| Author | Message | ||
     Jhanz |
I would like a few suggestions for non-synthetic engine oils for my 2006 XB9SX (besides the Harley 360). Any insights would be appreciated. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Not to restart the endless oil debate... but why the requirement for non synthetic, and what are you planning on your oil change interval being? (No offense taken if you want to just ignore my question and wait and see if anyone will answer...) | ||
| Az_rider |
I prefer non-synthetic oil in my XB12X because I have seen many reports of 20w/50 synthetic oils shearing to a 30w in 3-5000 miles in Harley engines (bobistheoilguy.com). Why pay more for a synthetic if you still have to change it every 2500 miles? I use Shell Rotella 15w/40 (they don't make a 20w/50). I think it works very well. How do I know? I have had my oil analyzed three different times. See the thread titled "Oil Analysis". The Rotella stayed a 40w each time, it did not shear. Wear metals look good. And my oil temps are 15-20 degrees cooler with the 15w/40. That is good enough for me. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Interesting! I thought Rotella *was* full synthetic... How about that? I wonder how they do so well with a non synthetic base stock. All the data that I have seen agrees that if you are changing your oil every 2500 miles, synthetic is probably just more expensive. | ||
| Sloppy |
Jhanz: Use a name brand oil the fulfills the API-C requirement and viscocity ranges from the manual. I prefer synthetics as they are cheaper to use (higher capital costs but lower operational costs) and offer greater protection than their counterparts. But if you will be changing oil at a greater frequency then you may not benefit from the lower operational costs so non-syn may make more economic sense. | ||
| Blake |
Rotella is good quality conventional oil. It ain't synthetic, and it won't measure up in performance to the better synthetics. Any xxW50 weight oil whose viscosity drops to that of a 30 weight oil at operating temperature is complete garbage, and I'd sure like to know which brand of oil that was and how that information was obtained. I've never heard of such poor performing synthetic oil. I've not heard of such poor performing conventional oil. I suspect that information was obtained through some contrived wildly non-real world testing scenario . This would likely be akin to the ever popular four-ball wear scar testing that has little merit in evaluating an engine oil. Viscosity retention is but one of the major performance parameters for an engine lubricant. That said, if the oil is going to be replaced every 2,500 miles or less of street use, then a conventional oil is the less expensive way to go. I wouldn't trust the blathering on some "bobistheoilguy.com" web site. I've seen some of what is offered there as "technical" evaluation that doesn't come close to passing muster. Lots of folks posting to discussion boards or their own sites on the internet like to pretend that they are scientifically minded objective technical experts. In truth, few are. In the end it often turns out that these self proclaimed technical "experts" have ulterior agendas and are simply trying to smear their competition or promote their own products. On the internet, it is tough to know one way or the other, unless you have the technical expertise to see it. The internet and the infomercial have spawned the golden age of snake oil hucksterism. Buyer beware! Anyway back to our interesting oil discussion.  Some point to consider: Is it technically valid to proclaim any oil acceptable let alone preferable based upon a few oil analysis reports? Is it logical or objective to base one's preference for a conventional lubricant over a synthetic oil upon the poor performance of a few inferior synthetic lubricants, especially when the information is gleaned from some unofficial open source web site and who know's what kind of testing protocol? Using that same logic would it not be equally valid to base one's preferred choice of a synthetic lubricant upon the poor/inferior performance of a few crummy conventional oils? Would anyone bet against being able to find valid evidence of inferior performing conventional oils? Can anyone point out any modern high dollar industrial heavy equipment, generator packs, aircraft engines, jet engines, spacecraft, exotic sports car engines or multimillion dollar racing vehicle engines that do not use synthetic engine lubricant? Rotella is good oil and if you change it often enough, you won't go wrong using it, unless the ambient temperature exceeds that for which a W40 weight oil is recommended for your Buell. One problem I have with running any conventional 10W40 engine oil is that conventional 10W40 oils are the absolute worst when it comes to retaining their viscosity index (VI). The significant quantities of additives required to achieve such a large VI in a conventional oil are more susceptible to break down, namely thermal breakdown. Good quality synthetic oils do not require any additives to achieve the incredible VI's that they provide. Even with additives, conventional oils cannot match the VI performance of synthetics. With all else being equal, when starting a cold engine on a cold Winter morning, a 5W50 or a 0W40, or a 5W40 are all far superior to a 10W40. This discussion never really gets old. Continuing is valuable I think. | ||
| Reepicheep |
My experience with 5W50 sucked. My 9sx will consume 5w50 (Castrol Syntec 5w50) at an alarming rate. Mobil 1 15w50 or Castrol Syntec 20w50? Barely any consumption at all. The only thing I could figure is that they must measure the viscosity index between a narrower range then your engine actually runs. So while the Castrol 5w50 full synthetic is indeed 5w50 for the purposes of the test, when you go above whatever temperature they test it at, its viscosity falls off the proverbial table top somewhere. Another way of saying that (since that paragraph above sounds confusing)... So at 100 degrees C 20w50 is acting like a 50 weight oil, and 5w50 is acting like a 50 weight oil. But at 120 degrees C, 20w50 is acting like a 45 weight oil, but 5w50 is acting like a 30 weight oil (and dissapearing at an alarming rate). Pure speculation of course... but something makes my bike drink 5w50 at a prodigious rate. | ||
| Sloppy |
My understanding of mult-vis oils is that the low number is the base stock with polymers added to make it "act" like the higher numbers. As the oil's polymers are used (sheared, heated and broken), the oil reverts back to it low vis state. So that 5/50 stays at a 5 until a certain temperature is reached where it starts to act like a 50 weight. Then as the oil degrades, it eventually goes to 5 weight oil no matter what the temperature is. And remember, at startup, it's just like a 5 weight oil and I would imagine that the clearances between the oil ring and cylinder are far too large on an air cooled engine to try to seal with a 5 weight oil. Bottom line is -- follow the owners manual. Engineers don't write them for the entertainment... To follow up on Blake's note (good points Blake), I run 800 hp compressors with nothing BUT synthetics and I have no reserve equipment. We use vibration monitoring, thermal monitoring and oil analysis to run our Predictive Maintenance Programs, and quite simply, non-synthetics don't carry the protection that's needed on these equipment. Not only is equipment reliability important, but it's also process reliability that we have to ensure. | ||
| Blake |
Bill, The upper rating is at 100oC (212oF). The lower rating is the oil is for 0oC (32oF) and the "W" indicates that the oil is mulit-viscosity formulated for Winter use. Sloppy, "My understanding of mult-vis oils is that the low number is the base stock with polymers added to make it "act" like the higher numbers..." Add "at 100oC (212oF)" to that and you have it. Also, there are no "polymers added" to good quality synthetics to achieve their superior multi-vis performance. Here's an interesting question to test your knowlege of oil tech: Which has a higher viscosity, a 5W50 oil or a 10W30 oil? | ||
| Sloppy |
At what temperature? Kinematic or Dynamic Viscosity? (Message edited by sloppy on March 09, 2007) | ||
| Reepicheep |
OK, so what is the operating temperature of my engine... 275 Deg F? (guess from memory). So, what is 5w50 at 275, and what is 20w50 at 275? My XB9SX says there is a dramatic difference in the two... | ||
| Jhanz |
I haven't checked in since I posted my initial question. To answer reepicheep: I wanted suggestions for a break-in oil, other than the Harley brand. I picked up the Mobile Delvac 1300 15w 40 Diesel oil. Any insights on this oil? | ||
| Reepicheep |
Its a good brand with the right specs (reasonable viscosity and diesel rating). Sounds like a good choice to me. | ||
| Sweatmark |
Delvac 1300 Super - Mobil's product in long-time competition with DELO 400 (Chevron), Rotella T (Shell)... good stuff as far as conventional over-the-road diesel oils go. "Diesel Engine Locomotive" DEL, "vacuum" VAC from Socony-Vacuum Oil Company, in case you wanted to know. Sold this stuff when I worked for Mobil in Commercial Lubricants. I'd put it in my Buell... in fact, I should next oil change! Mark Oregon | ||
| Jhanz |
Thanks for the insights. | ||
| Mwbob |
Just some thoughts here: Why the fascination with diesel oils? Our engines aren't diesels. I'm sure that there are dozens of design factors that are considered when making engine oils for gas as opposed to diesel engines. For instance large diesel engines have greater clearances than gas engines and therefore experience more blow-by while warming up. One of the factors considered by manufacturers is the negative effect of diesel fuel mixing with the oil. This doesn't make it a better oil for a gas engine. Also, a friend of mine who happens to be a petroleum engineer insists that synthetic oils may be superior by some measurements, but that in the real world, standard motor oils perform virtually identically to them. Finally, it's just my notion, but I'd rather change an oil more frequently than have the finest synthetic for 10-15k miles. | ||
| Reepicheep |
The fascination might be rooted in the service manual, which says that if you can't use official Harley Oil, that you should get Diesel rated oil of the right viscosity. I know it was in my M2 manual anyway, not sure if it is still in the XB owners manuals or not... | ||
| Jhanz |
Regarding the diesel oil thing. I know that Commercial, (C) rated oils are considered a good choice for air-cooled engines that run hot. I am planning on switching to synthetic soon, but wanted to use petroleum oil during the break-in period, partly due to the fact that I will have changed the oil a few times during the break in period. I can buy a gallon of high quality diesel oil for 11 bucks. | ||
| Jhanz |
Reepicheep, yes it says the same thing in the XB manual. |
