| Author | Message | ||
     Reepicheep |
The "Crankcase Oil Seal" is the part that keeps the pressure from the crankcase from bleeding into the transmission area, which in turn prevents transmission fluid from being sprayed out the transmission vent, which in turn prevents your back fender and tire from being hosed down with lubricants during hard riding. Note this is a pretty easy part to get at, just pull the primary cover, remove the clutch pack as an intact assembly, and pull the stator cover at the same time. You probably want impact tools, but it is an easy job. Anyway, when I look at my 2000 parts catalog, I see the thing on the crankcase page (page 10 and 11), illustration index 27, part number 35151-74, OIL SEAL. I get one from my local harley dealer while I have the tranny out anyway, and go to install it. I have minor drooling problems occasionally, not bad, but enough to replace the seal. F&S Buell (Dayton) has it in stock (God bless 'em). I was so happy about that, I bought $450 of other transmission parts from them :/ So I go to install it last night. I was tired, a little depressed, and annoyed. I have too many broken things around me right now, entropy is winning, and I take it personally. (Note to self... under this state of mind, go ahead and fix computers and appliances, but do not attempt to fix motorcycles) Sure enough, the seal is aged badly and cracking. But there is another part stuck to the top of it, holding the rubber seal in. Kind of a metal cup, with a lip on the inside. Almost like a bearing race of some kind installed backwards. It presses the rubber seal (part number above) in place. The thing was wedged in there TIGHT. I tried all sorts of things to get it out, including a screw with a hook machined into the head. I pulled hard enough to bend the screw, and fold out the lip, but this "retaining cup" was not going anywhere. Finally, I just got annoyed and wedged a small screwdriver between the cup and the crankcase mating surface where it is wedged in, and bent the cup inwards to where I could grab it with needle nose pliars and rip it the rest of the way out. The crankcase is REALLY soft aluminum, so this left a mark, but I don't think this was part of a sealing surface, rather it was just a surface that held the cup in place, that then pushes the rubber seal (that DOES do the sealing further down) in place. I should be able to just sand it smoothish, fill the gouge with a little RTV before pressing in the new seal and retaining cup, and I think I will be good to go. But the parts manual does not show this retaining cup, it stops after the rubber seal. Anybody got a part number? And was there a way I was missing to get that cup out without scratching up that really soft aluminum crankcase surface where it seats? I suppose you could have used some sort of reversed pulley remover, but you would have to have one strong enough to get the cup out, but small enough to fit in there, and you would have to hope the lips on the cup did not just fold out... all of which looked pretty unlikely to me. Thanks Bill | ||
| Mikej |
"when I look at my 2000 parts catalog" The oil seal was updated since your parts catalog was published, depending on the publication date. There is also a new tool to install it. A competant dealership should have informed you of this when you bought the new seal. I believe the information is at the top of one of the knowledge vault sections. I think the new seal came out in 2001 or so. I could be wrong and may have confused this seal with a different seal. Are you certain your seal was installed correctly? Could it have been an aftermarket seal? | ||
| Reepicheep |
I am the second owner of the bike, so I can't say for sure, but I have no reason to believe the original owner did much of anything (he only had it 3000 miles). I went to the dealer with just a part number for the seal, I did not ask them what I needed, just asked them for a part (which they had and they gave me). Can't really blame them for giving me what I asked for. I will drop back by today and get the "other part", or the correct seal, whatever their updated parts manual shows. I will try and get a part number and post it here. Is the special tool an install and removal tool, or just an install tool? I don't know how I was supposed to get that old part out cleanly without some sort of specially built assembly. Thanks for the info Mike. | ||
| Mikej |
Not too certain about the new tool, just that someone who had a seal go bad at a past Homecoming here a few years ago said the dealership was waiting on the new installation tool at that time. I don't know if the new seal requires a different removal process. Thankfully I haven't had one go bad yet. Actually my M2 has been fairly reliable apart from speedo sensors and pickup trucks.  | ||
| Reepicheep |
Speedo sensors I can help you with, pickup trucks? You are on your own!  Thanks. | ||
| Mikej |
Yep, that's pretty much the same story I got from his insurance company too. That story, shall we say, is still being written.  | ||
| Mikej |
Here's a link to Neil's crank seal info, sounds like the one you found in your bike. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3842&post=68168#POST6 8168 | ||
| Henrik |
Bill; the installation tool is install only. No puller necessary. I can't recall what metal cup you're referring to?? I did the seal install earlier and snapped some pictures in the process: http://isk-institute.com/henrik/Shaft_Seal/FrameSet.htm I wrote up what I did in those pages as well. These are the correct part #s: Seal: 35151-74A, $7.40 Spacer: 40240-89, $6.75 Henrik | ||
| Reepicheep |
<insert sinking feeling>... it's the green thing in your first photo... (snipped and posted here)...  It looks parkerized for any of those other fans of WWII firearms. I tried to get the seal out from behind it, but there was no way it was coming out with removing that ring. Did you manage to get the rubber seal out without removing that metal piece? AAACCCK! Tell me you removed this thing... | ||
| Reepicheep |
Just got home and dug through the garage, I think I see the confusion now. I really had no business touching any tools last night, I was exhausted. The metal ring I was referring too *was* the old seal, it is a metal outer ring and a rubber inner section, all bonded. It's just an old style seal. The new style seal is all rubber. Thats the confusion, there is only one part, it used to be rubber and metal bonded, the new one is all rubber. Thanks for the great shots Henrik! That shows me the tool I need to make. (breathing big sigh of relief) Bill | ||
| Tripper |
This is interesting. My 98 S1 has twice recently puked tranny fluid out the vent, during 80mph + riding. Thank God I have the rear fender installed! So is this an indication that the crankcase oil seal has expired? Is there other troubleshooting techniques I should employ, or just rip into it and change it now? | ||
| Henrik |
Tripper; if you're not overfilling the primary, the puking *could* be due to a leaky seal. Henrik | ||
| Henrik |
Bill; happy you got it sorted out Henrik | ||
| Reepicheep |
Hoser... what did the main drive gear removal tool you built up look like? My "rev 1" tool was pathetically underbuilt, and collapsed before getting the assembly out. Am I doing something wrong, or is the amount of pressure required to pop that assembly into the crank case (with main belt pully removed of course) somewhere between "scary" and "terrifying"? I was using a half inch nut on a 5/8th inch threaded rod, neither the nut or the rod looked well when I gave up. | ||
| Philip |
i have found that it helps to put a generous amount of anti-seize on the nut and threaded shaft of pullers. keeps em from galling. | ||
| Mbsween |
Tripper, Mine started with the occasional leak, then the profound Niagara Falls type stuff about 800-1000 miles later. This is what it looks like when its bad, and yes it makes for some interesting slides, especially in the rain The X1 Valdez Matt | ||
| Reepicheep |
Got the seal installed easily last night. Instead of the spiffy tool Henrik used, I got a piece of copper pipe (1.5" diameter as I recall) and cut one side lengthwise, and carefully deburred and smoothed the end. $1.96 at Lowes, 60 seconds with a hacksaw, 3 minutes with a file. The pipe was just a hair small to start with, and with the slit you can bend it open just a shade (like 1/8th inch) and it is a perfect fit into the seal. Then I just gently tapped it in tight. | ||
| S1hooligan |
Any chance your instructions are still available for this henrik? | ||
| Shot_gun |
My question is have any of you all looked to see what color your trans oil was when you drained it? I'm pretty sure for the last 25k when I drained my trany fluid it has been the same color coming out as going in(change it at 5k just like the good book says). I just changed it now and it was black and about 3-4 quarts came out. I know only one goes in so I'm guessing my crank seal is gone or is there another possibility? Anyone? | ||
| Reepicheep |
Shotgun... The only three possibilities I could think of are: 1) Crank Seal (engine oil being blown into primary). 2) Carb Needle (not sealing and allowing gas into crankcase, which thins oil, which gets past crank seal, which it shouldn't anyway) 3) 4 year old with a garden hose spraying water under tail section. In other words, it is more then likely the crank seal. The discoloration might be a result of a stator self destructing, but that would not explain the extra fluid. When my crank seal was leaking, I got lots of burps out the tail section, but not a lot of discoloration. The crank seal is a pretty easy / cheap job. | ||
| Shotgun |
Shot_gun, what Reep said. He's got a good procedure and photo's in the KV. It is surprizing though that the extra oil did not exit the tranny thru its overflow. ??? | ||
| Shot_gun |
OHHHH it overflowed alright. I was doin a little dirt tracking on asphalt thats when I knew something was amiss  . I just bought a new seal and gasket I'll have at it tonight if my wife gets back in time. REEP. I don't have a 4 year old spraying water under the tail. I have a 2@1/2 year old filling dadys muffler with water from the garden hose!!( Ihave the American Sport Bike ehaust that comes out on the side now) Thanks for your input! | ||
| Shot_gun |
Ok I got it apart and the old seal hsa been spit out and chewed up by the magnets in the "flywheel"? So which way is it supposed to be installed flat side out or flat side in. I think it should be flat side out but I can't tell because I have no reference point to tell. I can't really tell from Henrik's pics. | ||
| Reepicheep |
That explains the whole leak thing! Look for nicks in your stator wiring (the thing with all the lacquer covered wires wrapped around it). If they are nicked, your stator will be shorting out in a month and you will be right back in there, replacing the stator. It's hard to imagine that seal getting chewed up, and not damaging your stator. Aftermarket stators are $80 or so, the Harley part is a little pricy at over $120 as I recall. At least you did not have trouble getting the old seal out! That was the hardest part for me. The seal goes in such that the point of the V points into the engine. The install "tool" goes inside that V to press it into place. I made my install tool from a split piece of copper pipe from Lowes that was filed smooth. There is a picture of it in the knowledge vault. Make sure you put the spacer in first, it is annoying (but possible... thanks for the tip Aaron) to work it into position after the seal is in place. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Any news Shotgun? How's your stator look? | ||
| Shot_gun |
It looks like it had it had metal rolling around inside it. The whole thing is well knicked. I cleaned up the exposed wires and put epoxy on them. I guess we'll see how it goes. I checked the charging out and so far so good. By the sounds of it I put the seal in backwards though. I tried that link to your tool but it didn't come up. I used a piece of stainless milk pipe to install it. It's all together now and I've rode it the past two days and haven't"used" any oil. Right now it's my only vehicle until I get my wife's van fixed so I can get my car back. Then I'll take it apart and reinstall the seal. edited by shot_gun on May 20, 2004 | ||
| Reepicheep |
Hey, if it seals, it seals. I would leave it alone until it starts leaking again... or until I am back in there for some other reason (like a baked stator  ) | ||
| Hoser |
Bill's right , you can put the seal in either way ,I have installed them both ways as an experiment . The way the manual shows , with the lip out , some would argue that this is wrong , and when you think about it the spring should be on the side which has greater pressure . | ||
| Shot_gun |
Thats what I thought as a logical way to install it. Mabey I'll let it ride we'll see. I put just a very light film of loctite on the metal part of the seal to give it some staying power. I guess only time will tell. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Well, Henrik was right. If you recall our previous discussions on the topic, Henrik took the time and money to get the special seating tool that installs the crank seal. I, in contrast, carried the seal over to home depot and bought the closest sized copper pipe I could find and slit it lengthwise to let it become the perfect size. So far so good, that worked well. The problem is that the factory tool also controls seating depth, mine did not. So I gently tapped the seal in... but did not know how far to seat it. When in doubt, seat it deep, right? Wrong. After a few thousand miles, the seal was cut through by the bearing it had been pressed against, and I was spewing tranny oil again. I found this when I went to install a new seal last night, and managed to get the new seal installed crooked, which means I go out and get *another* one today and try again tonight more carefully. I had limited time last night and was rushing too much trying to get it done in one sitting. Live and learn. So anyway, the question has come up before if the seating depth really matters, and the answer is yes, if you are putting the cupped part of the seal towards the engine. If you put the cupped part of the seal away from the engine, it probably matters less, as the bearing probably won't cut through the actual seal and make a hole. But again, there is probably no reason to pound that thing in so deep that it is pressed against the bearing. I'll try rebuilding my home built setup tonight and solder on another section of copper pipe with "ears" to act as a depth stop. I also managed to mangle the shifter shaft seal. I have probably had that primary cover off 20 times and never replaced the seal, and felt guilty, so tried to replace it this time. It also was driven in crooked, and probably backwards, and was destroyed. Geesh. Somebody needed to intervene and tell me to drop the tools and slowly back away from the motorcycle... In general, do the spring rubber band part of the seals get installed on the higher pressure side of the seal? That would be my assumption... |
