| Author | Message | ||
     Racerx |
i have a Guy who does a Stage 3 head job for $400.00 including valves. I have had my heads major port job including bigger back cut valves. Use all stock hard ware put 8k miles on them so far with no problem. Also i pushed 88RWHP with a stock exhaust. Different air cleaner of corse. | ||
| Blake |
Racerx, Would you have us believe that you can get a porting job equivalent to a Nallin Racing Stage-3 job for $400? If so, sorry, I don't believe you. Littledog1, Look at HP output to understand flow capacity. | ||
| V2win |
Just a little input here..... I looked at my notes from 1997-1998. Found this: Brian Nallin-Shrevesport H/D port & polish- $250 valve job - $50 extra machine- $100 total - $400 That was in the days before many knew of Brian and before Stage 1,2 or 3 marketing. Also found ... Tilley H/D Heads ported and polished, valves etc. $600 6-8 weeks turn around time. I can see where if you had an "in" with someone, that $400 is not out of the question for a good setup. | ||
| Racerx |
Thank you V-Twin, Blake would you like me to give you the number to my guys shop? Like V-Twin it is all before marketing not to knock Nallin but it is all marketing. My head guy says that porting the Thunder Storm heads is easy and fun, and has work comming in from Florida, Alabama, even New York. | ||
| Leeaw |
Racerx, I will take that number if you don't mind. I am 100% sure Nallin is top notch, but some of us have other financial commitments. I would appreciate it if you can you give me more details offline. My email is leeaweiss@hotmail.com. | ||
| Blake |
RacerX asked, "Blake would you like me to give you the number to my guys shop?" No, I'd like you to answer my question, "Would you have us believe that you can get a porting job equivalent to a Nallin Racing Stage-3 job for $400?" My guess is that for $400 it would fall short of even a Nallin Stage 1 head porting job. A simple "Porting and polishing" with "valves" falls far short of even a Nallin Stage-2 treatment. You are claiming "I have a Guy who does a Stage 3 head job for $400.00 including valves." Maybe you need to research what the different Nallin Racing Stage-1/2/3 jobs entail. Anyone who is providing the Nallin Racing Stage-3 level of parts/service for $400 is losing a LOT of money every time he/she does so. As to your results, 88 RWHP is not an impressive result from an S1W with a head job. I've seen reputable dyno test results from 100% stock bikes making more power than that. If you want to advertise for your friend, Wouldn't it be proper to take out a banner ad and help defray the cost of running this site? You know, like Nallin Racing and the other sponsors do? Lee, I'd suggest you read about the Nallin Stage-1 treatment and ask RacerX's friend if he can provide the same levels of service. Will he stand behind his work if something should turn out less than acceptable? Does he have championship racing and engine building experience allowing him to understand all the aspects and details that comprise a reliable high performance cylinder head versus those destined to suffer trouble? | ||
| Blake |
Racerx, One more thing I cannot let you get away with saying unchallenged, mainly because it is total bullshit. You said "...not to knock Nallin but it is all marketing." Is winning the ADBA Buell Super-stock drag championship two years in a row "all marketing"? Is winning every single ADBA Buell Super-stock qualifier and every single ADBA race in the '99 season "all marketing"? Is setting record after record (11 total for ET and MPH) in ADBA Buell Super-stock drag racing "all marketing"? Is consistently building reliable Buell engines that continue to push the envelope for street bike performance "all marketing"? | ||
| Blake |
Is spouting off that your friend can provide "Stage 3" headwork for $400 "all marketing"? No, concerning integrity, it's something much less.  | ||
| Daves |
Blake, Your so fun when you get going. Ride to the edge! Dave HD/Buell Cycle Center 4022 Sergeant Rd Waterloo Ia 50701 1-800-342-7539 ext 14 | ||
| Racerx |
Well that HP gain was On a stock M2 with only jetting a K&N air filter and a stock Pipe. The base line reading was 69.9 And i wasn't advertising i was telling some one some information. As for all the researchin all ready have. My guy used to port heads for the Hawaian puch funny car when it broke 300 mph. As for losing money, it is only 60$ for a set of larger valves and seats (thats cost of course he charges more) then about two hours of porting in each head, not including flow testing. Also he has race teams and idividuals send him heads from as far away as Europe. He has a small private shop so he doesn't get as much exposure as some. But hell what do I know. Seems to me by you bitching you are doing the advertising for him.  | ||
| Xrdude |
Wow Blake- first the mathematical treatise proving the value of an electrically driven 'supercharger', now the tirade about somebody you never heard of who does a 'stage 3' porting job- maybe he does a stage 1 and 2 porting job also? Does not make it equivalent to a Nallin job necessarily, but you sure seem grumpy lately. Dog eat your homework? Charlie | ||
| Blake |
Allright, I take back what I said. The heads obviously made a significant improvement. I mistakenly assumed you were talking about your S1W.
What do you think advertising is? I think it would be providing unsolicited information to prospective customers. That's what you are calling "Stage-3" heads?  Just as I suspected. You have indirectly answered the question which you have now twice avoided answering. Ask your friend how much he would charge for the following: 1. Thoroughly inspect and clean the heads to ensure that there are no cracks or flaws. 2. Check/verify all valve spring pressures through the full range of motion; replace springs as required. 3. Porting and balancing within 2% for each head, intake/exhaust ports. 4. Measure, tune, and document flow of intake and exhaust ports. 5. Measure, tune, and document chamber swirl characteristics. 6. Maintain installed spring heights within 0.005" tolerance. 7. Flat mill to ensure an absolutely flat gasket surface and to correct for the small amount of material removed during the blending process. 8. Valves: 1.840" intake and 1.610" exhaust proprietary design, stainless steel, titanium available. 9. Valve Guides: Bronze manganese. 10. Springs: Chromium silicon with titanium retainers and 10o locks, good for street engines with cam lifts up to 0.600". Larger lift springs available on request. 11. Stage-3 heads are good for well over 110+ RWHP in reliable street going form. So you won't answer my question, but you feel okay calling me a bitch? I'd like to meet you in person sometime. You are quite a character. I'm interested in the truth. Call that whatever you want. If you want to continue to claim that a $400 head porting/valve job is equivalent to Nallin Racing's Stage-3 headwork, I think your lack of integrity will be well recognized. | ||
| Bradgross |
very cool info. racerx and blake. Boys take this outside huh? Mickey has questions and you have commandered his thread. To the hall of shame with you!!!  BradG | ||
| Racerx |
Well Blake i said Bitching not that you are a bitch. Yes he thourally ispects the heads, he has all ready done enogh heads that he pretty much Knows what to take off, he does flow them a few times. But i'm done arguing with you and I'm sorry I even came to this board. Blake I appologize for Advertising on you site and ever thinking that a small time guy could ever come close to the all mighty Nallin. Every one has there small starts even Nallin as stated by V twin. | ||
| Spiderman |
Blake he said stage 3 not that it equals a Nallin stage 3 | ||
| Blake |
RacerX, I'm sorry that a debate of the facts has left you feeling upset. I certainly didn't mean to attack you personally. I'm only interested in the facts. When you throw out a price of $400 while implying a level of workmanship and parts equivalent to a "stage-3" job you should be willing to back up that claim. Getting upset because someone challenges your "marketing" is very telling. If you were mistaken, simply own up to it. As to your last post... You are putting words into my mouth. I have no problem believing that your friend is reputable and experienced in performance headwork. My only issue is your claim of "Stage-3" work for a mere $400. You still have not answered my question. And you certainly left unaddressed a BUNCH of the items listed in my post above. In fact you only addressed item #1. As to what "stage-3" headwork should mean... If porting, polishing and valves are stage three, what comprises stages one and two? Back to the topic. Interesting information from Doug Coffey. For the money, it doesn't sound like the Firebolt heads are going to benefit an S1 as much as a good porting job. There are the issues of the bathtub chamber and large squish band and the unknowns as to rockerbox compatibility. Would you not need Firebolt pistons to take advantage of the XB9 head design? Your lightning's pistons are flat tops and would sacrifice compression ratio unless decked to compensate. Not sure if that is a viable solution. It might be. With a stage one porting job you can run your flat tops and save the cost of new pistons/rings/cylinder-honing. Then again, if the heads are coming off, you might as well freshen the top end. Maybe someone can answer these questions? They are great questions! | ||
| Dueller |
Geez Blake....who pissed in your cheerios? And I'm sorry but you did attack RacerX, repeatedly...the guy was just trying to share some of his experiences/info using a tuner/shop with the board. The way I see it he was extremely deferential and respectful of Nallin throughout his commentary (rightfully so)....his only error was to refer to a generic "stage 3" job....last time I checked Nallin didn't have "stage 3" copyrighted...had he substituted port/polish/big valve/flow job maybe you wouldn't be so upset over the semantics. And your apology is very left handed and continues in an arrogant and mean spirited vein...not your normal demeanor. BTW, how much is a banner ad? RacerX...email me the info on your guy jim | ||
| M2cyclone00 |
Blake, in my stage 1 heads from Wes at Cycle-Rama, I've got all the features of Nallin's stage 3 heads (bronze maganese valve guides, etc) except my valves are stock size. I would call that stage 1 because of the stock valve size, but they're not the stock valves. So, maybe it depends on who does the work. Wes also charged me far less than Nallin's stage 1. I think Wes felt bad for me because of some problems that I created on the bike & he wanted to give me a good deal. Actually, it was a really great deal. Dave | ||
| Dueller |
Be careful about using the term "Stage 1" in here, Dave. OOOOPS...my bad...you didn't capitalize it so it might be OK. | ||
| Racerx |
LMAO | ||
| Eightyeight |
I bought Stage4 heads. They come with an exhaust system that will not break and fall off and with inlets the same size and shape as the heads. | ||
| Blake |
Dueller, Welcome to the debate... "Geez Blake....who pissed in your cheerios?" No one. What are you talking about? "I'm sorry but you did attack RacerX, repeatedly." Please enlighten me as to how/where so that I may apologize. "the guy was just trying to share some of his experiences/info using a tuner/shop with the board." No, teh truth is that RacerX refuses to share pertinent information, he simply offers stage-3 headwork for $400. I've asked for more definition; he has not provided it. " The way I see it he was extremely deferential and respectful of Nallin throughout his commentary (rightfully so)" No, he referred to Nallin Racing's products/pricing as "all marketing." You may call that respectful, I'll call it something else. M2Cyclone, Wes and Pammy are great people, first class all the way. RacerX, "LMAO" Glad to see you are still hanging around and have found the lighter side of this debate. Dueller has a point in his levity, this doesn't amount to a hill of beans. | ||
| Racerx |
It is all in what you consider a stage three, What Nallin does for a stage three is very simalare almost identical to what my buddy does. Here is everything that is offered with his stage three service, Bigger valves just a hair over what Nallin does he used stainless unless you ask for titainum, major port job he has done heads since 85 so he doesn't ned to throw them on the bench eight diffrent times, he does flow them about three times in all. He does how ever grind a fin in th intake port to maximize the "swirl" effect of the air/fuel mixture. He uses the the stock retainers unless they are damaged or you state other wise. He will also use the stock springs also unless you ask other wise. Cause unless you have cams you will not need heavier springs. All valves are back cut for flow and valve seals replaced. If you send him your intake he will port to match. And of course he does all the common sense shop duties checks specs and makes sure that the gasket surfaces are flat etc. BTW I didn't call you a Bitch I don't know where you pulled that one out of. | ||
| Blake |
Thank you for the answer RacerX. I must take issue with your statement that "What Nallin does for a stage three is very simalare almost identical to what my buddy does." Really? Let's review the aspects of a Nallin Racing Stage-3 job versus what your friend provides (indicated by  ), and what he does not (indicated by  ) : 1. Thoroughly inspect and clean the heads to ensure that there are no cracks or flaws. (I'm dubious as to the thoroughness of your friend's inspection and cleaning, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt) 2. Check/verify all valve spring pressures through the full range of motion; replace springs as required. (Nallin Stage-1; Stage-2/3 also include high performance springs.) 3. Balancing within 2% for each head, intake/exhaust ports. 4. Measure, tune, and document flow of intake and exhaust ports. 5. Measure, tune, and document chamber swirl characteristics. 6. Maintain installed spring heights within 0.005" tolerance. 7. Flat mill to ensure an absolutely flat gasket surface and to correct for the small amount of material removed during the blending process. 8. Valves: 1.840" intake and 1.610" exhaust proprietary design, stainless steel, titanium available. 9. Valve Guides: Bronze manganese. 10. Springs: Chromium silicon with titanium retainers and 10o locks, good for street engines with cam lifts up to 0.600" at 7,500 rpm. Larger lift springs available on request. 11. Stage-3 heads will support well over 110+ RWHP in reliable street going form. To clarify for those seeking a bargain on headwork... Your friend is providing a porting and big valve job good for stock lift cams and stock rev limits. Springs are not checked/adjusted. High performance springs are not provided. Titanium retainers are not provided. 10o locks are not provided. Bronze manganese guides are not provided. Chamber swirl is not verified. Heads are not balanced within 2%. Heads are not flat milled. The resulting heads would not likely support reliable 100+ RWHP applications and would probably be on par with a Nallin Stage-1 job. As with most things, you get what you pay for. For $400, you are getting a fair deal. What you are not getting is anything resembling a Nallin Racing Stage-2 or Stage-3 head rework. Blake | ||
| Racerx |
Ok seeing as i have a life and can't keep baby sitting this and repeating my self. When i said all the common sense shop stuf that included this crap, Springs Checked Balanced Milled Etc. As for titanum retainers As requested same with the springs and valves. Again re-read my post. Even with it would still be cheaper. The only thing i dont see is the 10 degree locks and as for the maganese guides he does use those. And as for the 7500 rev do you want your Buell goin that high into the rev limit? | ||
| Blake |
Oops, sorry I missed the ending comments. Kinda funny how you keep adding stuff though. What is the price after adding all the optional stuff to make the job comparable to a Nalline Stage-2 or 3 job? I'm sure it's not the same $400 that you originally claimed is it? Why can't you just be honest and just admit that $400 won't get anywhere near a Nallin Stage 2 or 3 job? Because that is what you implied originally. "And as for the 7500 rev do you want your Buell goin that high into the rev limit?" Absolutely, as a proof test on the dyno. Then I set the rev limit at 7,000 rpm and am assured of a long prosperous valvetrain life. As to the "bitch" comment... I had let that go. No big deal to me. But since you bring it up again, "Seems to me by you bitching..." I'm pretty certain you were clearly referring to me as a "bitch". After all is not one who is riding a rider, running a runner, drinking a drinker, wanking a wanker...? I can see your point, but I much prefer "a**hole". Besides, you might consider that such a comment reflects more on the user than the person to whom it is directed. I need keep telling myself that same advice. I agree, I'm tired of this debate. | ||
| Racerx |
Seems to be the only thing you let go. This is my last post. I'm gonna go tired of your one sidedness. Instead of askin me how in a calm rasional way and saying "hey Nalin does this, does you buddy?" There are a few differences yes way past a Stage 1 meybe you could even call it a stage 2 -1/2 who cares. You have a I'm nevcer wrong complex and cut my buddy down where evr you could find a week spot. Stuff like swirl patters unless you are dra racing ever day of the week come on and a stock head can handle 100+ RWHP so thats nothing special. To all Good night | ||
| Dueller |
Blake... How about one who is carping a carp; hawking a hawk; hogging a hog; dogging a dog; joking a joke; jogging a jog; switching a switch; hitting a hit? Lighten up folks....I'll get back to you later guys. jim | ||
| Blake |
RacerX, "onesidedness"? Call it whatever you want. I simply want the honest facts. "Instead of askin me how in a calm rasional way and saying "hey Nallin does this, does you buddy?"" You've got to be kidding me. That is exactly what I requested. I specifically requested that you "Ask your friend how much he would charge for the following:" and then listed the parameters describing a Nallin Racing Stage-3 job. By not responding and continuing to argue in support of your original statement, you leave the impression that you want us to believe $400 will buy us a headwork equivalent to a Stage-3 Nallin job. "Stuff like swirl patters unless you are drag racing ever day of the week..." No, it's called optimizing and verifying performance. It works just as well for street engines as it does for racing engines. "... come on and a stock head can handle 100+ RWHP so thats nothing special." I disagree. Getting 100+ RWHP is nothing special?  Rocket? You want to chime in here? | ||
| Rempss |
OK I need to chime in. Racerx, Please come do "nothing special" to my bike. I've already spent  Come on don't give up a good discussion.  Jeff |
