| Author | Message | ||
     Aesquire |
Champion (my old favorite) quit doing quality control. They used to test each plug, now they just ship em. I won't buy Champion any more. | ||
| Eastexsteve |
Blake, Even though I'm jetted a little on the rich side, the engine runs a tad warm. It's just the nature of the beast. After all, we all know the main funtion of the front cylinder on a Harley engine is to act like a blowtorch on the rear cylinder LOL! Besides, the climate I live in down here stays warm most of the year. The 8809 power sport plug crosses accurately in my references to a standard Champion RA4HC (heat range 4) and an NGK DPR9EA-9 (heat range 9.) Although, according to my data, it's probably a little cooler than the NGK. The bike ran noticeably better with them - until the one plug cratered. Champion claims the following about their power sports plug: These plugs are specifically engineered to increase power and reduce fouling in PWCs, snowmobiles, motorcycles and ATVs. These high performance plugs provide more power for quicker acceleration and less fouling for faster throttle response. Champion technology offers a variety of innovative features including the increased bore volume between the shell and the core nose to promote better scavenging of deposits that cause fouling. . .Projecting the core nose past the shell results in reduced misfire and more stable combustion. The Champion exclusive copper core ground electrode runs over 200° cooler than standard electrodes to reduce erosion. Of course, none of this means a crap if the center insulator keeps coming apart. | ||
| Blake |
It is my opinion that anyone advertising a significant performance improvement from a new spark plug design is pushing the limits of honesty. I don't know what Champion is calling a "standard electrode", but I'm skeptical of any of their claims. Platinum plugs do last significantly longer. I use them. There's no performance improvement as far as power goes though. A good hot spark is a good hot spark. | ||
| Anonymous |
Aesquire, What plugs DO you use then? | ||
| Aesquire |
Autolite, Nipon Denso, NGK, Buell. I loved Champions, but when they went "copper" I had fouling issues (cars & bikes), later a QC guy at Champion told me they quit 100% inspection, and went statistical process control. IMHO quality is not better now. I believe NGK & Autolite do 100% spark testing still. I'd have to ask to be sure. ( I admit it's hearsay evidence, but I observed Quality drop off, & auto parts counter guys tell me they have a high return rate.) (Message edited by aesquire on May 23, 2003, %time) (Message edited by aesquire on May 24, 2003, %time) | ||
| Anonymous |
Aesquire, I'm fairly sure at least two of the plugs you named are manufactured by Champion. Both AC Delco and Champion manufacture many of the plugs sold around the world under many different brand names. Anyone think the plugs shown above could have resulted from detonation? Or it could have just been a bad plug that was cracked during the crimp process. Be careful with the NGK and Nippon Denso plugs, they are a cut thread rather than a rolled thread. I've seen lots of spark plug holes stripped and cross threaded with NGK and Nippon Denso plugs. Great plugs, but can be a problem if you're not careful. Trivia question: What does AC as in AC Delco stand for? Find the answer here http://www.flint.lib.mi.us/timeline/autohistory_0798/championA.html | ||
| Aesquire |
oh no! my irrational prejudice against a mega conglomerate's product may be unfounded??! geez, next you'll tell me my american motorcycle has jappaneesee parts! ( I suspected Buell plugs were Champion, but thought Autolite was a different co.) | ||
| Eastexsteve |
Champion is owned by Federal-Mogul. Autolite is a Bendix company. NGK and ND are Japanese companies. Anyway, the bike these plugs came out of doesn't suffer from detonation. After this happened, I sat down and pondered the situation. It occurred to me that I have seen this problem happen with Champion plugs before. | ||
| Anonymous |
Yup, my old rusty eyes read another brand in there. Note that my old eyes have been know to see things that were not actually there. It could have something to do with the time frame of my teenage years. A better way to say what I meant is that many plugs are MANUFACTURED by someone other than the names printed on them. Didn't mean to imply that Champion and Autolite are one and the same. Sorry about that. | ||
| Henrik |
I've had the insulator fracture in the exact same way as you, Steve. Front cylinder - seem to recall it was an NGK plug. Of course this is of anecdotal/entertainment value only. Funny thing was, it happened on a road trip, and the bike ran fine the day before. When I got up to get going the next morning, the bike wouldn't start. Of course I hadn't brought the right size wrench to get the plug out - had to run around to find a shop that had one I could borrow. I did bring spare plugs though  Henrik | ||
| Firemanjim |
Henrik,are you home from trip to see JB2?How about some news,or read your e-mail. | ||
| Ccryder |
Well I think this is an electrical ignition problem (on my 96 S2T, 28,000 miles). 1st started having a miss around 5-6000 rpm. Checked plug wires and wires to coil. Now when the bike warms up I have a miss at most steady throttle position but worse at the 5-6000 range. Last night I changed the coil out but, when things warm up I still have a bad miss, but not all the time. This morning after about a 25 mile drive it dropped one cylinder completely for about 2 minutes and then picked it up and ran fine!! When it misses I will see that Tach drop very noticeably about 500-1000 rpm. It doesn't feel that the engine is slowing that quickly. Tonight I'll change plugs and pull the tank and tail section to make sure all connectors and connections are clean and tight. If that doesn't help the only other components would be the ignition module or the VOES. I am running the Screaming Eagle race ignition module. Anybody got any ideas??? TIA Neil S. | ||
| 99x1 |
AFAIK, (on that model) the tach is fed from the ignition module output to the coil, so if the tach is dropping more then the rpm actually is - the ignition module or cam sensor is likely at fault. Since it is heat related, use a hair dryer on the sensor and/or module, or once it acts up, spray circuit freeze (available at most electronics shops) to cool it down. The ignition system is a wasted spark, with the two spark plugs firing at the same time in series - a bad spark plug can cause problems on the other cylinder. (Normally the spark plug not on compression does not take as much voltage to arc). Good Luck | ||
| Ccryder |
John: Thanks for the ideas. On the S2 if it's a heat related issue, I would think more likely the cam position module since the ignition module is back behind the battery next to the VR but, the VR could produce some heat. I appreciate the brainstorm, next time I'm at ATS I owe you a cold one. Neil | ||
| Ccryder |
Well I tried to be as systematic as possible in this investigation. *1st I replaced the spark plug wires, no help. *2nd After replacing the coil I still had the missing. *3rd I made sure that the 3 pin connector from the "Cam" sensor was making good contact. That evening I took a short ride and things seemed better but I really couldn't build up the heat or run at 5000+ RPM. *4th On Saturday AM I replaced both spark plugs. I found both plugs with loose terminals. After this I ran Passion long and hard and she never missed a beat. I ran about 250 miles yesterday, 2 up, and she just Rock'd n' Rolled all day. So I'm happy but.... I wish there was a definative answer. Gut feel tells me it had to do with the 3 pin connector since I had to reroute it when I changed out the battery. Time will tell. Later All. Neil S. | ||
| Riccochet |
Riding in the rain is a neccessity for me at times. The problem is when I am riding in the rain the switches on my controls start acting up. The lesser problem is my turn signals freeze up (the light comes on but doesn't blink. The more serious problem is that The bike started by turning the key then "un-killing" the kill switch. After the engine fired to life the starter motor continued operating. In a matter of seconds (about 20)heating up to the point where touching it inflicted a rather sharp pain. My choices were to ride it anyway to get home or let it dry out. I took it for a quick lap of the small parking lot to determine if option 2 (riding)was practical. It wasn't, every time I pulled in the clutch the starter motor teeth would scrunch. I aborted the notion of riding it immediately. After stutting off the ignition and removing the key I cycled the switches several times and covered them so they could start drying out. Four cups of coffee later and fiddling with the switches and calling the little lady telling her I'd be late for dinner the bike started with the starter switch. I know the problem was water related because it has worked fine since then without further problems. I wrote the dealer and am waiting for a reply but I wanted to ask you all if you know of any fixxes to this problem, I was thinking of taking the housings apart and re-assembling them with a small ammount of liquid gasket. maybe smearing a small amount of vasaline or silicone grease around the contacts (but not the actual mating surface of the switch). Any other suggestions would be appretiated. | ||
| Blake |
What bike do you ride? Where do you live? Fill in your profile info; it will help us to help you. The switches on the Buell are the same as on many bikes. I doubt the problem is in the individual switches. Sounds like you have a short somewhere that is catalyzed by water. The starter should not have any way to run if the bike is in gear, the kickstand is up and the clutch is engaged. The whole thing sounds crazy to me. Possibly your starter button is shorted. Try blasting it with a liberal jetting/shower of contact cleaner. | ||
| Firemanjim |
CCRyder,I had a similar problem on my S-2 and it turned out to be one of the circuit breakers next to the battery.They take a beating and corrode internally.Started dropping a cylinder,especially when hot.Worth checking,and they are cheap at any auto parts house,I carry spares now. | ||
| Eastexsteve |
Riccochet; My 2001 M2 does the turn signal freeze thing. It has done it since day 1 new from the dealership. One trip to the car wash is all it takes. Once it dries out, it's OK though. | ||
| Riccochet |
Thanks for your replies guys, the turn signal thing is a nusance and could be dangerous if others (in cars) don't know what is happening. The starter not shutting out when the engine fires is a real bummer. Nobody likes the idea of getting stranded if they are caught by the rain. I'll keep you posted with anything the dealer says that might be helpful. Cheers | ||
| Hootowl |
If your turn signals don't work in the rain, the culprit is most likely the flasher. It is not a sealed unit, and its mounting location exposes it to spray from the rear tire. Remove the flasher, take the outer cover off, exposing the innerds. Clean all the corrosion off, reassemble, then seal it up with some RTV. | ||
| Eastexsteve |
I noticed that ever since I did exhaust and intake mods to my M2, I get a tach fluctuation between 3k and 4k at wide open throttle. I even get a sense that it's not running just right when this happens. Does the ignition module in the M2 monitor manifold vaccuum? What could be causing this? | ||
| Stefan_f |
Something about Plugs: I read your discussion about the plugs. I've tested the Brisk-Plugs in my Buell M2 and Sporty 883. Result: better starting, runs smoother. Last saturday, I tested the performance on a dyno (20 runs). The Brisk-Plugs really give more power to the engine! - 2 (DIN) PS and 2 Nm ! See the chart! Stefan  | ||
| Blake |
Were the stock plugs new or used? | ||
| Aaron |
Beware of normal run to run variations and creeping results as the temp of the engine & oils changes. I'd probably go back and retest the first configuration after the second, i.e. do an A-B-A kind of thing. | ||
| Eastexsteve |
Blake, This is an update on my earlier post regarding using one-piece spacers to shim the carb needles in the M2 as opposed to 2 or more small washers. I posted a few messages back that I would sometimes get tach fluctuation and what felt like a mild stumble between 3k and 4k ever since I did exhaust and intake mods. I ended up going to about .080 worth of washers under the needle. It sounds like this would be too many, but this is where it ran the best. I am close to sea level. However, I still had the intermittent mild hesitation and tach fluctuation. Last week, I changed out the .080 stack of washers for a single aluminum spacer .080 in thickness that fit snugly around the needle and was the same OD as the top of the needle. The result was a sputtering too rich condition from about 3k to 4k at WOT. I started backing down on the thickness of the spacer in .020 increments until it got too lean at .020. I settled on a .040 thickness on the spacer and it seems to be perfect. Smooth good pull to 3.7k and then it really starts to take off. No more tach fluctuation either. Te only thing I can figure is that the stack of four washers that were rather roughly finished and wallowed around on the needle was allowing too much air to be sucked up around the needle where the needle sits in the hole in the bottom of the slide. It's also possible that the washers were not allowing the needle to be completely perpendicular to the hole. Whatever it was, it's fixed now! | ||
| Stefan_f |
Brisk-Test: I did exactly what Aaron said! First I tested with used orig. plugs, than with the (used) Brisk-plugs and after that with the orig. plugs again! Believe me - you can really feel the smoother run with the Brisk-plugs. These plugs are used by BMW-drivers here in Germany, too. The better performance is no secret to them. Stefan Here a pic of the plug:  edited by Stefan F. on June 19, 2003 | ||
| Blake |
I think over here those plugs are called "Torquemasters." It does seem like a neat idea having the annular configuration instead of the conventional finger design. | ||
| Al_lighton |
Sparky (Darryl Salmon) swears by 'em. I've never used them myself. I question whether I'd be able to tell the difference. | ||
| Ccryder |
Take a look at Torque Master I swear by them. I can tell a difference in at least smoothness b/t the T-M's and even a new conventional plug. My set in Stripe'r has 60,000 miles on them. Neil S. |
