| Author | Message | ||
     Sgthigg |
If an engine was not broke in properly, or was switched to syn oil too soon and the rings did not seat properly can it be rebroke in with regular oil? This might be a dumb question, but if it can be done please post how. | ||
| Rocketman |
Remove the cylinders, hone, replace rings. Start again. Rocket | ||
| Blake |
Sean's advice is sound for sure. A compression and leak-down test might be worth the effort/expense. If they show a problem, the issue would be handled under warranty. But I'm lazy, so your idea seems like it would be worth trying. You might try the run it hard technique of break-in too. Also please consider that sometimes it takes a lot longer than expected to get the rings to seal well. In cold weather, you might also try running an acceptable lower viscosity motorcycle specific oil. Not sure if HD/Buell offer any xxW30 engine oil or not, but that might be the ticket to facilitate cold weather ring sealing. The 20W50 may just be too viscous if it is not reaching normal operating temps. You might also consider covering the oil cooler in cool weather. I'm lazy, so before tearing into the top end, I'd be inclined to try some of the above, while also being careful to abide by warranty guidelines.  | ||
| Pammy |
Blake, a leak down would be more apt to tell where the leak is happening. (valve guide seals or rings) What indication is there of poor ring seal? If the rings aren't sealed within 500 miles...likely as not it ain't gonna happen. Synth oil would not likely cause your trouble. | ||
| Rocketman |
What valve guide oil seals? I don't have any Pammy. Never did. Rocket | ||
| Blake |
Me say "compression and leakdown." You no read good. ![: ]](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/proud.gif) Me now sic Tramp on you. On account me not too brave, no can battle fierce queen.  | ||
| Bluzm2 |
Rocket, Your not stock either! | ||
| Jlnance |
What makes you suspect the rings are not properly seated? Oil consumption? | ||
| Reepicheep |
And the *real* question here (which I think is what Pammy was getting at) may actually be: "Will rebraking in an engine help you if your cylinders were badly out of round from the factory". A viable option here, so long is you are not having troubles with fouled plugs, is "keep adding oil and riding the bike". My 1995 saturn is effectively a full loss oil system at this point, it consumes 4 qts of oil in 4000 miles (my preferred change interval for non synthetics). My solution? Keep adding oil, and change the filter at 8,000 miles or so. The car is not fouling plugs, and it breezes past full dyno emissions checks. | ||
| Rocketman |
I thought it was Buells policy to address problems, rectify and make happy Buell owners? Out of round cylinders date from 1997/8. Reep, you can't be serious! Rocket | ||
| Blake |
Bill, Out of round cylinders?  That seems to me to be a wild assumption. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I don't have first hand experience in the matter measuring cylinders pulled from newer Buells, so I won't defend the point beyond saying I am free to speculate and have an opinion. That's all I will say about it, take it as just one more unsupported opinion. If anyone has first hand experience pulling factory cylinders, slapping them in the necessary compression assembly and bringing them up to temperature (which I understand to be a pretty tricky problem in and of itself), and measuring to see what degree they no longer represent a cylinder, I would ***LOVE*** to hear what the data shows. | ||
| Blake |
How does that relate to the man's question concerning rings seating is what I am wondering. | ||
| Jlnance |
it consumes 4 qts of oil in 4000 miles LOL - I don't think you need to change it at all. It changes itself every 4000 miles. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Presumably because he is burning oil, which he thinks is because he did not break the engine right, which he things is because he went to synthetic oil. Which is even less likely then the reason to be consuming oil being is that his cylinders are out of round | ||
| Blake |
I agree that could be a possibility. Just not sure that was what Pammy was alluding to or that it is the most likely possibility. You could be 100% correct though. If it were me, on account of I am lazy, I'd fill the engine up with a motorcycle grade 0W40, ambient temperature permitting, and run it through the paces repeatedly to see if the rings might just need a little convincing to sealing up with the cylinders. First though would be the compression and leakdown tests to determine what/where any possible leakage or poor sealing may be occurring. | ||
| Pammy |
Blake, I READ that you said compression AND leakdown  ...what I am saying is that LEAKDOWN is the way you will tell where the leak may be. A compression test can, itself, be mislead by too much oil being present in the cylinders...see? I was not alluding to the cylinders being 'out of round'. But of course that is a possibility. Also, with the limited info that was given, all the above posts as fine as they all may be, are purely wild assumption. Not enough data in to recieve proper data out. As far as the break in period. Think about it. You have 2 metal surfaces scrubbing against one another, thousands of times with varying and possibly extreme temperatures and pressures...Do you really think that it would take more than 500 miles? No, it shouldn't. Unless the metal surfaces aren't touching each other or the scrubbing, that took place, glazed the mating surfaces(EXTREME heat or VERY repetive RPMs). Or by some wild happenstance, the ring gaps have spun and aligned themselves with one another. Rocket, I am not sure how you are keeping the oil from running down the valves, but I would be interested. | ||
| Rocketman |
I don't believe I am Pammy. I do have some oil consumption but I don't measure it with any accuracy to mileage. I just keep the level where it needs to be. When I rebuilt this motor it was the first time I'd ever had one apart, and put one back together again. Just Harleys put the motor together the first time, and they had the heads off after that too. I took the heads away that time to repair the broken mounting area, and paint them. I removed the valves then and there were no valve guide seals present, and that's how I returned the heads to JH's after repair and paint, for them to put back on the motor. There followed the broken rod episode, after which I just rebuilt the motor exactly like it had been copying the first rebuild (the HOT one), using ALL the same parts, except I used the correct size Wiseco circlips. Here's a thing, and please correct me if I'm wrong. In the 1997 S1 workshop manual there is no mention or pictures of valve guide oil seals, as I seem to remember questioning myself as to whether there should be some or not. That's based on my old Triumph's that had no valve guide oil seals either. What do you think / recommend? Rocket | ||
| Pammy |
I think you should have valve guide seals. Detonation and damage can follow oil contamination in the combustion chamber(as you are probably aware) There is a technique to installing valve guide seals. Improper installation can result in oil consumption such as you experiance now. | ||
| Rocketman |
Jeez, you mean I should pull the heads again? This Buell is more high maintenance than a dizzy blonde!!!! What about the workshop manual info Pammy. Do you have a thought on that? Thanks for the advice honey. Sean | ||
| Blake |
Okay. | ||
| Pammy |
Sean, I am not sure about the manual. I don't have a manual for the S1. I am in Georgia(still) now, but when I get home I will check my personal manual for the X1. It should have valve guide seals listed in the manual, because the head is supposed to have them. Maybe it was just forgotten in the printing. That's a huge step to miss... Wes sez that if you run 200 weight oil, you don't need seals....he's such a funny, funny man. | ||
| Rocketman |
Well I'll check my S1 manual and tell Wes my way is more cost effective. I'd thought of using no oil LOL Rocket | ||
| Blake |
From Figure 3-9 on page 3-13 of the 96/97 S1 Lightning Service Manual:  | ||
| Rocketman |
Blake, I already pissed myself off this morning when I opened my own manual. How did I miss that? Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
My memory has returned. I can tell you why I didn't put seals on my guides. There's no where for them to sit. The guides in my heads don't look like the ones in the pic you posted Blake. So Pammy, how am I keeping oil in them there heads. All I know is Dick O'brien flowed my heads and the guides are an unknown quantity to me. I'm assuming they're stock guides - and they've been cut back and blended into the ports. That much I can see. But the guides in the pic above are S1 from 1996. My heads are TS from 98. Are the guides different perhaps? As for oil consumption, I only really notice the level dropping if at all, when I've ridden her hard for a couple of hundred miles or more, then I top up. I'd say that the guides if anything are not losing oil enough if at all to concern me. Remember, this is how she was set-up before and she did nearly 10,000 trouble free miles, including several track days and a full season of drag racing, without any oil problems. I also rode her down to the South of France via Belgium, Luxembourg and Switzerland then back again in a fortnight, with no oil consumption issues. Then I go back to my Triumph days and none of my Triumphs ever had a valve guide oil seal either. Oh yes, those motors were always apart LOL I dunno? I guess I'm just going to monitor the oil and type of stick I give her and see if there's an issue or not. Rocket | ||
| Steveshakeshaft |
Rocket, the guides did not change between Lightning and TS heads. The standard factory guides are Cast Iron, tuning houses often machine up their own guides from Bronze. Perhaps the tuning house you used did that? If you use valve stem seals at the next rebuild, I recommend you use high temperature FluoroPolymer seals. HTH. | ||
| Rocketman |
The guides in my heads , what's left of them, looked like cast iron. Thanks Steve. Rocket | ||
| Steveshakeshaft |
You're welcome, if you want to bounce ideas around that's good! | ||
| Pammy |
If the guides are machined flush(or nearly so) with the ports, I would change them(the guides). Nothing good can come of that. Don't ask me how I know.(remember, I own the ultimate guinea pig bike) We use bronze alloy guides. They're a bit different than stock. | ||
| Rocketman |
I'm just having the same problem rectified on my TVR big valve heads Pammy. Cast iron guides and stainless valves and the guides are flush in the port, just like the guides on my Buell. Nothing good came out of that - almost. Well, I suppose it's given me the opportunity to at least have the seats converted for unleaded petrol. Right now, the TVR is taking a little priority in the hobby stakes, so I'll just get some use out of the Buell this year and think about next winter. In case you're interested, the TVR is going from 138bhp to a projected 200+bhp. Not bad for a sports car weighing 900kg. Thanks for the heads up. Nothing can better the advice of a blonde in burlap pants eh! xx Rocket | ||
| Captainkirk |
Regarding the original question; Rocket was right on the mark, except to add; "Use torque plates". There is no "re-breaking" in rings/cylinder walls once they're glazed (unless, of course, you use J.C. Whitney's Famous "Motor Overhaul Pellets"...drop one in each spark plug hole. Loosens tight rings, tightens loose rings! (At least that's what they claim.....LOL!)  |
