea to replace the other three studs while you are paying off some of that Karmic deficit. Did you know that failing exhaust studs can cause significant weight gain? But once they are replaced, the effect is the opposite. See, things may be looking okay after all.  | ||
| Reepicheep |
Geesh guys, where's the love? No "we feel your pain" or "we are here for you". What kind of support group are you anyway! Actually, the note I want is "I have the Jims tool if you want to borrow it". If not though, I'll just buy it (hey, Al Lighton needs to eat also), and then *I* will have one to loan. Fabricating one looks tempting as well... but it would be smarter to just buy the tool. I have officially ruled out "just drilling it by eye". Even though that worked fine on my M2, I just can't do it to the XB. Mighty tempting though, as this is a stud that could be done without rotating the engine. If I wanted to hack it, I could do it as it sits now. If I do it right with the Jims tool, then I have a lot of motorcycle to take apart. I traced the root cause further. The front isolator does look torn, but I had also lost the front bolt on that exhaust hanger. This was a huge surprise to me... and was actually a potentially risky situation. That was a big freaking bolt, and it was torqued to spec (those that know my history with Buell exhaust issues know I don't trifle with t hem). Now it's just gone, so I don't know if it sheared or backed off. I had one track day on the bike at mid ohio. The noise started after that though. No wrecks, no hard wheelie landings, no hard exhaust impacts. That bolt had been out and back in three different times. I know the manual says not to re-use that front strap (and it was replaced the third time), but I don't think it said not to re-use the bolt. If it did, then this was my fault. So anyway, one more thing to check. Peek down in that chin fairing and look at that front exhaust hanger bolt, and make sure it's still there. This is an 05 XB9SX for the record. If anyone wants to loan out the Jims tool, let me know. And if anyone can put an update here for short cuts for rotating the engine forward so I can get the header off, post that here as well. If I scare it up or figure it out, I will post here as well. I just finished completely stripping down and cleaning out the KLR carb (Keihn CV40, just like my M2 had). That, remarkably, went great, and the KLR two fiddy is running better then ever. | ||
| Bad_karma |
Bill Sorry to hear about the stud and mount. But any payment of Karma is welcome.  Joe | ||
| Blake |
You might ask Henrik if you can borrow a particular pair of shorts of his. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I'm afraid they would make my butt look big Just built a long list of links for engine rotation tips... http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show .cgi?tpc=32777&post=401771#POST401771 http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show .cgi?tpc=32777&post=394085#POST394085 http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show .cgi?tpc=32777&post=707510#POST707510 http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show .cgi?tpc=3842&post=615484#POST615484 More to come... any thoughts of other things I should do while i have it rotated? I'll be replacing plugs and doing a good inspection... | ||
| Reepicheep |
Well, rotation was like rocker box removal was on the tubers. Lots of little steps and fussy parts, but in the whole scope of things, not that big a deal. It took 2 hours on my first try, and I missed some pretty stupid stuff, and I was going deliberately slow and methodical. Lots of screws and things all over the garage though... many many pieces. I am reconsidering building my own tool to drill out the broken stud. Its a tough call in terms of time / money / risk. It seems a simple enough jig to create. | ||
| Buell_bert |
Anything with heat and dissimiler metals I use alot of a anti sieze compound. But thats after the fact. Otherwise a lot of heat and a pair of vise grips and a big prayer to the motorcycle Gods. | ||
| Reepicheep |
We are already *way* past that... it is (as usual) sheared a good 1/8th inch below the surface of the head. So it has to be drilled out. If I was smart, I would order the Jims tool and sit tight. Not being smart, and being cheap, and inclined towards adventure, I am sorely tempted to fabricate my own version of the Jims tool. If I was in a shop and would be likely to do this more then once, I would get the Jims tool in a heartbeat. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Hrmmph. The home made drill guide worked OK, but not perfectly. Close enough though. But I didn't drill out the hole big enough.. I was just touching the aluminum on one side and still in steel on the other. Thats where I blew it. I should have left the steel there, and drilled the hole the right size for the tap. Instead, I tried to use the tap slowly and carefully to put in the threads. I was hoping it would catch the old threads and just take out the remaining steel of the stud. Bad idea.... get far enough in that its a headache, tap binds, and I *stop* turning. Start to back the tap out, and it binds that direction also. I get that sick feeling. Work it forward, work it backwards, and *tink*. arrrrrrrrhhhrhrhrhhrhhrhghghghghghghghghghgh On the plus side, I go up to the hardware store and pick up a cobalt steel drill bit, a tungstin carbide dremel bit, and a stone dremel bit. The cobalt is useless on the tap. The carbide (sharp cone) will cut it, but is really the wrong shape. The stone bit actually rips through it fairly quickly and effectively. Got probably 60% through with the first ($5) stone bit... I'll get a couple more tomorrow. For others, I would recommend the jims tool. I'll probably succeed without it, but I should have just bought it. | ||
| Ceejay |
Reep!!!! Your scaring me, as my M2 followed the same path yours did. Good thing I bought an r Sorry I can't help, except to suggest a good whisky, you're not too far from the distillery actually. If you can wait mcmaster carr has some excellent bits available that'll make short work of your problem but I'll have to get to work to see if I have a newer one. That sux...at least the weather's right | ||
| Reepicheep |
Exactly! I have vacation to burn anyway, so if I wasn't doing this I would just be painting walls :/ The dremel tool with that stone bit (suggested by somebody here actually) was making really good progress through the broken tap. I'll pick up a couple more after Church today and have another go at it this afternoon. Don't use those diamond bits... they wear out more quickly and cost more then the stone bits, and cut slower. My debate right now is if I heli-coil it, or just tap it. Now that I have it "half tapped", I don't know if I will be able to drill out the last half without ruining the threads on the first half. I think the root of my failure was that front exhaust mount bolt. It was just *gone*, so I have no idea if it sheared or vibrated loose. I use locktite and I am careful with torques, but "stuff happens" and I might have missed something when I last reassembled. And that track day we did certainly stressed the XB harder then ever before, so that could have been a "defect discovery device". Just peek down through the hole in your chin fairing occasionally and make sure that bolt is still there and still tight. Thanks for the encouragement CeeJay! | ||
| Reepicheep |
My nemesis returns   A wise and rich man would buy the jims tool. A poorer man looking for an adventure would try and build one.  The bracket is like $11 from Harley, and the coupler nut was off the shelf at the local hardware store. The bolt sticking out the bottom was just there to keep it in place while I welded it. One nice thing about oxy act welding is that I can just lay something somewhere, even something as light as a nut, and it will stay put while I tack weld it.  All welded up. I cleaned it up with a wire brush, but didn't grind anything. My welds look a lot less embarrassing now then they used to look.  Chucked it on the drill press to get a square hole through the whole thing...   Bolted up to the bike, and ready to drill. This is where I blew it. I was being too conservative on drill size, and went one size too small. I should have gone to 1/4". It was actually a bear to drill, but maybe it was my drill bits. I ended up having to start with smaller bits, and work my way up, which made the guide less useful. It won't keep the small bits that straight, though it gives a good visual guide to keep it centered. I used the big drill to establish a center in the stud, but it was cutting too slow, so I went to smaller bits and worked my way up. The result:  This would have worked fairly well had the hole been just a shade larger. But it wasn't. And the dreaded "tink" hit while I was trying to tap it. So there I was again, 4 years after my last disaster on this same project (except an M2 that time), with a hardened steel slug wedged in my head. It was a fairly dark moment. It actually turned out much better this time though. The dremel stone bits (yellow one, whatever that is) ripped through that tap pretty well. And the tungsten carbide one (the bullet shaped one, not the sharp pointed cone one) ripped through even faster. So I machined and pounded (the tap steel is brittle) and kept blowing things out with a compressor, and in about 3 hours I had a clean hole again (deep enough, with some bits of tap wedged at the bottom). I threw the guide back on the drill press, made it the full 1/4 inch, and put the guide back on. I redrilled the hole to the full 1/4, and tapped it back out. It was not the best looking set of threads I have ever seen, but they were there, and it's a *deep* hole with a *lot* of thread surface. At that point, I could either drill bigger and put in a heli-coil, or take my chances with the "ok but not perfect" threads. I decided to start by just using the threads. My thinking is that if that stud *does* pull out, it's location is such that I can then slap in a heli-coil without even dropping the engine (front header). So either this repair will hold, which would be great, or I will just pull out and I will just put in the heli-coil then. Not a big deal. I'll just watch that stud. I was encouraged when I went to actually re-install the header. The factory torque spec for those things is absurdly low... like 72-90 inch pounds. I took it to 95, and it held solid. So far so good. It'll be after I get a few heat cycles on the thing that I will know. | ||
| Reepicheep |
The Jims tool would have solved the three problems that burned me. First, the hole would have been in the right place. You can see my jig "missed" a little. Secondly, the drill bit they include would probably be the right kind to cut once and cut right. I had to star with little bits and work my way up. My bigger bits were getting nowhere fast. Thirdly, the hole would have been the right size for the tap, if the tap was even needed in the first place, which it probably would not have been. And in looking back at those pictures now, the answer is obvious. I should have pulled the jig, put in a bigger bit, and adjusted the hole in the jig to match the "miss" visible. Then re-drilled. It still would have been fussy though, as the hole on the good stud size is bigger then the stud, and gives a lot of play. So for that matter, I could probably have adjusted the guide I already had and redrilled. It was a fun project (aside from the broken tap bit, but wisdom always comes at a high price). It'll be more fun if it holds up | ||
| Reepicheep |
One more moment of "brilliance in hindsight"... 1) use a dremel with a tungsten carbide tip to carve out a pilot hole dead center in the sheared stud. 2) use a small bit to drill that maybe 1/4 inch deep. 3) use that hole to line up the jig. 4) Be patient. Work your way up with bigger bits, but only go 1/4 inch or so deep at a time. use the biggest drill (1/4) to "re-center" the pilot point before you go back to a smaller bit to go the next 1/4 inch deep. 5) Don't be afraid to remove the jig and recenter. You could loosen the fixed side, use the drill bit to "find" the pilot hole you already know is in the center,and then tighten back down the fixed side being careful to not let anything move. (or, you could get the jims tool ). | ||
| Blake |
Thanks for taking me along on your adventure, very satisfying and interesting stuff. You emerged victorious! | ||
| Bombardier |
Hey there Reep, I noticed that the valve stem seems white. Is this just the photo or do you have some lean problem? Or is it the rocket fuel you run in the beast? | ||
| Bluzm2 |
Bill, The Jims tool has a lip on it that centers it in the port. No alignment problem. After seeing you go through this the last time and now have to do it again, I think I'm ging to order one just to have around. I've got 4 bikes here that vould potentially need it sometime. Brad | ||
| Reepicheep |
Good thinking Brad, you will need it sooner or later. The $80 or whatever was only part of my hesitation, the 5 days waiting for it to get here was another. I noticed the white crust all over the exhaust valve. It scared me when I first saw it on the M2, but I think that's how these engines look. The spark plugs were even worse, some kind of hard grey fur. Of course those were the original factory plugs after 20k miles. Its all more or less stock at this point... factory filter, factory exhaust, opened up air box (which I think adds noise and not power). I ran Castrol 5w50 for about 7000 miles as well, and the bike consumed a lot of it. I'm sure that didn't help. Thanks for your support Blake! (Message edited by reepicheep on December 17, 2007) | ||
| Road_thing |
Bill: You might have had better luck with a center drill to start the hole.  A 1/4" bit would have centered in your jig and also on the broken stud end. rt | ||
| Reepicheep |
Now you tell me That would have been perfect! Thanks for the tip, I'm sure it will come in helpful someday... If I had a "good enough" drill bit, would a 1/4 have cut the full depth by itself? Or do you always have to work your way from smaller to larger bits? I tried a couple 1/4 inch bits... one was a good one, one was a cheap one, and neither were going *anywhere*... | ||
| Road_thing |
Use the center drill to mark the spot, don't try to take it in much past the small diameter tip or it'll break (that "tink" sound you're all too familiar with!). The advantage to these things is that they're much stiffer than fluted bits and they won't wander off center when you put pressure on them. Once you get the hole started, you can take it up to final diameter a little bit (get it? "bit?" Jeez, I kill me sometimes...) at a time. I would think 1/8" increments would be OK. rt | ||
| Bombardier |
Just out of curiosity have you done a compression test as of late? The valve seat looks a little gouged. This may account for the lean/white on the valve as the valve is letting air back down the cylinder. The constantly changing temperature may also be the reason for the stud to fail. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Thanks Thing... so that first pilot hole is sufficiently deep that it then becomes it's own guide? That makes sense. The center drill translates my squareness from the external guide to the stud, and from there the new pilot hole in the stud becomes the guide, up to the last biggest (most important) bits, where the original guide gets to participate again. Thanks for the help... I never had a shop class or any good training for some of the basics of metal work. Bombardier, never had a compression test. Had a dyno when the bike had under 5k miles on it, with the intake mod and an exhaust gas plot, and that was fine. That stuff on there is this hard spongy crust, it's all over the spark plugs as well. There is 20k miles on the bike, and looking at the intake track its drinking significant amounts of spooge. Maybe its time to consider a catch can setup. When I was setting my timing, I bumped the engine over from the back wheel. I had to really wrestle with it, and you could hear the air slowly bleed out (maybe 30 seconds to pressure down enough that I could bump the engine over). That was on a stone cold engine. Both cylinders felt the same. It's been a tappy engine from day one, but has always ran fine. And based on chasing other XB9's and XB12's on the back straight at Mid Ohio on the inside pass event, it runs just like any other stock XB9, which is almost as fast as an XB12, which is good as it is one less distraction before the 1125R's rip past looking like the mellenium falcon jumping into warp I originally thought the root cause of the stud failure was a bad front motor mount... but once I pulled it off, it was clear that it was still fine. What was not fine was that that big bolt supporting the front exhaust strap was *gone*. I am very careful and methodical when I put things back together, but I'm human, and I had that can off about 2000 miles ago to re-paint it. The logical conclusion is that I did not properly torque it back down. I had also done the inside pass track day, which will no doubt manifest issues that street bikes will never discover. I accept that as part of the cost of a track day. They ask for safety wire for a reason I suppose... The stock plugs I pulled out of there had 20k miles on them... and while they looked really ugly, the bike starts and runs great. I'll probably shoot a copy of the picture to a tuner friend I trust, and see what they say, but I think its just a well used engine. I expected 40k-50k, and I was then going to rebuild. But that was before I started getting haunted by dreams of an air-cooled Helicon based Lightning.... | ||
| Road_thing |
Bill: That's right. All you really need is a dimple deep enough to keep your next drill bit from walking off center when you put weight on it. As I'm sure you've observed, fluted bits less than 1/8" are quite flexible. rt | ||
| Buellrcr |
on the race bikes i use the jims tool to get them out , then replace the with arp studs , have not broke a arp stud yet | ||
| Nautique4life |
Reepi and others AHH, I feel like we are best friends. You see, we are wearing the same shoe right now. I would like to thank you for laying this all out for me. This is also my second go around with a broken exhaust stud. The first was on the rear head, and I just threw money at a trusted mechanic to do the extraction. I have rotated the engine on my xb12r before for Micron installation, but that (rear exhaust stud) was a beast I wasn't touching. The second time around is a little nicer. It's on the front, and it's the easier of the 2 to access. No mechanic is willing to do the removal with the head still on the bike. Thus engine rotation comes back into play and CHA CHING!! SO, I too, am looking to purchase the JIMS tool and tame this dragon myself. My bike has been stationary for a couple weeks now. I had to get through Christmas first, but it's go time now. I have read all the post in this thread and hopefully have retained the wealth of information I need to do this. I just can't justify giving my mechanic $500, again! *Note* Upon inspecting as to why this happened twice in as little as 6 mo. I found that the aluminum inserts that live in the exhaust hanger eyelet were MIA. They were never there. I bought the bike, slapped a micron on her and never knew better. It will hopefully pay in the future to have educated myself on this. | ||
| Reepicheep |
It certainly makes it easier to swallow the $90 price for the Jims tool. My "cheap" solution cost me every bit of that much by the time I got the new tap, the dremel bits, and the drill bits. And it took a lot of time to do a mediocre job. | ||
| Nautique4life |
Well, I'm sure I will be posting in the coming days with questions. I'm thinking I should be able to attach the jims tool without having to remove the head. I dont know if the forks will impede my line at drill that sumbitch, but I have my fingers crossed. Did you order the new studs from Al or just pick em up from a local HW store? Once I obtain my Jims tool, I will gladly let some fellow badwebbers BORROW it, with hopes that everyone is on the honor system and it would get returned. I doubt the existance of a Bueller being dishonest to a fellow Bueller. In a perfect world. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I got the new studs from my Buell dealer, who had them in stock. There was a Jims tool being floated around badweb, and it made it about 3 transfers before it grew feet and vanished unfortunately. I should have just ordered the Jims tool from Al, and had him throw in some studs while he was packing it up (if he stocks them). There was a difference between the studs I got for my old M2 and the ones that I got for the XB... They were similar, and both would probably have worked, but they were a little different. |
