| Author | Message | ||
     Ccryder |
Here is the result of an ignition sensor gone haywire. This sensor got so overheated it melted it's potting out.    Time to call NRS and order a 1250 kit and send off the heads for a thorough going over.  Such is life. Neil S. | ||
| Jim_witt |
Woa, How many miles on that puppy? -JW:>  | ||
| Josh_ |
Man that sucks for you. 'Course that means I get to test ride a 1250 S2 in the future Let me know if you need help, I see the light at the end of the tunnel on my project. Front end is complete and on the ground, motor is 1/2 way there. Isolators/rear tire haven't been started. josh | ||
| Kcbill |
Neil that stinks. Hey if you can swing going to the XB9 heads do it. They work better than the Thunder Storm heads. NHR and some others have proven it. Have you seen Arrons post on his motor? Runs on pump gas. | ||
| Blake |
I had the same type of sensor failure, not quite as melty looking though. How do you come to conclude that a cam position sensor failure could cause your trouble with the pistons/valves? | ||
| Ccryder |
Blake: I am not 100% sure that the sensor was reesponsible for the piston/ valve trouble. I just feel that it probably started the destruction of the pistons and once the damage started it quickly escalated. Now for the $64k question: I feel that the cases need to be split and all bearings reviewed/ renewed as required in order to feel warm and fuzzy about this engine living a happy long life. What is the collectives' thoughts on this? Thanks Neil | ||
| Pammy |
Buy a new motor | ||
| Mikej |
That be ugly. 100% teardown, then decide. Someone just posted a $3000 S2, might be a good option to consider. Bolt in the engine to your bike and go ride sooner. | ||
| Blake |
Neil, How would the sensor failure instigate the piston damage? | ||
| Ccryder |
Last Pictures of Passion's pistons.   The engine is in good hands now and being brought back to life  . Neil S. | ||
| Pilk |
To answer Blake, if the timing was adjusted to far advanced detonation ''could'' lead to what we see here. Just my thoughts, I know it will happen on car engines, and I have had to rebuild several Johnson boat motors because of faulty ignition modules, I don't know though if the Buell module advances the spark on the S-2. Pilk | ||
| Ccryder |
Pilk: I don't know either but plug color looked ok prior to the missing and eventual stopping of the engine. I tried to trouble-shoot the 5k rpm miss but it came and went, but mostly came when the engine warmed up. From some people in the "know" they felt the aftermath was indicative of ignition timing going haywire. Neil S. | ||
| Peter |
Ccryder, Couldn't you just file off the rough stuff and put some new rings in? | ||
| Mikej |
"Couldn't you just file off the rough stuff and put some new rings in?" I think we need a tongue-in-cheek smiley icon, and soon. | ||
| Aaron |
This from the guy who puts his cylinders in a torque plate before checking ring end gap. | ||
| Aaron |
BTW, I'd sure be looking for the root cause of this problem. I mean, it's pretty clear it got some bad detonation going on (w/9:1 compression?), and the sensor is damaged as well, but for the sensor to have caused this seems like it must've been telling the module that the engine was ahead of where it really was. Doesn't strike me as a likely failure mode. But I could be wrong. | ||
| Ccryder |
I was thinking more like a hammer and chisle, then followed by a Bastard file for that "fine" finish.  Later Neil S. | ||
| Aaron |
And another BTW ... the new flywheel assembly ('00 and later) is reasonably priced, lighter, stronger, and can be fitted to your cases with some minor machine work. I wouldn't even mess with your old one. | ||
| Hoser |
What AW said , it's not difficult , having just done one. That's NASTY !!!! | ||
| Ccryder |
AW: I am still trying to find the root cause. While the carb is off I'll make sure it's all clean and happy. The only thing that really stands out is the ignition sensor. After the engine stopped running it would not produce any spark until I changed the sensor and then it was real strong. Since I acquired Passion, she has really popped during closed throttle deacceleration. I had changed intake seals the 2nd weekend I owned her. During the post trama teardown the exhaust seals appeared to be sealing on the header and the intake seals also appeared to be sealing. So those seals seemed to be doing their job. I even changed the seal on the carb to intake. I'm open for any other suggestions of where to look or what to do since I don't want this to happen again!  Time2Work Neil S. | ||
| Blake |
How do you deem seals to "appear" to be sealing? Just wondering what your methodology is on the issue, since popping on deceleration is a sure sign of an exhaust header gasket leak. | ||
| Ccryder |
Blake: I looked at the witness marks on the end of the header. They are to the point that you can see the markings from the gasket material. The intake seals show a shadow/ marking from where they seated. I'm begining to feel like an investigator from CSI looking for the telltale signs of things working and things gone bad. Neil S. | ||
| Blake |
I think it's a big jump to base any conclusion about seal integrity on a lack of signs of a leak. If you found evidence of a leak, that would be conclusive, but lack of evidence of a leak does not conclusively prove the integrity of the seals at the time of engine failure. See the difference? It is sure seems most likely that excessive heat caused the sensor failure. How could a failed/failing on/off switch advance the ignition? | ||
| Captpete |
Those pistons... I think I've been one-upped. I'm not trying to be a smartass, Neil, but did you ride it home? The piston displayed in my profile came from a motor that I shut down at the first sign of a problem, which was that it wouldn't respond to a slight increase in throttle on the interstate. (I'm gettin' pretty good at this routine - lots of experience with failed motors.) I hope this is your last episode. Capt. Pete | ||
| Hoser |
All these pistons , ......... um , they wouldn't be wiseco , would they ?? , I have observed four separate failures on sportsters this last six months , of course wiseco has no knowledge of a problem ! | ||
| Captpete |
Hoser, Failures # 2 & 3 were Wiseco's, but the other five have been full-skirted pistons. It ain't pistons, and it ain't a lot of other things as well. We're pretty sure we've found the solution, but won't know for certain until engine #8 stays together. Capt. Pete | ||
| Peter |
Pete, What do you think it was? | ||
| Ccryder |
Captpete: No it stopped running, first on one cylinder then very shortly the other. After that it would turn over but sounded funny  . Actually this happened on Tuesday and over the weekend I had ridden 350+ miles 2 up and it ran fine. Pete, if you have ANY insight to what could have caused this I would appreciate your, er, ah, experience. I can call you if you'd like so it's on my $0.05, drop me a line. Hoser: No not Wiseco pistons. These were Hurricane. I am trying everything all the experienced Wrenches have suggested. Just for added insurance I'm putting in some squirters, replacing the oil lines, flushing EVERYTHING, crank being replaced, bearings, Millenium cylinders and Hurricane pistons, heads reworked 100% including springs , valves, guides, seals, intake and exhaust seals and the carb cleaned. Have I missed anything? Oh yeah my wrench Al found a cracked clutch hub and it is being replaced (thanks Al and Aaron)I was running Mobile 1 V-twin and will continue with that. The only ignition component not replaced has been the ignition module. For $100.00 I'll probably replace that just to complete the rebuild. Well time to work so I can pay for these goodies. Later Neil S. | ||
| Captpete |
Neil, IMHO: When you dropped that first cylinder, it was dead. All the rest was just the death rattle. Like I said, I've done this so many times now, that I'm getting pretty good at it. I can catch it before that first cylinder ever drops out... but it's still too late. I said above that we think we've found the solution. The maddening part is, we haven't actually found the cause. And we may never. I have to agree with Ron Dicky, who's been kind enough to give me hours of his time on the phone and the benefit of his encyclopedic wealth of knowlege when he says, "There ain't no silver bullet. It's a combination of a whole lot of little things." The big mystery is why some of these engines do this while most don't. The list of things that have been eliminated through seven failures is extensive. In addition to that, everything in the top end has been cryoed, cycled eight times, and everything has been coated inside and out with the various latest coatings available. Plus, the engine is not over-built. It's an 88 incher that's only putting out 103 rwhp. (That's a little misleading: it pumps out 109 ft. lbs. of torque. It'll eat a 135 rwhp rice rocket's lunch when it's able to step up to the table.) Like I said before, we won't know for certain until # 8 goes back together in another month or so and passes the test. Until then, I'm making no other claims. I know Pammy's already given you her best advice. My experience suggests that you take it. Otherwise, you're in the same boat as me, unless you're willing to wait and see how we make out with this one. Pete: You've got mail (in a couple of minutes). Capt. Pete | ||
| Peter |
Thanks Captain, So have you.  |
