| Author | Message | ||
     Javahed |
X1, ha - ahah ha ha hah ha ohh ha haaa ha ha he he heee ha ahhhhh ha! NOT!!!!!!  Man! If I gotta dig around under my tank one more time :O Thanks Hoot! Ya'll have fun out there - I'll post dyno results soon as I can talk the wife outta the cash  Dan | ||
| Rempss |
We need an icon for "monkey off my back". Removed the PCIII from my bike, about 300 miles of riding without it. First, a little background. I got the PCIII with some other items I purchased from a guy who used to frequent here until he sold his X1, so I decided to use in conjunction with many modifications I added last winter. I have been running a "zero" map for some time now, 3000+- miles. Java, zero map can be found at PC website, 1 for each O2 sensor, use the right one. I have kept the PCIII on the bike to use the 4 wire O2 sensor to record more accurate information on the air / fuel mix than the stock 1 wire O2 sensor can provide. The 4 wire sensor has allowed me to document a lot of information based on many conditions and sensor readings. I have the O2 sensor on its own digital gauge so I can always see its reading. The throttle position sensor, intake air temp sensor and engine temp sensor are all on 1 gauge which can be switched from one sensor to another on the fly. This allows me to read the air / fuel mix and relate it to speed, throttle open position, intake air temp and engine head temp. Like I said lots of documented information. (Too much!) OK, monkey business here. The "zero" map is anything but: - Not 1 check engine light in the last 300 miles, PCIII would set it many times (6-20?) in that many miles. According to Mark (I think that's his name) who makes the Techlusion, his product and the PCIII both cause this annoyance due to the difficulties in communicating with the DDFI system and the way it "reads" things. PCIII tech guy never heard of such a problem? BS - The hot idle "quality" was poor with the PCIII, perfect without, no need to touch the idle adjuster even at very high head temps. - The bike now accelerates much more smoothly through all gears and RPM ranges. - Much faster throttle response, from idle and from cruising RPM's. - Almost no "popping" when decelerating or letting off of the throttle. - The 4000rpm "cough" which I always attributed to the Force pipe - gone. And now to the figures, with the Race ECM only, I have not been able to find any lean spots according to either O2 reading. This is read in combination with many varying inputs from the other sensors in various temperatures, humidity and time of day. It is a bit rich at low RPM while cruising, but not too much. The air / fuel mix registers .850v+ at WOT, which seems to be exactly where I want it to read far a normally aspirated engine. In my opinion, the PCIII is junk on the Buell, maybe a great item on some other FI bikes, but not needed if you have the Race ECM, that should be your first modification. Removal of said junk was well worth getting under the tank once again. I have enjoyed the last 300 miles more than the previous 3000 by and overwhelming amount. If it adds horsepower, it better be 20+ across the board to alleviate all of the aggravation it causes. Blake, bring on the math, based on the above items please show the calculation where "zero" does not equal "nothing"? I have left out the possibility that I have a "bad" unit, but based on some other tidbits of information left here and there, I doubt it. If you like yours, great. These are my opinions based on my findings. If you have had different experiences or would like to add your difficulties, lets discuss it. Jeff | ||
| Rempss |
Need to add 1 more thing - I used to think that the "check engine" light did not set any trouble codes in the ECM, just lit it up, like I said at random intervals for varying periods of time. I had a bunch of historic codes set from various removals of the IAT, BAS, also a lost ground at the ECM sets a lot. So I just figured they were all there from my continuous tinkering with things. Not quite so, after an erase of all of my existing codes and a few rides with the PCIII - codes 23 & 32 set, front & rear fuel injectors. Another erase, codes set again. Again, zero don't equal zero in this case. Jeff Anyone want to buy a slightly used PCIII system with a laptop computer? Will give you countless hours of enjoyment, unless you like actually riding your bike. | ||
| Blake |
Great report Jeff. | ||
| Javahed |
Wow, Well - I have the "not zero" zero map in place. It does seem better than the previous map I had. No check engine lights - before or now. No flat spots, hesitation or coughing. I reckon time (and the Dyno) will tell. I hope I can continue making myself believe that in some way this expenditure was justified have fun! Dan | ||
| Blake |
Dan, You can sell it on eBay for a good price. | ||
| Javahed |
Ha ha  You never know Dan | ||
| Blake |
Plus you learned a good lesson. I hope. I know I did. PCIII is okay for stock module bikes, but race modules have no need of it. At least not until engine performance mods result in well above 100 RWHP. The UJM bikes make good use of the PCIII since they are keeping the stock modules. I suppose a stock Buell module might benefit from the PCIII, but the race module is cheaper right? I know Nallin Racing sees a use for the PCIII; I'll have to ask them when/why. | ||
| Rempss |
The ECM operates a little differently than reported before, it was corrected though. DDFI operates in a closed loop mode at greater than 2500RPM under load, and less than wide open throttle. This allows the ECM to constantly adjust for emissions and fuel economy, based on the six sensor inputs. Open loop is reserved for less than 2500RPM and wide open where a set of predetermined maps provide the needed air / fuel mix regardless of emissions and fuel economy. Need to keep it running at lower RPM and it needs all the fuel it can get while wide open. (Maybe a little rich on the top end with the Race ECM.) I would not regularly use 2500 or less RPM for riding anyway, so operation in closed loop is where most of my riding is. I'm sure yours is too. You might want to take a look at the rough running until warm; a little sounds normal but I would never take notice of it like you have. Has it always done this? Have I read too much "rough" into your post? Jeff | ||
| Richieg150 |
Took my bike thats blowing oil to the dealer.Leakdown test showed 6%,i have the 1250 Nallins kit with total seal rings,millenium cylinders.I took my bike and had it dynoed,and jetted.Ever since I put on the mikuni carb,there has been black on my swingarm from my exhaust!I clean it off and it shows up again!I called the ring manufacturer,he said they have NEVER has a ring failure!He suggested my bike if it was too rich,could have fuel washed the rings and caused them to go bad?I am going to have to take the bike down to see what up inside,my question is ,if my bike jetting is correct,why the black on my swingarm?I never had that with the CV carb! | ||
| Richieg150 |
Have a friend whos bike is SUPPOSED to be correctly dialed in,and he has the same thing with the smoke on the swing arm?If the carb is set up right,should this be happening?If I put back on my CV,any ideas what my main jet size would be?Ive got the big bore kit,but im still running stock heads.After i take the bike apart i will be able to tell if the rings were fuel washed,i will post with the results. | ||
| Jblomberg |
I just put a Vance&Hines carbon fiber exhaust on my 1998 S3T. There is also a hypercharger on there. I have recently been experiencing a huge loss of horsepower with what seems to be a loss of fuel when I am cruising at speeds over 65 mph. The engine will even die when I pull in the clutch, but it will start right back up with no problem. I hear some popping on occasion also. there seems to be no loss of horsepower at lower speeds. I am assuming that this is a carbeuration problem. If so, does it just need a good cleaning, or should I re-jet it, or what? thanks | ||
| Meditr0n |
Ok, I could use some help here. I have a 2001 X1 with a PCIII installed (but not running right now) the wiring seems to have shorted in the harness and the main ignition fuse blows when you hit the starter. I have removed the PCIII and it runs again, I had to do this on the side of the road. The main problem is now that while driving when the bike is cold or still not yet hot it will loose a cylinder. If I pull the clutch and twist it, it usually will go away for a bit but might come back again. I figured it might be the plugs or the fuel filter (only 3500 miles on it) so I changed them today. No change in the beasts' habits. Can anyone help? meditr0n@hotmail.com it is a ZERO after the R THX Doc | ||
| Ara |
Jblomberg: Check your fuel tank vent and also check the screen in the petcock. I think something is causing fuel starvation, and those are the first two places to look. If you find nothing there, pull the float bowl off your carb and look for debris. Russ | ||
| Rempss |
Doc, You did this alongside the road. Now that you are not, go back remove the tank and check ALL of the wiring and connectors. I would suggest removal of the PCIII only moved a possible shorted wire / bad connection to a workable place. It only receives power from the injector leads. How long has the PCIII been installed? Which O2 sensor? Any recent modifications? Any check engine light? PCIII totally removed? The wire to the TPS removed?
How do you twist the clutch while riding? Details!!!! I guess what I am getting at is the need for for the whole story. Example: My bike was running great for X miles, then I added / removed / replaced X, it then ran good (or bad) for X more miles, started to act like Y and a light came on (or no light), etc. Starting in the middle of a problem can be difficult to diagnose over the internet. I use this method here it may help to develop the kinds of thing to look for then what information to include when posting a question. Also, for all DDFI bikes I think adding which ECM are you using, was the TPS reset after installation and is the PCIII (junk in my opinion, ask I'll give you my rant links) being used (map, O2 sensor) would be helpful. Keep us posted with more information. Jeff | ||
| Meditr0n |
Ok, long post to follow. Full story: I bought the bike with about 350 miles on it at the dealer. before I had 1000 on it I had put the on a "Force" exhaust and the PCIII with race O2 sensor using the 10s map. I also put a set of fitch fuel conditioners in the tank. All was fantastic for awhile. 87hp on pavement doing a 5th gear pull on the dyno @ 132mph. 1600 miles: I started "surging at highway speeds". Found out I was breaking exhaust studs. I took it into the dealer they had to change the heads due to the a stud being stuck in the head. 3 weeks later I got the bike back and all was well. 2400 miles: Then the PC3 shorted out. sent the bike to the dealer for diagnosis. they traced it to the PC3 (I had done the tps zeroing after the initial installation) so the dealer unplugged the pc3 and everything was fine again (felt like less midrange power though, very disappointed). 3000 miles: I ran into check engine lights for reason. cruising on the highway 80mph or so, the light would just come on. If I flipped the kill switch for a few seconds then turned it back on everything would reset and it might be fine for the rest of the ride or it might happen again. I have no idea about this????? The dealer keeps putting it off on the pc3 but it is out of the loop right? It also started to buck and "miss" when it is cold or "warm" but once it gets hot it seems to be ok. The twist I was talking about in the earlier post was the throttle. 3400 miles (present time): I JUST changed the plugs, fuel filter, oil and filter. I pulled the pc3 found a few chaffed wires (just like dynojet thought I would) BTW: I followed their instructions for installation funny how they diagnosed the problem over the phone!!! fixed the shorts and reinstalled the pc3 (I would have removed it but I do not have the factory O2 sensor) The bike started and ran (GREAT) for about 30 seconds, it then started to miss and buck again, revved it up an it was fine, then started missing again then died. Got off the road pulled off the pc3 it started and runs now (very rich though). At this point I am starting to think injectors? If it was the tank breather it would run well when cold then go into vapor lock when it got hot right? Could it be electrical (coil?)? I am at my wits end. I am planning at this point if no one has any magic for me to purchase a factory O2 sensor (unless someone has one laying around) and pill the pc3 completely then make the dealer fix it. I can always argue that it was fine before the head change. meditr0n@hotmail.com THX Doc | ||
| Mbsween |
Doc, Maybe a longshot here, but here's my experience. You can retrieve the error codes from the ECM by jumping two pins on the data connector under the seat. The codes will flash through the check engine light. That might give you a better idea of whats wrong. I a similar issue on a 2001 x1 w/o the pciii. Well the surging and near stalling at highway speeds anyways. Two dealers had it 4 times and they came up with nothing. I did the "ECM Dump" and it turned out to be the engine-temp sensor. I could kick myself for letting the bike sit in a shop for almost 4 weeks on a 38.00 part. I have a stock 02 sensor if you want it, but you can get the bosch (p/n is at the top of the page) one for about 25.00 at any auto parts store. I thought the bosch one was easier to install. I have 2500 miles on it works like a champ. And you don't have to wait for shipping. Good luck, keep us posted Matt | ||
| Blake |
Meditr0n, "I also put a set of fitch fuel conditioners in the tank." Firstly, they are snake oil. Secondly, if they have any effect on the fuel it would probably be to goof up your O2 sensor. I have corresponded with Fitch about their fuel catalyst product. I am convinced that it is total BS. Why? Because a catalyst is something that facilitates a chemical reaction. Fitch claims that their product transforms short chain hydrocarbons into more desirable long chain forms. They provide no information on how this magic is accomplished. If the thing is patented, and a valid product, such information would be shared with the customer. Much like some synthetic oil companies share details about their formulations. Sorry, I digress. But if I were you, I'd remove the Fitch junk from your tank. "I had done the tps zeroing after the initial installation" I assume that you are you saying that you personally performed a "TPS Zeroing" as specified by the PCIII instructions? Did that entail adjusting the TPS or simply programming the PCIII? If however, you actually adjusted the TPS (not to be confused with an idle screw adjustment), then you need to take your bike to your dealer and have them perform an actual ECM/TPS Reset. This requires a special scanalyzer and proprietary software that only your dealer can provide. The ECM must be flashed with the TPS voltage for the throttle fully closed (idle screw backed off) condition. If you adjusted the TPS, the ECM value would be incorrect and could cause the problems you are describing. The ONLY solution is to have your dealer perform the required ECM/TPS Reset/Recalibration procedure. Yes, the dealer knows this procedure by the name "TPS Rezero", but in fact it has nothing to do with adjustment of the TPS. I'm not sure, but your existing 4-wire oxygen sensor may work just fine even without the PCIII. You may just need to determine which two of its 4 wires should be connected to the ECM. If you are interested in boosting performance via the EFI, your best alternative is the Race ECM. If you are already running the Race ECM, you have no need for the PCIII. | ||
| Hootowl |
Blake, I don't know if you've ever played with a PC so... There is a provision in the software to set the throttle at zero and WOT. This only pertains to the PC, and not the ECM. It does not involve physically adjusting the TPS. Meditr0n, Yes, get the race ECM and take the PC off. Your bike will run a lot better. | ||
| Rempss |
Doc, Your dealer is correct. The PCIII WILL cause the check engine light to light at random intervals. It has something to do with the ECM pulse sent to the injectors being altered by the PCIII. It is very in the loop - every injector pulse goes right through it. In the case of the 10S map, quite a few of those pulses are changed. Follow your service manual to check for trouble codes and I'll bet the fuel injectors show up. Not because they are bad, but because the ECM knows they did not do what it told them to. My opinions are here on that P.O.S. PCIII. I would ditch it and get the Race ECM ASAP. It will be more than capable of handling the modifications you have made. The PCIII does contain it's own TPS "setting" for it's use as dictated by the stored map. This is completely seperate from the ECM TPS setting. You have the stock ECM, bought the bike with 350 miles? The 500 mile service requires a "reset" of the TPS with the Scanalyzer unit at the dealer. Was this performed? You will need to have this done upon installation of the Race ECM also. Have you adjusted the actual position of the TPS? Need the Scanalyzer again. Don't physically adjust the TPS on a DDFI bike, unless you KNOW what the outcome will be! I am using the 4 wire sensor without the PCIII, running it through a relay so the heater still works. Remember - the 1 wire sensor grounds through the sensor housing but the 4 wire style grounds through the black wire. The Bosch 1 wire sensor is available through any auto parts store - #12014. Before you start replacing things randomly, you need a starting point. There is no magic, just a logical flow from one system to the next. Maybe it is the injectors, but why replace them if you don't have to. Jeffs recommended course of action. About 2-4 hours of enjoyment based on your mechanical aptitude. 1) Remove the PCIII for good. 1A) Fitch Fuel Conditioners - remove, do not speak of them publicly again. I'll poke fun if you do!  2) Install Bosch 12014 O2 sensor as stock replacement. Or the 4 wire through a relay, it will read faster than the 1 wire type. 3) Install Race ECM, almost needed for as free flowing as the Force exhaust is, might be a good time to install a higher flowing intake also. (air filter assembly) 4) Check for trouble codes - if fuel injectors are all that exist, keep in mind that was probably the PCIII. If others exist follow flow charts to remedy the cause of said codes. 5) Have dealer "zero" TPS and remove stored trouble codes. 6) Set static timing per the service manual. 7) Make sure you have no exhaust or intake leaks. 8) Check all wiring for any breaks, and all connections for good continuity. Fix any problems found. 9) Ride, have fun. Matt, What's an "ECM Dump"? Jeff | ||
| Rempss |
When I state:
I am not saying it will cause this to happen to all PCIII equipped bikes. What I am suggesting is that if you have the PCIII and get random lighting of the check engine light with no perceived difference in running condition it probably is the PCIII's lack of ability to communicate with the ECM correctly. Jeff Also, I think I was wrong above. The 4 wire sensor grounds throught the grey wire. I can double check if anyone needs me to. | ||
| Rempss |
Doc, Saw in your profile:
What type of bolts? Hex, cap, 12pt etc. Jeff | ||
| Meditr0n |
The dealer used stainless allen style bolts. I have not had an issue with the exhaust since they did that. | ||
| Meditr0n |
Matt also saw your web page (btw thanks for the images!!!!) I have NEVER gotten more than 135 miles to a tank. Is this another important issue? Thank ALL of you for all the info, I will follow the consenus (remove the pc3 and fuel crap) and start looking for a race ecm. If anyone has more info please keep posting. I will let you all know what happens and keep watching the board. Doc | ||
| Meditr0n |
oops... meant Jeff Sorry | ||
| Blake |
Hoot, Not played with one, but know that. Ain't that what I said? | ||
| Mbsween |
Doc, I saw similar mileage when the engine temp sensor went bad. I went from 170 - 200 miles /tank to 110 - 120 miles/tank. I think 135 is way to low, but then again, if you never let the front wheel touch I suppose you could  | ||
| Madstuka |
I have a 98 S3 with a Mikuni HSR 42 that will not idle. Its become erratic. I've pulled the carb and replaced the seal between the manifold and carb, it had a tear in it. That did not fix the problem. The idle adjuster will bring it back into normal range sometimes, but the idle is always changing. I've purchased a rebuild kit for the carb, will rebuilding it help? I've started tearing the carb apart, is there anything special I should be looking for? Also, I'm wondering if I should pull the manifold from the heads and check to make sure it is sealing. Is there a gasket that I will have to replace between the heads and the manifold? Thanks . Pat | ||
| Rookie |
Something a little more simple... I recently gutted my stock exhaust after it started coming apart. I'm running the stock cv and have not done any of the carb mods mentioned at the top of the page.Would I need to go with a 185 fast(main) to compensate for the lean mixture? Also, when I went to the local Buell dealership to find the above mentioned parts, they said they weren't in their books. Is there a specific part # for the main jet and the N65C needle. To clarify things, I rewelded the stock exhaust...it's louder and lighter. | ||
| Blake |
Forget the NC65C needle. A smaller jet (a 185) would make your bike run even leaner. Most likely the stock main jet is fine. You would probably notice a big performance improvement if you performed the recommended mods, namely idle mixture and 45 pilot jet. |
