| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
My '97 M2 uses DOT 5. By '00 (possibly before) Buell had switched back to DOT 4 though. All the UJM's run DOT 4, must be a reason. DOT 5 sure is hard to find. | ||
| Hootowl |
99's use DOT5. 00 and up use DOT4. | ||
| Leeaw |
What if the fluid looks nice and clear? Should I waste my time changing it, especially since I have never changed brake fluid. I have a 99M2 with 14K miles and am pretty sure it is not the paint eating DOT4. | ||
| X1glider |
You can pick up DOT 5 at any truck stop on any major road. Most of the tractors I worked on used DOT 5. I'd change that fluid, Leeaw, even if it's clear. 3 years is a long time even for only 14k. | ||
| Leeaw |
X1, So why does my service manager say to change it when the fluid looks cloudy. That is what he goes by on his X1 and he has been riding since before my birth. I felt they were not like they were when new, but figured I am just used to them by now. Same question about the forks. They seem mushy and have never been touched. Is it something I can do without specific tools? I get a buzz working on it myself and save money to boot. | ||
| Hootowl |
Quoted from another source... DOT3 brake fluid is the "conventional" brake fluid used in most vehicles. One of the most familiar brands is "Prestone." Advantages: DOT3 fluid is inexpensive, and available at most gas stations, department stores, and any auto parts store. Disadvantages: DOT3 will damage natural rubber brake seals and should not be used in any car suspected of having natural rubber seals DOT3 fluid eats paint! DOT3 fluid absorbs water very readily. (This is often referred to as being hydroscopic.) As such, once a container of DOT3 has been opened, it should not be stored for periods much longer than a week before use. Since DOT3 fluid absorbs water, any moisture absorbed by the fluid can encourage corrosion in the brake lines and cylinders. DOT4 brake fluid is the brake fluid The most familiar brand is "Castrol GT-LMA" Advantages: DOT4 fluid is available at most auto parts stores, and at some (but not all) gas stations or department stores. DOT4 fluid does not absorb water as readily as DOT3 fluid. DOT4 fluid has a higher boiling point than DOT3 fluid, making it more suitable for high performance applications where the brake systems are expected to get hot. Disadvantages: DOT4 fluid eats paint! Small leaks around the master cylinder will eventually dissolve away the paint on your bodywork in the general vicinity of the leak, and then give rust a chance to attack the body of your car! DOT4 fluid is generally about 50% more expensive than DOT3 fluid. Since DOT4 fluid still absorbs some water, any moisture absorbed by the fluid can encourage corrosion in the brake lines and cylinders. DOT5 brake fluid is also known as "silicone" brake fluid. Advantages: DOT5 doesn't eat paint. DOT5 does not absorb water and may be useful where water absorption is a problem. DOT5 is compatible with all rubber formulations. (See more on this under disadvantages, below.) Disadvantages: DOT5 does NOT mix with DOT3 or DOT4. Most reported problems with DOT5 are probably due to some degree of mixing with other fluid types. The best way to convert to DOT5 is to totally rebuild the hydraulic system. Reports of DOT5 causing premature failure of rubber brake parts were more common with early DOT5 formulations. This is thought to be due to improper addition of swelling agents and has been fixed in recent formulations. Since DOT5 does not absorb water, any moisture in the hydraulic system will "puddle" in one place. This can cause localized corrosion in the hydraulics. Careful bleeding is required to get all of the air out of the system. Small bubbles can form in the fluid that will form large bubbles over time. It may be necessary to do a series of bleeds. DOT5 is slightly compressible (giving a very slightly soft pedal), and has a lower boiling point than DOT4. DOT5 is about twice as expensive as DOT4 fluid. It is also difficult to find, generally only available at selected auto parts stores. DOT5.1 is a relatively new brake fluid that is causing no end of confusion amongst mechanics. The DOT could avoid a lot of confusion by giving this new fluid a different designation. The 5.1 designation could lead one to believe that it's a modification of silicone-based DOT 5 brake fluid. Calling it 4.1 or 6 might have been more appropriate since it's a glycol-based fluid like the DOT 3 and 4 types, not silicone-based like DOT 5 fluid. (In fact, Spectro is marketing a similar new fluid which they are calling Supreme DOT 4, which seems less confusing.) As far as the basic behavior of 5.1 fluids, they are much like "high performance" DOT4 fluids, rather than traditional DOT5 brake fluids. Advantages: DOT5.1 provides superior performance over the other brake fluids discussed here. It has a higher boiling point, either dry or wet, than DOT 3 or 4. In fact, its dry boiling point (about 275 degrees C) is almost as high as racing fluid (about 300 degrees C) and 5.1's wet boiling point (about 175 to 200 degrees C) is naturally much higher than racing's (about 145 C). DOT5.1 is said to be compatible with all rubber formulations. Disadvantage: DOT5.1 fluids (and Spectro's Supreme DOT4) are non-silicone fluids and will absorb water. DOT5.1 fluids, like DOT3 & DOT4 will eat paint. DOT 5.1 fluids are difficult to find for sale, typically at very few auto parts stores, mostly limited to "speed shops." DOT 5.1 will be more expensive than DOT3 or DOT4, and more difficult to find. | ||
| Reepicheep |
DOT 4 (that will absorb water) would likely go cloudy when fouled. The DOT 5 is not absorbent, so I would worry about a big puddle of rusty water sitting at some invisible high (or low) spot and being invisible to inspection. With DOT 4 I would agree with your mech and not fuss with it if it is clean, but with DOT 5 I would be pretty paranoid. I think this is the main reason for the advantage of DOT 4 over DOT 5. Both upon contamination will fade and be mushy, but the DOT 4 (having absorbed the water in the mineral oil) will continue to provide oxidation resistance while the DOT 5 (with puddles of water in the silicone) could easily allow rust. Didn't they make a DOT 4.5 or some other sillyness that is the Silicone fluid safe for those types of seals, but with additives to be able to absorb water, to address this very issue? It's all very confusing to me. IMHO. I never had any experience with a DOT 5 system so take my advice with a grain of salt. | ||
| X1glider |
You can wait til it gets cloudy but the old fluid will probably give a little squishier feel. If your service manager says that 3 year old fluid is okay, it's probably more of a sign of his own laziness and lack of attention to his personal bike. It's your ass that riding on those brakes, not his. The M2 forks appear in many ways to be the same fully adjustable forks on my FXDX and the Sportster Sport. HD recommends fluid changes every 20k on forks. I don't know anything about the fork oil properties. I took mine to the shop because I didn't want to buy a spring compressor. It's also put together differently than the non adjustable emulsion type forks, which you don't need special tools for. Just take the legs off and bring them in. I paid 30 bucks to get the fluid changed. If you go to racetech you can find your fork and get their recommended oil and adjustments if you don't want to go with HD oil this time. If you got the cash (99 bucks), you can get the proper spring for your weight as well. Might be worth it while it's apart! I think they come in 170#, 180#, 190# and 200#. | ||
| X1glider |
Great info Jeff! The heavier HDs probably use DOT 5 with the mindset that heat builds up quicker in a 750 lb land yacht with 2 passengers and luggage and the DOT 5 won't "grow" like DOT 4 and change brake feel. I didn't realize DOT 4 took the heat better than 5. I learn something new every day. Good to know I'm not wasting the air we breathe! | ||
| Leeaw |
X1, I do subscribe to the idea of routine maintenance and will look to changing fluids. I am not, however, gungo ho on a complete overhaul to change to DOT4. What I really need is a suspension guy to set up my bike for me. I will check out Racetech and maybe see if a friend of mine can help me. | ||
| Blake |
Lee, Flush out that old DOT 5 brake fluid with new DOT 5 fluid. I have personally witnessed crystal clear DOT 5 in a system where the master cylinder was completely clogged with waterborne crud to the point that the brake would not function AT ALL! Again, looking through the inspection window all looked perfectly clean and clear. Luckily I discovered the problem while loading and unloading the bike. You wouldn't believe the crud that was lodged in the spiral part plunger/piston. It was caked solid. | ||
| Josh |
Anyone know a Russel SpeedBleeder part # for the Nissin calipers? | ||
| X1glider |
I in no way suggested changing from one fluid to the other, nor do I recommend it. Same with going from R-12 to R-134a. Oh wait, these are Buells, not Goldwings. hehe | ||
| Leeaw |
Blake, will do. I believe it. X1, I know you did not mention switching, I was just referencing the post regarding differences of 4 and 5. | ||
| Rempss |
Josh, I have always purchased my "Speedbleeders" from this guy. http://www.speedbleeder.com/ Buell is not listed on the site, but I have always received quick information & shipping from him. Jeff | ||
| Xgecko |
That's rather interesting jeff...It looks rather easy to install and use. However it looks like the Blast already has bleeder valves installeed so all I need is tubing and fluid. | ||
| Henrik |
Lee; change the brake fluid! 3 years is about 2 years too long no matter what the fluid. Your brakes feel mushy either because you have air in the system, or if it happens after some hard riding, because you have water in the system: after it heats up it turns to vapor = mushy brakes. On the SV I bleed (vent and check for air really) the front brakes before every track outing. I've tried speed bleeders, but didn't find it helped me much. Sounds like a good idea, but I honestly find my syringe method works better. IMNSHO  Better to spend your $$ on a front master cylinder banjo bolt with a bleeder nipple. Galfer carries a nice steel bolt. Fork oil: No special tools (other than a way to unload the front end - safely) needed; forks off, fork tube caps off, flip tubes upside-down in a catch pan to drain oil, refill to correct oil level, reinstall fork tube cap, reinstall fork tubes. Henrik | ||
| Leeaw |
Henrik, Would you be willing to email me a little more detail about bleeding the brakes and changing the fork oil? I could borrow a brake bleed kit for a car, but I assume that would not work. I can syringes and would try your method. I have a Centerstand and a scissor jack and have had the front wheel off already, so that is no problem. I don't want to get things apart and then get stuck, but with good instructions, I would like to try. | ||
| Henrik |
Lee: I posted a long diatribe on the Syringe Method earlier. I also just wrote up the fork oil change procedure, but the 'puter crashed and all is gone. I'll be back on Tuesday, and will write it up then. Basically you can just follow the service manual, but there are a few tricks. Henrik | ||
| Josh |
Jeff, I've emailed them before and did not get the question of which one to use resolved. If I can find a place to buy a syringe and can get a prescription for 50ccs of DOT5 past my HMO, I might try Henriks method. Josh | ||
| Leeaw |
Henrik, Perfect! Much appreciated. | ||
| Xgecko |
Thank you Henrik I was gonna ask this same question until I saw you and Leeaw discussing it...That proceedure is yet another from Badweb that gets added into my big service manual. | ||
| Wruffus |
The rear caliper and rotor on my 99 S3 are getting very hot. The brake functions fine. After a eighth mile cruise to my local gas station, I burned my hand when checking tire pressure. I cannot detect any rolling resistance, nor hear any noises. The wheel hub also gets hot. I've purchased fluid, pads, tubing and a syringe. So: How hot is normal? I don't even know if I applied the rear brake on the way to the station, so I know I have a problem but what is normal? What evidence of the problem do you think I should look for? After extending the piston to expose any "grunge", what do I clean with? Is lubrication of the parts that "float" the caliper required? How do I know if the heat has done any bearing/grease damage? | ||
| Blake |
Wruf, Simple things first. Make sure you ride with the balls of your feet on the pegs. Otherwise it's real easy for your right foot, unbeknownst to you, to lightly press the brake pedal. | ||
| Ara |
Wruf, If Blake's right and the problem doesn't happen when you ride with your foot away from the brake pedal, consider adjusting your pedal downwad a quarter inch. Russ | ||
| Stoef |
Finally my PFM dual setup installed....   | ||
| Hans |
That is really cool Stoef. Heeeel mooi! | ||
| Peter |
But Pete, Will you brake later at the end of the straight now........  | ||
| Henrik |
Stoeff; cool set-up. Any idea of the weight difference compared to stock? Henrik | ||
| Stoef |
PPiA, I'LL TRY...!!!!! Henrik, Sorry, don't know exactly.... In direct compare the disks are a little lighter(and smaller) then my EBC's (which are also lighter then stock) and the calipers are lighter then stock for sure (but now I got two of them...). Nevermind, I have PM-rims too and I don't care the extra weight.... (Fat) Stoef |
